Crafting Needs a Place in Endgame Raiding

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

What you're describing is not unlike how you have to obtain your pre-relic. An item required to craft it was a dungeon drop, needed to be crafted and melded. However in reality there are listings on the market board for the whole thing pre-made and ready to be turned in for a handsome sum of gil.

This is what would happen if you made it a part of the best gear, unless you made everything BoP which would then be useless for dedicated crafters because there's no market in that. This is why crafting will always be second-fiddle in gear progression, because having a gil shortcut to gear with a RMT economy is practically pay 2 win. There's a market for crafters out there already and it is sufficient and stable.

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If you want to make the point that the game doesn't want a relevant economy because they want to combat RMT, I won't argue (that may be the case actually).

I wouldn't exactly call this game's economy "sufficient and stable," though. In creating a market that items are incredibly abundant and most are in low demand due to so many better/easier to obtain options, it definitely keeps everything cheap and accessible which can be great to combat RMT. On the other hand, a market that has been designed specifically to have little meaning isn't exactly thrilling to get into either.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

The problem was that while Vanya was a BETTER choice than Darklight, Crafters made it unrealistically expensive and thus out of reach for the majority of players.

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Look at it from our point of view, maybe? When I was making Vanya Robes for profits, I paid 100k per philo mats. So at 900k cost for just those (then clusters, cocoons, rose gold, etc.), and the chance of landing a NQ if you "fail" the synth (I use fail here, but I mean "not get a HQ"), you lose more than 200,000 gil (Because you wouldn't be able to sell a NQ vanya around then for more than 600-700k).

We "charged" millions for Vanya because the people who ran dungeons sold the philo mats for so much. It has nothing to do with us trying to rip people off, it has everything to do with us selling things above cost.

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Originally Posted by Docent

Look at it from our point of view, maybe? When I was making Vanya Robes for profits, I paid 100k per philo mats. So at 900k cost for just those (then clusters, cocoons, rose gold, etc.), and the chance of landing a NQ if you "fail" the synth (I use fail here, but I mean "not get a HQ"), you lose more than 200,000 gil (Because you wouldn't be able to sell a NQ vanya around then for more than 600-700k).

We "charged" millions for Vanya because the people who ran dungeons sold the philo mats for so much. It has nothing to do with us trying to rip people off, it has everything to do with us selling things above cost.

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It didn't take many dungeon runs at all to get enough tomes to buy the Philo materials for Vanya stuff. The laziness of many Crafters led to an inflation in those material prices. You could easily have made hundreds of thousands of gil profit by getting your own Philo Tome materials.

Worse yet, you were BUYING the mats for that price! So of course people will keep putting them up expensive. Crafters could easily have simply stopped buying them and forced the prices lower, the resumed buying them when they reached a better price point.
But they didn't, and even the ones who farmed their own Materials still tried to sell them for up to a million gil a piece.
Farming your own mats but ending up with a NQ piece would allow you to STILL make a couple hundred thousand in profits since you paid nothing to make it.
And then the people who bought mats tried selling NQ stuff at HQ prices to make up for the mats they bought!

The biggest problem comes from the fact that many people refused to farm their own mats, it drove up the prices for even the ones that DID farm their own. Some people were making millions in profit with zero gil investment, because the guy who bought 900k worth of mats needed to make a profit.

Add to that a general sense of greed among Crafters, no Crafter would work to make a piece with no gil investment AND sell it at a low price point if half the Market Board is taken up by people who bought mats and overpriced to make their cash back, the farmer would simply take advantage of that and sell stupidly high, which is exactly what happened. And we see where that led don't we?

