This game is like Final Fantasy XI pre Chains of Promathia

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Originally Posted by KupoNuts

Quoted for truth. Expecting someone to reply with "time sink" argument. Well guess what, welcome to an MMO. Are you sure you're playing the right genre?

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The irony behind this statement is that MMO's didn't get popular at all or become a genre till they became more accessible and less on the time sinks.

Let me ask, why should I take years to obtain a relic weapon? Hardcore to take forever to just get one thing? It isn't rewarding, it is just "For crying out loud, finally I don't have to do this crap anymore."

I won't defend FFXIV, but making gated content and time sinks like FFXI is an even worse solution. It is basically asking to lose your subscribers and become a niche game. But hey, at least the mass minority of players will be happy, right?

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Originally Posted by Nero

Eh? you know that the vast Majority has not cleared T5, or did not even touch Coil yet at all? Same goes for Extreme Primals. Last official Number of even taking part in Coil was below 10%, so how is that exactly "a great chunk" and "cleared most, if not all"?

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That's just because any casual player can get full 90 gear without stepping a foot inside coil/extreme fights, not worth the effort aside from the glory.

Coil > the rest. Equip from myth could be il 80 and not 90. Even that, coil limit is ridiculous: you can't stop me to farm my end game gear just because there's no enough content around.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

That's just because any casual player can get full 90 gear without stepping a foot inside coil/extreme fights, not worth the effort aside from the glory.

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That has nothing to do with people not having done coil or extreme yet. <_< A lot people simply did not made it that far "yet".

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Originally Posted by Nero

That has nothing to do with people not having done coil or extreme yet. <_< A lot people simply did not made it that far "yet".

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You need to receive a better reward to convince you to move your ass for coil and extreme instead of afk in Mor Dhona with your full myth 90. That's the point.
If extreme and coil's rewards were all 95-100 il, then it could be fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

You need to receive a better reward to convince you to move your ass for coil and extreme instead of afk in Mor Dhona with your full myth 90. That's the point.
If extreme and coil's rewards were all 95-100 il, then it could be fair enough.

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Is there a reward going on for "Missing the Point of 2014"? The majority of the players did not do coil or extremes, because they either don't have a 50, are not that far into the Game yet, or simply can't beat it. There is a difference in getting full myth and not having access/failing at said Content. Let aside here that Coil Weapons are 95, that is simply not the point of the quote i did respond to.

Did you play XI? In XI there was always something new to do or get, an item from a NM or quest long forgotten to do just for fun or a trillion other things. In XI always something to do, in XIV nothing to do but coil at mondays >_<. I still love XIV thou, I'm just so bored atm ; ;

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Originally Posted by Maku

Stuff about vertical progression.

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That is one thing FFXI was the best at, horizontal progression. "Hey, I just got this item in Jar from a content expansion in 2007! Well crap, now I'm not haste capped, better go back to 2002 content and get my Bhaidate" or, "I should go get my WHM relic to recap my stoneskin since I just got another piece which ups the casting time, but would leave me uncapped otherwise!"

PS: I know I most likely screwed the years up, I'm not looking them up, the point is there either way without exact dates.

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

That is one thing FFXI was the best at, horizontal progression. "Hey, I just got this item in Jar from a content expansion in 2007! Well crap, now I'm not haste capped, better go back to 2002 content and get my Bhaidate" or, "I should go get my WHM relic to recap my stoneskin since I just got another piece which ups the casting time, but would leave me uncapped otherwise!"

PS: I know I most likely screwed the years up, I'm not looking them up, the point is there either way without exact dates.

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That is exactly right, a good point indeed. In FFXI, a content did not get "old", when i quit in 2010, SkY was still viable(a content released in 2002).

The rarity of item made the content last long. Im a liberal in RL, but damn i would hate it in a game.

Everybody gets a trophy!! whether you suck or not!

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Originally Posted by Synapse

I should say after that 1 yr mark from release of FFXI, it grew EXPONENTIALLY. Which i think will NEVER happen to FFXIV.

