How come this game got a mechanic to avoid trash mobs????

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Originally Posted by Vactus

It's already been said, but apparently it's worth saying again. Trash aren't a challenge. I farm with an i80+ group most of the time and it's boring going one pull at a time. IF I use DF or DR then I'll do a mostly normal run. Maybe two pulls at a time, but it depends on the group. I never SR in the DF/DR. PF/Static runs I'll SR the hell out of stuff because farming 1500 myth is boring hell.

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Sorry but what do you expect just fight 3 bosses and the end? that's not a MMO that's a flash game.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Sorry but what do you expect just fight 3 bosses and the end? that's not a MMO that's a flash game.

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Huh? Flash game? If that's your MMO criteria then FFXIV isn't an MMO due to CT, Coil, Primals, etc. all of which have few to no trash mobs at all. And, honestly, I don't even know if I'm directly commenting on the point you're trying to make, because I really can't figure out your point.

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but if you don't like speed runs then don't join in them. Speak up and say no if it's a DF group. If everyone but you wants to do it, you're free to leave. Another option you have is to make your own PF group that clearly states no speed runs/big trash pulls.

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Originally Posted by Razzle

That's not how you speed run :)



Oh, why so?

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But thats what I see when I decide to do a duty finder group all day everyday. On that note they spend more time and effort trying to lockout the last trash before the first boss then it takes juzt to kill them. If we wipe guess what more time wasted. Dont blame the healer blame the tank. If they can't take heat why they in boiler room?

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Originally Posted by Cap75

Huh? Flash game? If that's your MMO criteria then FFXIV isn't an MMO due to CT, Coil, Primals, etc. all of which have few to no trash mobs at all. And, honestly, I don't even know if I'm directly commenting on the point you're trying to make, because I really can't figure out your point.

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we aren't talking about Single boss runs are we they are talking about trash <--- in dungeons why would you even bring up single bosses when this has nothing to do with that?
they are talking about skipping through dungeons without fighting the monsters.

Basically bosses have minions always in games they set their minions up to guard them on the way up even if they are useless you gonna have to deal with them.

warcraft 3 I can only imagine if that RTS didn't have small troops running around just go to the end kill boss go to next place kill boss and be done with the game no story no nothing. I think SE needs to make some ground rules for the forums about what people can post cause these post are going overboard.

Reasons I don't avoid them is because I am trying to EXP off of them, There's better ways to get myth if that's their reasoning to speed run a dungeon. like on AV and they just totally waste 50-100k exp because they don't wanna wait for the Morbol seedlings to pop that give roughly 4.5k exp per seedling, instead they kill them and I only get 400 exp.. REALLY?! -.-

Explain to me why we should kill every trash mob in the joint? I should stop to kill two mobs that I can just as easily lock out of the boss room? Were you around for the original AK SR? That was literally fighting just the bosses. You can't do that anymore in any dungeon. Want us to kill trash? Give me a reason to do so. Like door locks that are currently in place or something else. Other than some gil, no trash mob is actually worth killing unless it unlocks the boss or next section. Burn what you need, otherwise you're just wasting time or wanting to spiritbond. SB is the only reason I could see wanting to kill everything i.e. T3 of Coil.

Let's talk BrayHM since that's the new hotness for SRs. There are up to four pulls that are skipped. The 3 birds near the first bosses door, the two adds at that door are easily locked out, the raptors to the left of the second section and the last Couerl before the final boss. Two of those guard a chest. The raptors are easily avoided by having someone run to the chest and back down and to the boss door when Brayflox blows the rock. So that locks us out of a treasure chest that isn't worth much. I can do BrayHM in just about 10mins or so if I have a SR group ready for it. Otherwise in DF/DR it's treated like a SR ONLY in the fact that we skip stuff. We still kill all the needed trash just at a slower pace because DF/DR.