As for people saying to make craft mats drop from raids, if that happened, we'd end up with the Vanya at launch scenario all over again, as the Raiders who have no need of your craft gear and sell the mats to make equivalent gear at stupidly huge prices. Which naturally, the crafters would snap up and then saturate the market with overpriced stuff again.
Hell, by all means go for it. Set up that system. I'll just take the 3 Statics in my FC, have them sell the mats ridiculously high for a few weeks, then use the spare (free) mats to make our own i90s to sell and we can make millions upon millions for our bank with no effort required whatsoever. Should the other FCs start selling cheap, we'll just use our bank to buyout the entire Board and resale at inflated prices to manipulate the market back to inflated prices.
Now imagine some of the bigger FCs with 10+ statics doing the same thing.

Byebye economy.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Worse yet, you were BUYING the mats for that price! So of course people will keep putting them up expensive.

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Yes, that's how supply and demand works. The same goes for the crafters who put their items up at a high price. If there's high demand for a product, people will sell it at a high price. That goes for people selling tome materials, and people selling finished products. You can't just blame the crafter every step of the way, when it's not the crafter who determines what the prices are, but everyone involved.

Such a simple solution to this. . .

Make the actual best in slot (for a few slots, not all of them) be something unsellable that requires an unsellable dungeon/raid drop. Then you make the second-best a close contender but clearly inferior, so there's a desire but not a need to get the BiS.

Oh, look, you now have a BiS that requires DoW/DoM and DoH! And heck, you could even make one of the mats an unsellable DoL gather! The best part is, since none of it can be sold, there's no chance of RMT getting involved.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Such a simple solution to this. . .

Make the actual best in slot (for a few slots, not all of them) be something unsellable that requires an unsellable dungeon/raid drop. Then you make the second-best a close contender but clearly inferior, so there's a desire but not a need to get the BiS.

Oh, look, you now have a BiS that requires DoW/DoM and DoH! And heck, you could even make one of the mats an unsellable DoL gather! The best part is, since none of it can be sold, there's no chance of RMT getting involved.

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but then the person is forced to level a DOH and DOL to use it, which isn't helping them or the economy.

catch-22 much?

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Originally Posted by Sylve

The laziness of many Crafters led to an inflation in those material prices.

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One could say the prices are also a part of the "Laziness" of raiders, if they weren't lazy they could make their own Philo gear and never need to buy anything right!?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Such a simple solution to this. . .

Make the actual best in slot (for a few slots, not all of them) be something unsellable that requires an unsellable dungeon/raid drop. Then you make the second-best a close contender but clearly inferior, so there's a desire but not a need to get the BiS.

Oh, look, you now have a BiS that requires DoW/DoM and DoH! And heck, you could even make one of the mats an unsellable DoL gather! The best part is, since none of it can be sold, there's no chance of RMT getting involved.

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this might be the worst idea yet

I would like crafting gear to be put on par with items you can buy with tomes (I would actually like to see tome gear be the stepping stone for getting into top tier raids and not on par with what drops in said raid). I also wouldn't be opposed to some items that are BiS, can only be used by the person who crafted them, and require a drop out of a raid. And yeah, I know that wouldn't boost the economy if it was only used by the crafter, but it would make the profession useful.

SE isn't gonna do it though.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

but then the person is forced to level a DOH and DOL to use it, which isn't helping them or the economy.

catch-22 much?

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Oh? I thought the thread was complaining about crafting being useless. I'm suggesting a use for crafting. Plus, y'know, only one of the mats is coming from a dungeon. That still leaves a handful of other mats that can all come from other crafters.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Farming your own mats but ending up with a NQ piece would allow you to STILL make a couple hundred thousand in profits since you paid nothing to make it.

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I don't disagree with all you're saying, but this little bit is plain wrong.

Opportunity cost. If I'm sitting on 900k of Potashes, and turn it into a 600k robe, I don't make 600k, I lose 300k.

It's still a higher RoI (Return on Investment) than plain dropping the robe (which is 900k loss).

Every time a crafter attempts to make something, there is a chance we won't HQ (unless you have a 100% HQ recipe/crafting set, which is pretty hard to get). If an item is worth X, and has 90% to HQ, you have to factor in that 10% chance of ending up with a loss when you calculate in in your average profit margins, otherwise, you're better off just selling the mats.