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I think you underestimate what the PS4 release will do, but it won't be anything astronomical like WoW or anything. Already I can tell the Steam sale bolstered the game a bit. (who knows what kind of long terms results it'll have though)

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Originally Posted by Amberion

You make it sound like no new children has been born after you did. ;p

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I think I could say with a degree of certainty that jr high and high school kids these days would spend one hour in FFXI and then quit. This is the me me me I want I want I want entitled instant-gratification generation we're talking about after all.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

That is exactly right, a good point indeed. In FFXI, a content did not get "old", when i quit in 2010, SkY was still viable(a content released in 2002).

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I love how people were willing to do Sky for 7 years, but god forbid we put another level of difficulty of Primals in this game. (I actually don't want to see this, but hopefully you get my point)

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Originally Posted by Nero

The majority of the players did not do coil or extremes, because they either don't have a 50, are not that far into the Game yet, or simply can't beat it.

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Or simply because you don't need them to get the best gear in the game, again.
I bet there would be more active linkshells trying to beat coil if 90 gear wouldn't be buyable by boring points.

I used to be an hardcore gamer in every MMO i have ever played (FFXI, WoW vanilla, lolgw2, ecc.) I simply don't feel the need to be an hardcore player here in FFXIV.

You can have the best gear in the game like every hardcore player that raids coil (aside from the weapon..that gives +2 dmg compared to a lolrelic farmed in 8 hours), so I wouldn't feel really well rewarded for putting so much effort wiping in coil and beating content, that's why I don't take it that serious even if I got the spirit of a raider.

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The majority of the players did not do coil or extremes, because they either don't have a 50, are not that far into the Game yet, or simply can't beat it.

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Majority of players don't have a 50? I don't think so, it's 2 full days playtime to make a 50, even fate parties around are just 10% than first 2 months: also, there's lot of 1.0 players with already all 50s jobs. If they had no plans for end game at first year of ARR, they could just remove 1.0 characters then, because a legacy player has nothing to do right now. Or, at least, they could make coil free with no limit and il. 95-100. They already scammed legacy players with luminaries, since they're useless and you can get AF just finishing last craft quest. I just stopped to use my legacy character months ago and playing with a new one since there was nothing to do.

To make a lv. 75 job on FFXI even after 2 years from japanese release it took 7-8 months, at least. It had a sense. Instead, FFXIV pushing players to 50 quickly with no end game. Everything is casual, teleports, craft, myth points, CT...

Chains was magical experience. No that's really all I had to add to this convo.

I hope the story of XIV can make the characters seem more important and human that way in the future. Now there's a bit too much lore exposition posing for my taste and not enough of that melancholic ff personality.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

Majority of players don't have a 50? I don't think so,

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That's the thing.. you don't think so.

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/b...20130922_5.jpg

Its a couple month old, but the percentages hardly change when a game gets older. They usually stay stable and while you have more people with 50's, you also have way more new people.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

it's 2 full days playtime to make a 50, even fate parties around are just 10% than first 2 months: also, there's lot of 1.0 players with already all 50s jobs.

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It's 2 days for someone going straight after it, it took me 2 weeks for arcanist simply because i just leveld by quests and i was not in a hurry to get it to 50. Just that you can level to 50 in 2 days, does not mean people actually do that.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

If they had no plans for end game at first year of ARR, they could just remove 1.0 characters then, because a legacy player has nothing to do right now.

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Dude i log in daily for 3-4 hours at least, i had all jobs at 50 in 1.0, all luminaries and so on.. dont tell me Legacy Players have nothing to do. That is everyonse choice, if you play the Game or get narrow-minded about a certain piece of the Content and ignore the rest.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

To make a lv. 75 job on FFXI even after 2 years from japanese release it took 7-8 months, at least. It had a sense. Instead, FFXIV pushing players to 50 quickly with no end game. Everything is casual, teleports, craft, myth points, CT...

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I got my first 75 within 4 weeks. Same Statement you did before.. while it took you 7-8 month, does not mean it was not possible to be faster. And like i've said... just because you "can" be faster, does not mean everyone will/want to go faster.