Edit: You mention them being minions and comparing it to WC3. WC3 is a very different genre and is a single player game. This is an MMO which by nature is grindy as hell and people want to complete things as quick as possible.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Reasons I don't avoid them is because I am trying to EXP off of them, There's better ways to get myth if that's their reasoning to speed run a dungeon. like on AV and they just totally waste 50-100k exp because they don't wanna wait for the Morbol seedlings to pop that give roughly 4.5k exp per seedling, instead they kill them and I only get 400 exp.. REALLY?! -.-

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That's a very different scenario. If you're still leveling, then most mobs aren't skipped and dungeons are speed runs. AV farming is another form of SR when it's the first room only. Which is something I've never done because I leveled during the good ol FATE grinding days last fall.

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Originally Posted by Macka

But thats what I see when I decide to do a duty finder group all day everyday. On that note they spend more time and effort trying to lockout the last trash before the first boss then it takes juzt to kill them. If we wipe guess what more time wasted. Dont blame the healer blame the tank. If they can't take heat why they in boiler room?

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IF that is happening then it's a bad group anyways and shouldn't be doing SRs.

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Originally Posted by Vactus

Edit: You mention them being minions and comparing it to WC3. WC3 is a very different genre and is a single player game. This is an MMO which by nature is grindy as hell and people want to complete things as quick as possible.

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Yeah my point exactly, You want to complete things quick, Square Enix does not want you to blow through content quick is why its set up this way, which mmo have you ever played that had you walk straight to a boss without fighting something?

Minus single bosses those do not count do not bring up primals there is no walking needed. Do not mention popping a Boss either this is only about dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Vactus

That's a very different scenario. If you're still leveling, then most mobs aren't skipped and dungeons are speed runs. AV farming is another form of SR when it's the first room only. Which is something I've never done because I leveled during the good ol FATE grinding days last fall.

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Most dungeons they don't, but on AV for some reason, some parties just don't care and kill them before they hatch. I mean I don't expect them to kill EVERY mob, but when it's something that would net me 5k a pop I kinda hope they do wait, or else I am losing out on quite a bit of exp.

Killing them before they hatch I feel is a "form" of avoiding mobs (easy to kill gives, less exp, and they don't want to wait).

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Yeah my point exactly, You want to complete things quick, Square Enix does not want you to blow through content quick is why its set up this way, which mmo have you ever played that had you walk straight to a boss without fighting something?

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None, but if I can burn through them as quickly as possible I will. The only reason people don't SR is they either don't want the hassle and possible failure or they're undergeared. I'm i93 WAR/89SCH/87DRG. I'm not going to go about the dungeon is a slow casual manner and kill absolutely everything in there. SE may not want us to burn through the content, but it's stupidly easy and barely a challenge at the gear level required. Even in WoW people would skip stuff is possible in dungeons/raids (haven't raided since Wrath so I could be behind) or bring high AoE classes to burn it down asap. The only reason trash is there is to slow you down. That's it. If they really want us to not blow through it so quickly then up the challenge or give trash a reason. Hell go as far as make it like FFXI where things took forever to kill, but people will always find a way around or through as fast as possible. Tera, kill what is needed and get to boss. WoW, kill what we have to and skip if we can (admittedly a bit more difficult depending on the dungeons). MxO hit and run tactics and sac pulls. RFOnline... stand around and do a skill :/ GW2, unless you were doing PvP, skip what you need or burn it as fast as possible.

Humans always find the fastest way possible to clear content. FFXIV is far from difficult when it comes to dungeons.

I prefer speedrunning with people I trust, competent people; i.e. not when I'm using the DF and getting any random party members. I'll make an exception on the PF and hope that the people advertising for a speedrun there are up to snuff, and normally they are.

And this is the crux of the issue adressed by the TC: I believe a lot of people use the Duty Roulette for the bonus and put pressure on the other players to play it like they want it to be played. The whole idea behind the Duty Roulette was to fill in groups that needed extra players on the DF; and typically also help new players. When you enter a duty via the Duty Finder, especially Duty Roulette, you should always take care to figure out what the other people in the group want out of the dungeon. I make a point of asking people if they want to clear the entire dungeon, obtain all loot, or make it fast. When the group agrees to making it fast, I gauge their gear and maybe check their search info to see if they've played a lot of different jobs and have a good grasp of the game in general, this helps me judge how fast we can go, how much we can risk. Speedruns are a case of risk (wiping and ultimately taking longer than average or failing altogether) versus reward (fast completion for maximum rewards). There is no one single way to speedrun anything, even though there are some general conventions, again more reasons for me to prefer a private, closed group for it, and not involving any strangers.