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Every time a crafter attempts to make something, there is a chance we won't HQ (unless you have a 100% HQ recipe/crafting set, which is pretty hard to get). If an item is worth X, and has 90% to HQ, you have to factor in that 10% chance of ending up with a loss when you calculate in in your average profit margins, otherwise, you're better off just selling the mats.

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With some melded gear all 2 star items are 100% hq rate. There is no chance to nq if you have all the crafts leveled. I have never nqed a 2 star item because the chance doesn't even exist if you know what you are doing.

yep factor in 10% fail chance, factor in time spent, factor in lala brand name, factor in FC tax, factor in child support, factor in rarity, factor in rival fc...the list keeps going and the greed of a crafter has no end...

No, just no. You want the best gear in the game, work for it, not pay for it. Give crafter something that has nothing to do with end game for all I care, vanity gear, special dye, special whatever. It can be supportive stuff for end game, like temp enchantment.

Leave Coil 2 and any upcoming progression raid out of it.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

With some melded gear all 2 star items are 100% hq rate. There is no chance to nq if you have all the crafts leveled. I have never nqed a 2 star item because the chance doesn't even exist if you know what you are doing.

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I am lazy and cheap. I don't use any HQ mats, so when I make ilevel 70 2 star HQs, I use a generic Byregot's Blessing bomb with 8 Steady Hand II'd Hasty Touches (with Waste Not I used twice).

I technically need 6 hasty touches to land for a 100% HQ from NQ mats. (50%+30% = 80% chance per Hasty to work) If I manage to land Byregot's on a Good, I don't need 6, but that's somewhat up to good fortune.

Statistically, the odds of getting 6/8 at least when you have 80% per attempt are pretty good, but they're not 100%. Thankfully, if I'm unlucky, I simply Reclaim and hope the 90% refund procs, and then try again. Of the countless crafts I have made for my FC, I have only ever NQ'd or lost mats to Reclaim twice, so I'm fine using that approach.

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Originally Posted by Docent

I am lazy and cheap. I don't use any HQ mats, so when I make ilevel 70 2 star HQs, I use a generic Byregot's Blessing bomb with 8 Steady Hand II'd Hasty Touches (with Waste Not I used twice).

I technically need 6 hasty touches to land for a 100% HQ from NQ mats. (50%+30% = 80% chance per Hasty to work) If I manage to land Byregot's on a Good, I don't need 6, but that's somewhat up to good fortune.

Statistically, the odds of getting 6/8 at least when you have 80% per attempt are pretty good, but they're not 100%. Thankfully, if I'm unlucky, I simply Reclaim and hope the 90% refund procs, and then try again. Of the countless crafts I have made for my FC, I have only ever NQ'd or lost mats to Reclaim twice, so I'm fine using that approach.

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If you have the materia melds/skills to meet the numbers in this post.. it has the rotation for a 100% HQ rate on 2-star items with all NQ mats.

Edited cause.. I forgot the link.. http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1p8t6q/

crafter need endgame, but not link to the raiding

Hi there, I do think crafters should have more of an impact. Not able to produce the same ilvl as hardest content,
But 10 lvls below, and equal stats (to the other 10 lvl below gear gotten from content) when HQ, (not 20 levels below),
and maybe only able to craft 1-2 pieces per class that is equal to the best set when HQ, maybe from super rare
mats from content.

This still leaves crafters an important role, but lets content running provide the majority of top tier gear.

Crafters...end game? Gathers endgame ? No... Please no... Wake me up someone?

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Originally Posted by Volsung

Hi there, I do think crafters should have more of an impact. Not able to produce the same ilvl as hardest content,
But 10 lvls below, and equal stats when HQ, (not 20 levels below), and maybe only able to craft 1-2 pieces
per class that is equal to the best set when HQ, maybe from super rare mats from content.