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Originally Posted by Nero

I got my first 75 within 4 weeks..

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Just throwing this out there, but 4 weeks is post AU at best. CoP and RoZ, I highly doubt it. Post AU when 10k+ birds were a thing 55+, and meripos could net you 30k/hour, sure. Pre AU when a KP Bones party was considered amazing? No way. Not unless you played for over 12 hours per day and never had to wait on an invite, ever. Which even tanks/healers had to wait often in that game with the LFP system. Heck, back then killing an EP mob only gave 15exp, and that was also *before* they nerfed the total exp it took to level.

Then you're going to want to take on the time it takes to do all 5 LBs, which was lengthy unless you had other 75's at your beck and call. But a legit, back when everyone was levelling and you'd 12 man LBs? Nah.

EDIT: Oh, and unless you were gimp you had to level your sub to 37. And chances are, you had to level it's sub to 18. And that's still assuming you didn't want to level anything but WHM/MNK/WAR/BLM/RDM/THF. (I almost didn't list THF as /NIN was nigh-mandatory for them since forever)

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Originally Posted by Nero

shameful wall of lies

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lol you reported a graph dated 24th september, you got it from here http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/blog/000506.html
trying to make a point posting something 6 months old? guess ARR when came out?

I got a full 50, yes I got nothing to do besides the monday day, don't tell us the dailies are filling the game please, it take 30 minutes to complete them all, are you serious or trolling? really if you need 3-4 hours to complete them you should review your gameplay

You clearly never played old style ffxi, it was clearly impossible to get a 75 within 4 weeks with all the chocobo quests, sub job to level, airship pass, genkai, af quests, money for gear, and so on. If you leveled post abyssea that doesn't count and you don't know what you are talking about, you don't even know what ffxi was

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Originally Posted by Azrael

You clearly never played old style ffxi, it was clearly impossible to get a 75 within 4 weeks with all the chocobo quests, sub job to level, airship pass, genkai, af quests, money for gear, and so on. If you leveled post abyssea that doesn't count and you don't know what you are talking about, you don't even know what ffxi was

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Thing is, I could see someone skipping rank missions (So no airship), maybe even skipping the gyashl green quest (No chocobo), and we could even argue he had a friend funnel him funds for gear, and AF in that game was hit or miss, so I could see him skipping that until 75. But sheer levelling of your main and subs and LBs man... 4 weeks, no way, not pre-AU. Post AU it's still quick, I guess, and post-WotG I'd say that's about right.

Abyssea I won't mention. 8 hours was all that was needed then. lol

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Originally Posted by Nero

That's the thing.. you don't think so.

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/b...20130922_5.jpg

Its a couple month old, but the percentages hardly change when a game gets older. They usually stay stable and while you have more people with 50's, you also have way more new people.

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What, this is a super old graphic posted at the release... the new players are actually just gil seller.

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It's 2 days for someone going straight after it, it took me 2 weeks for arcanist simply because i just leveld by quests and i was not in a hurry to get it to 50. Just that you can level to 50 in 2 days, does not mean people actually do that.

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Two weeks or two days doesn't matter, game is out since months ago it's not anymore a new game now.


(2nd post coming...)

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Dude i log in daily for 3-4 hours at least, i had all jobs at 50 in 1.0, all luminaries and so on.. dont tell me Legacy Players have nothing to do. That is everyonse choice, if you play the Game or get narrow-minded about a certain piece of the Content and ignore the rest.

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3-4 hours daily is a really poor playtime for a MMORPG, hardcore player usually play (play, not chat) over 7-8 hours per day.
Even that, 3-4 hours per day is too much for this content. Coil cap / CT and primals clears take max 2 days per week, it means you have to log just for 20 minutes per day for the rest of week if you're going to do dailies (useless after the mount, but still...).

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I got my first 75 within 4 weeks. Same Statement you did before.. while it took you 7-8 month, does not mean it was not possible to be faster. And like i've said... just because you "can" be faster, does not mean everyone will/want to go faster.