I feel a large deal of contempt towards players who force awful speedruns in any dungeons without taking any of these factors into account (willingness, experience, and gear) that often do end up causing wipes and taking longer than a normal run where you kill most of the trash mobs, and moreso when they get whiny if things go wrong because of their own personal failure to properly assess the situation and the group.

I stopped using the DR lately because the people I'm encountering there are extremely frustrating. They disrespect and ignore the needs of new players or even bully them into speedruns or skipping cutscenes. There's little I can do to support a new player in Praetorium if 6 people want to speedrun it and give fuck-all about the newbie who's actually playing a Final Fantasy game to experience the story.

I'd wager that most players who are deep enough into the game that they have any need to speedrun anything can easily assemble full parties with LS or FC mates and do whatever the hell they want in any duty without bothering anybody else in the Duty Finder. I find it ridiculous how little respect they show their fellow players in a multiplayer game when they go into a DF party and feel entitled for everybody else to play the way they want.

Here's my appeal to the community: when you use the DF or DR, please go into it expecting to help someone else out, not yourself. That bonus reward was put there for a reason.

If you already do so: Thanks, and have a nice day!

Sometimes I wonder if it's server issue or what, seems like in Tonberry I hardly see such jerks.

In DF/Roulette no one rushes the tank. We just follow whatever the tank does, since it's like a "culture" thing that tanks sets the pace. If the tank avoids a couple of avoidable mobs, we'll follow. If he decides to kill it (like some of the really avoidable Dullahans in WP), we'll just kill it.

Sometimes in low level dungeons, the i90 synced tank ask the other players who are not lvl 50 if they want to skip mobs or they want to kill everything for XP. Really nice of them. Sometimes I really wanted to end quickly but if the dudes needs the XP I'll just kill it - anyways the moment I entered the DF I expected a 30-40mins run average.

And sometimes if the tank sees the correct party composition and that players are well geared, he will ask the grp if we want to pull multiple packs.

No drama mamas.

SR's are mostly ingenious way of dealing with dungeons efficiently, It shouldn't be frowned upon. However, what is important is being considerate of other players when in DF. Ask politely if everyone is ok with it or are willing to learn how its done before charging in and expecting to do an SR all the time. Trash kills do count as an achievement in the logs (5K/10K/50K kills etc.) and like in Brayflox, coeryl furs, raptor skins/shanks (sometimes even HQ) are at least sellable items if not basic crafting mats for crafters plus of course some gil. Unfortunately, buying atma books and upgrades require so much myth tomes that it makes everyone cranky when not being amassed quickly with the least effort possible.

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Originally Posted by i2agnarok

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Yes, surprisingly, some people do actually like to stop and smell the roses along the way. :)

One day you can feel like speed runs, another day you just wanna relax and slow down. There is nothing wrong with that.

Like I said, it's only a chore if you make it one. It's all a matter of perspective.

There is no real issue here. People just like different things, that shouldn't be surprising.

As a healer I sometimes enjoy it when the tank grabs every mob in the dungeon and I just spam heal like crazy popping every cooldown.
But the hardest part is not knowing when the tank has pulled enough, sometimes I expect him to pull more and he gets his first heal too late and dies.

I prefer when the tank grabs like 2 monstergroups each time. It's not too easy to heal so I actually get do something (If the tank goes for one group only regen is enough to keep him up, and I don't like dpsing as a healer. I picked healer to be a healer, I don't want to hit the cute monsters :()

Just add an incentive to kill trash mobs without going down the pretty prizes path.

Make it anything you dont kill shows up at the boss, or kill at least 90% of mobs or they show up at boss.

Skip them if you will but prepare for punishment/youtube moment for e-points.

Not everything should hand you a legendary treasure just because you manhandled it.

When I tank, I look at party make up and ask how they would like it to be handled.
When I dps, I listen and go with the flow.
When I heal, if I feel like I may not be able to pull off healing a huge mob I'll ask for smaller group pulls.