This still leaves crafters an important role, but lets content running provide the majority of top tier gear.

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Absolutely not. 20 ilvls below is where it should be, it should never be any where near the highest gear in the game or be the only way to achieve that gear.

So it can't be on equal terms and it can't be the best way to leads into the best gear. Everything else is fair game IMHO.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

Absolutely not. 20 ilvls below is where it should be, it should never be any where near the highest gear in the game or be the only way to achieve that gear.

So it can't be on equal terms and it can't be the best way to leads into the best gear. Everything else is fair game IMHO.

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Who said it has to be the only way to achieve that gear? you can still have dungeons that drop -10 level gear also.
Its nothing but an alternative to sub best gear.

Which means: feel free to have all the RNG you want while running content; I'm not forcing you to buy anything.
I'm not taking that away. only adding on top of that.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

but then the person is forced to level a DOH and DOL to use it, which isn't helping them or the economy.

catch-22 much?

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Not if SE bring also a craft request feature, like the meld request feature. Then a crafter can craft it for you without that you need to give him the items.

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Originally Posted by Docent

I don't disagree with all you're saying, but this little bit is plain wrong.
Opportunity cost. If I'm sitting on 900k of Potashes, and turn it into a 600k robe, I don't make 600k, I lose 300k.

It's still a higher RoI (Return on Investment) than plain dropping the robe (which is 900k loss).

Every time a crafter attempts to make something, there is a chance we won't HQ (unless you have a 100% HQ recipe/crafting set, which is pretty hard to get). If an item is worth X, and has 90% to HQ, you have to factor in that 10% chance of ending up with a loss when you calculate in in your average profit margins, otherwise, you're better off just selling the mats.

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Well, i guess we just look at the HQ a little different. I view it as a bonus, something a lil extra. NQ Vanya melded is still as good as Darklight. If i farmed the Materials for it, then the NQ is the aim, the HQ is the bonus.
It would still be a profit of however much you sold it for, just not as large as had you gotten HQ, since you never invested money into the making. Only time.

I still maintain that crafters should simply not have bought the Philo materials for that much. By being the only ones demanding, you do have control over the price point. A vocal boycott of MB Philo Mats would have driven down the cost of materials and end product considerably. Which would allow you to sell on volume instead of making bank on a single item once in a while.

I'm glad to see you have a solid opinions though (mine are opinions too ;) ). Too many posts are junk, just mindless ranting about how it "should be better".
I don't think Crafting has a place in Endgame Raid Content. Because thats the reward for doing that Content in the first place. Vanity sets, that being gear with a unique appearance, is an excellent way to keep Crafting relevant for Combat Classes. Housing is mostly just for fun, but again keeps Crafters in business (but only if you make it affordable).

Materia Melding i think just needs to be changed completely. A lot of people want side stats that are not CRIT/DET/ACC. I'd like to see Materia moved from offering just stat boosts, to making small changes to the way skills work. Nothing so powerful as adding to the Damage Reduction from skills like Rampart, but something like:
"Increases the DoT duration of Touch of Death by X seconds, but reduces the Potency by X"

It'd give gameplay options without making it critical to success, and give Crafters and Melding in general a little more purpose.

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Originally Posted by Volsung

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As soon as you introduce a crafted set equal to the new tomes, the new tomes set becomes worthless. Why? Because Gill can get you the second best set in the game faster and easier. It is also customizable! Further increasing its value. So lala onichan running around in full second best set in the game melded to the teeth while he have never came across Twintania.

This is one side of the coin, the other side is RMT. Nub A buys 3-4m Gill so he can get that one piece created for him by lala onichan. #inb4 SE ban every single crafter for making millions upon millions form RMT bought Gill. Then you guys come running to the forums crying about how you were the first lala selling HQ ilvl100 and made millions. #Dedication #Hardwork #Wrongfully_banned #Gill_taken_away.