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Impossible. : p
I am talking about the first FFXI american version released in 2004. Kazham keys, sub job, parties, rank and missions for airship, genkai, quests (only the chocobo quest take a full day), unlocking teleports.
In 4 weeks you could just reach Jeuno and equip your character enough to approach Kazham without getting booted. If you survive to goblins in there outside, of course. Then you need another week to understand Kazham map (oh well, there's people still don't know it till 11 years release). FFXI is a shiny masterpiece nothing compared to these MMORPG out there nowdays.

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

Thing is, I could see someone skipping rank missions (So no airship), maybe even skipping the gyashl green quest (No chocobo), and we could even argue he had a friend funnel him funds for gear, and AF in that game was hit or miss, so I could see him skipping that until 75. But sheer levelling of your main and subs and LBs man... 4 weeks, no way, not pre-AU. Post AU it's still quick, I guess, and post-WotG I'd say that's about right.

Abyssea I won't mention. 8 hours was all that was needed then. lol

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Oh well, that looks like a gilseller scenario, not realistic for an average player, but still possible lol.
If everything went perfect like you said, even assuming you get an invite in party as soon as you login and your party never failed, I will never forget exp in ro'maeve/bibiki bay parties, no way you could make your way to the cap in those groups in 4 weeks.

BB parties were amazing... Especially when you 6k slug shot when dhalmel are in berserk... Ahahah
~tutturututturutututu *bard song

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

Impossible. : p
I am talking about the first FFXI american version released in 2004. Kazham keys, sub job, parties, rank and missions for airship, genkai, quests (only the chocobo quest take a full day), unlocking teleports.
In 4 weeks you could just reach Jeuno and equip your character enough to approach Kazham without getting booted. If you survive to goblins in there outside, of course. Then you need another week to understand Kazham map (oh well, there's people still don't know it till 11 years release). FFXI is a shiny masterpiece nothing compared to these MMORPG out there nowdays.

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Wrong. It took a week, tops, to get to Kazham if you played a lot at release. Everything else you named (subjobs, rank missions for airship, unlocking teleports) did not take as much time as you're saying. Even at the release of the game, the information was out there (even the crappy prima strategy guides and gamefaqs provided enough information).

If you spaced it out and did all the randomness that was in the game.. of course it would take you four weeks or longer to get there. However, to say someone couldn't get past Kazham in 4 weeks is really, really wrong.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Wrong. It took a week, tops, to get to Kazham if you played a lot at release. Everything else you named (subjobs, rank missions for airship, unlocking teleports) did not take as much time as you're saying. Even at the release of the game, the information was out there (even the crappy prima strategy guides and gamefaqs provided enough information).

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What? Lol, man, I played hardcore as never before and never done on FFXI 2004 release (first, in USA, I needed to put fake NA information to play it since I am EU): starting saying Kazham is not part of FFXI release in 2002 (JP) and saying it's impossible to get your 75 in 4 weeks when Zilart was out. Old players know it, you could be stuck on genkai even for more than a month.
So please, stop talking things you never done.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

What? Lol, man, I played hardcore as never before and never done on FFXI 2004 release (first, in USA, I needed to put fake NA information to play it since I am EU): starting saying Kazham is not part of FFXI release in 2002 (JP) and saying it's impossible to get your 75 in 4 weeks when Zilart was out. Old players know it, you could be stuck on genkai even for more than a month.
So please, stop talking things you never done.

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Granted, I stopped playing before they raised the cap past 75, but I played for a good 5 years on and off. And I restarted over and over again (due to eventual inactivity forced me to buy the game again if there was no 'welcome back' campaign going on) getting WHM and PLD to 75 multiple times. So yes, I did get to Kazham multiple times in a week or less. Stop assuming people haven't done things simply because you haven't or couldn't. This was also long before level lync and other ways to artifically increase the speed that you level.

I also never stated getting to 75 in four weeks was possible or not before they made the game stupid; I never tried nor would I want to. I simply stated your 'facts' about kazham was inaccurate.

The limiting factor in FFXI that made your first job take a long time to get to 75 was farming enough gil to buy gear. 4 weeks is way too little time to reach 75, but also way too much to get to Kazham, lol.