Common sense, being courteous, and doing your best to get along with others and work together to achieve your goals. Really not that hard unless you just enjoy the drama. Don't feel like speed running today? Maybe avoid the popular speed running spots if possible, do things with friends if you want to take it nice and easy, there are a variety of ways to approach the situation. Also it isn't actually a "mechanic" of the game for people to speed run, it's a player choice, and we live in the I want it now times. SE does try to find ways to cut off speed running, but there will always be a way around whatever method they come up with unless they build each room in a dungeon like Halatali Hard mode's humanoid party mobs section.

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Originally Posted by Vactus

Even in WoW people would skip stuff is possible in dungeons/raids (haven't raided since Wrath so I could be behind) or bring high AoE classes to burn it down asap. The only reason trash is there is to slow you down. That's it.

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Trash is there to help pace the dungeon itself. Running long corridors to bosses and only bosses would make a dungeon incredible boring.

That said, since you mentioned WoW, multi-pulls were NEVER the norm and instead are what "crazy" tanks would do. These would be guys overgeared for the instance using cooldowns and trinkets to pull it off. The trash packs were at least designed with a kill order and threat levels in mind. Even the "easy" dungeons in WotLK were like that, with Cata and Mists dungeons following that concept. The only mobs you'd skip was stuff not directly in your path. The side mobs in Pit of Saron come to mind. The packs in the other platforms in Halls of Lightning also come to mind.

Instead what we have here is sac pulls and lockout abuse. Both scream "not-intended".

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If they really want us to not blow through it so quickly then up the challenge or give trash a reason.

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Your reason for killing trash: it's there. Challenge has nothing to do with it because chances are you'd still look for a way to cheese the content. It's more a matter of the developers implementing trash in a way that you have to face the mobs while reducing the chances of skipping mobs. I guess zone drops would also help, except they made all loot come from treasure chests so that's not going to work.

Is this thread really complaining about AoE'ing large groups?
That shit is the most fun a BLM can have!

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Your reason for killing trash: it's there. Challenge has nothing to do with it because chances are you'd still look for a way to cheese the content. It's more a matter of the developers implementing trash in a way that you have to face the mobs while reducing the chances of skipping mobs. I guess zone drops would also help, except they made all loot come from treasure chests so that's not going to work.

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They can simply make mobs drop chest thou. Like how in Brayflox HM, in each zone you have to kill all the illumanti goblins for the key to drop, they could simply not directly placing the treasure chest in the zone, but to make you kill all the mobs and when the last mob is killed, the treasure chest will appear.

People should just stop moaning and get on with it...

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Originally Posted by Macka

But thats what I see when I decide to do a duty finder group all day everyday.?

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I also do Duty Finder all day everyday, and that rarely happens. Usually when the party descides to SE the runs are smooth and locking the enemies works to make the run faster (I also main a WHM)

I'd like to see bosses that summon reinforcements. The reinforcements come from the trash pool. If you skipped a bunch of mobs, the boss will call in all those mobs as reinforcements, making the fight much harder/impossible. If you kill everything or mostly everything, then the boss' reinforcement pool is very low.

If you want to speedrun, expect to lose all that time you saved fighting that boss' reinforcements. If you prepare for the fight and kill most of the mobs, sure it takes awhile, but you save time in the boss room only fighting a few mobs.

BTW, speedruns suck. Got enough of that BS in 1.0.

This is a topic where I'm sorta arrogant. I'm the tank, we go at my pace or you can leave. Usually my pace is faster than normal, but not a speedrun. Really, are people complaining about losing 3 whole minutes in a dungeon run? Really? My Brayflox runs are usually around 12-15 minutes. This is with new people and explaining the fights.

It's pretty ironic that the majority of Speedruns I have been in have failed because the tank has pulled too many monsters, which results in a slower run than if we had just gone at normal speed.

Shortly after people start blaming one another, names are called and the rest of the run either becomes very uncomfortable or ends there and then.

Speed runs are the worst.

I really feel sorry for people trying to gear up through DF.

Leeeroooy Jeeeeenkiiiins, would be a great tank in this game XD