Be reasonable, instead of demanding end game gear, demand to be involved to a limited extent in making the best gear better. Why not ask for the ability to customize the new Allagan gear? Win win for everyone but NO! onichan will no longer make 40+ millions in profit, so it is a bad idea -_-.

I always felt that items you get from tomes should be inferior. I understand why its not that way in this game (design) choice, I just think that design choice is a stupid one, but a stupid one borne from a good reason.

If the game has two tomes (like it does) i feel the highest level crated gear should equal the lowest tome? Why? Because bloody hell it's the lowest damn tome. And it requires more effort (and this bit is important) from all parties involved than tome gear. Using 2.2 as an example, myth drops from every low end dungeon, these dungeons that have been designed to require as little communication as possible due to potential language barriers, so I can argue that spamming dungeons is brain dead easy. Crafting on the other hand requires mats to be farmed, bought with those tomes, put together, and RNG god'd to HQ, all of which will require at least the active participation of at least 1 or 2 people that have to work together, indirectly or otherwise. (And one could argue that crafters don't communicate, I would argue that their communication is pricing, supply and demand, ect.).

However, I'm aware how this game works and why it does so. Being an Eastern MMO, RMT is the devil and every and all decisions have to be made with it in mind. If crafted gear actually had a place, no doubt RMT would be all over it.

Damn shame really. As a player who's ambition is to find an mmo that will actually let me run a store (like legit run a store. As in I log in, stand behind a desk, and provide a service to customers), I am well aware that I could never do such a thing here, but I understand why people want to feel like they actually matter.

Also I want to point out, when someone says that you are a "stepping stone", that is simply them being nice. Everybody with even half a brain knows that "stepping stone" is a nice way of saying "We'll give ya something to do but don't expect much use out of it." To be perfectly honest, they shouldn't even have crafting classes if they were by design supposed to be "stepping stones" because eventually stepping stones becomes useless.

Not sure if this has been said, but if they added high level crafting mats that could only be obtained in the higher level content like t6 through whatever...what is wrong about that? Running high level content for mats to make the higher level gear?

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Originally Posted by AAAFate

Not sure if this has been said, but if they added high level crafting mats that could only be obtained in the higher level content like t6 through whatever...what is wrong about that? Running high level content for mats to make the higher level gear?

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Yeah, make the materials drop from Binding Coil and the crafted gear untradable.
The RMT + lots of gils = leet gears would be non-existent.

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Originally Posted by AAAFate

Not sure if this has been said, but if they added high level crafting mats that could only be obtained in the higher level content like t6 through whatever...what is wrong about that? Running high level content for mats to make the higher level gear?

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That's not the problem. It's when this "higher level gear" gets put up for sale on the Market Board. You now have RMT (gil buyers) wearing some of the best gear in the game with zero effort? If this crafted gear couldn't sold on the MB or traded then there wouldn't be a problem. The crafter would have to put in time and effort to craft these pieces and only he could wear the finished product. Just like someone running dungeons and getting the drop. If "Gil can buy you the best gear" I'd probably quit shortly after.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

If "Gil can buy you the best gear" I'd probably quit shortly after.

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The short end of the story. There would be nothing to be said at that point but "I quit".

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Originally Posted by AAAFate

Not sure if this has been said, but if they added high level crafting mats that could only be obtained in the higher level content like t6 through whatever...what is wrong about that? Running high level content for mats to make the higher level gear?

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brb, need to Coil Turn 6 and 8 for the chance to maybe get a piece of my Shield. That way, next week i might be able to get another piece! In about maybe 6 months, I'll finally be able to be able maybe find someone to make my shield! ... Yeah, sounds like a blast.

Or, you know, the boss could just drop the Shield in the first place, yeah?

People need to stop using "but... RMT" as an excuse not to bring anything new to the game's economy. The RMT in this game isn't even that bad.

Coil gear should still be the best, but crafted gear could be i100 but difficult to HQ and use rare materials and recipes. None of this 100% HQ stuff we have with the current 2-star recipes.

The materia system also needs a complete overhaul, it's pretty terrible. However, Yoshi-P mentioned there's stuff in development for that.

To the OP (from his own signature):

Quit being a nuisance. In Final Fantasy XIV: ARR crafting is not a part of end game. Deal with it. You can't decide what Square Enix chose is stupid and correct people based on your preference. If they wanted the crafting not to be end game you would have to deal with me telling you it isn't.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

No Ty, I don't wish to see the game controlled by RMT or be under the mercy of greedy lala crafter. I rather be under the mercy of rng than the greed of a crafter.

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Yes because denying Crafters a role at end game due to "greedy lala crafter" makes perfect sense when EVERYONE is able to craft items... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Cigaran

Yes because denying Crafters a role at end game due to "greedy lala crafter" makes perfect sense when EVERYONE is able to craft items... :rolleyes:

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But what about the people that don't want to craft?

The counter argument will be.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

But what about the people that don't want to craft?

The counter argument will be.

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Make friends instead of trying to be a solo only, anti-social gamer? At one point, games of this type were built around interaction of the community. That concept never should have been abandoned and the direct result of that decision is this sort of mentality.

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Originally Posted by Cigaran

Yes because denying Crafters a role at end game due to "greedy lala crafter" makes perfect sense when EVERYONE is able to craft items... :rolleyes:

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Not everyone got all crafting to 50. Without that you can't HQ reliably, ergo not everyone can craft the gear but onichan lala who never set foot in T5. I will be playing a different game before I'm forced to level every single crafting job to 50 or have to pay for my gear.

It is not happening and I will be here fighting this bs day and night.

You want the best gear work for it, not pay for it.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

I will be playing a different game before I'm forced to level every single crafting job to 50 or have to pay for my gear.

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Who said you had to level a craft to 50 or buy them?

Friends are a amazing thing, it's a shame MMO communities these days seem to shun interaction though.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Who said you had to level a craft to 50 or buy them?

Friends are a amazing thing, it's a shame MMO communities these days seem to shun interaction though.

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Not really because this create a huge gameplay issue. If crafting is ilvl100 then the new tomes set is meaningless, if it is ilvl110 then all of coil is meaningless.

I have seen first hand what weak drops do to coil. I had to replace players in my static because Twintania dropped ilvl90 and people were not interested in even trying her. They were good players but because the carrot was not shinny they saw no reason to put any effort with her.

This is exactly what you guys asking for, killing the portion I enjoy the most about this game, progression and a shiny carrot at the end of it.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

This is exactly what you guys asking for.

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I'm sorry I don't think I recall telling you what I think would be a great way to implement endgame crafters into the game. Don't think that just because I feel crafting has a place in the endgame means I want Ilvl 115 weapons from crafts, my personal opinion is it should be more about the options available to players to customize their charcters.

Now sadly to make it work would probably require a overhaul in how gear is givin to us in general. Right now there is a singular progression with no reason to do wear anything else, there are alot of ways you could make crafters into a part of the game. But unfortunatly those afraid of community interaction would never agree as it would include having systems where you could request to have your rare drops created into customized endgame gear, instead of getting a allagan body you could find allagan plate steel to have a crafter turn into one of multiple armour sets giving the "Token system" feel but allowing crafters to play a roll in it.

The game needs community interaction, but the design so far is counter to allowing a community to grow on any server. From Duty finder, to the uselessness of crafting/gathering we may as well not have servers or crafts and just log into a lobby system.

I'm not opposed to such idea. I even suggested in another thread I created that crafting should be able to customize Allagan 2 drops to make it better and personal. Im opposed to having onichan lala craft any valuable set of gear such as i110 or i100. However, customizing i100 purchased using tomes and i110 Allagan to be better and personal stats wise would be something I strongly support.

I agree that BIS shouldn't be crafted, but I also feel it shouldn't be relegated to near uselessness.