But yeah, took me almost a year to get my first 75 in FFXI because I cared about my gear.

And this is just the leveling, if we start to talk about relics and end game gear then we are really going far. No one had relics for years, the first names were legendary till now on their own servers. Here the relic weapon is the weaker lv.90 weapon that you can obtain with hours and people can also buy them if they're too weak to do even Titan HM.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Wrong. It took a week, tops, to get to Kazham if you played a lot at release. Everything else you named (subjobs, rank missions for airship, unlocking teleports) did not take as much time as you're saying. Even at the release of the game, the information was out there (even the crappy prima strategy guides and gamefaqs provided enough information).

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Congratulations, i'm happy to see there were so many experienced people in ffxi at release, a game that was far from being user friendly, where you could die alot and loose exp, go back to home point, farm keys to get to kazham, farm items for sub job quests without high level players helping you, make the quest for chocobo (only that take half a day), and find parties istant.
I'm also happy to know that you ran smoothly through valkurm noobs parties, without having problems ever. All that in a week? Really, i feel happy for you.

(for other people, ofc we are talking the first time you did it, not the multiple times, when you already knew everything about the game :) )

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Granted, I stopped playing before they raised the cap past 75, but I played for a good 5 years on and off. And I restarted over and over again (due to eventual inactivity forced me to buy the game again if there was no 'welcome back' campaign going on) getting WHM and PLD to 75 multiple times. So yes, I did get to Kazham multiple times in a week or less. Stop assuming people haven't done things simply because you haven't or couldn't. This was also long before level lync and other ways to artifically increase the speed that you level.

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I am talking about the absurd thing of 4 weeks cap, not Kazham, it was just an example. 4 weeks cap was impossible on FFXI after 1st expansion pack.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

And this is just the leveling, if we start to talk about relics and end game gear then we are really going far. No one had relics for years, the first names were legendary till now on their own servers. Here the relic weapon is the weaker lv.90 weapon that you can obtain with hours and people can also buy them if they're too weak to do even Titan HM.

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Again, not sure if this was a good thing in FFXI.

People talk about the lockouts in FFXIV, but completely forget about the horrible lockouts in FFXI (kings anyone?) that made things take much longer to get. Relics taking a lot less time to get in FFXIV isn't a problem (it's just a name after all).

The game could use some long term goals to achieve, but getting stuff doesn't need to be as ridiculous as it was in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

Congratulations, i'm happy to see there were so many experienced people in ffxi at release, a game that was far from being user friendly, where you could die alot and loose exp, go back to home point, farm keys to get to kazham, farm items for sub job quests without high level players helping you, make the quest for chocobo (only that take half a day), and find parties istant.
I'm also happy to know that you ran smoothly through valkurm noobs parties, without having problems ever. All that in a week? Really, i feel happy for you.
Find the sarcasm.

(for other people, ofc we are talking the first time you did it, not the multiple times, when you already knew everything about the game :) )

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What can I say? I'm sorry you had so many issues while playing? Perhaps it was because I was staticing with 2-3 friends when we started, but I never had any of those issues.

Again, just because you had consistently bad parties and bad situations doesn't mean everyone else did. Especially for those of us staticing with competent people (and using the internet). There was also the strategy guide from Prima.. that while it had a lot of inaccuracies, had a lot of valuable class and content information. We didn't beat our heads trying to figure out what to do next, we already knew in most cases. Plus, y'know, gamefaqs was constantly updated daily by people who WERE playing literal 15+ hour days in the game and did all the experimenting for us.

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

I am talking about the absurd thing of 4 weeks cap, not Kazham, it was just an example. 4 weeks cap was impossible on FFXI after 1st expansion pack.

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And that's fine and I'm not arguing that getting to 75 in four weeks would be a really.. well, difficult accomplishment. But if you'll read my original post, it had nothing to do with getting to 75 in four weeks. It was all about the Kazham thing.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

Congratulations, i'm happy to see there were so many experienced people in ffxi at release, a game that was far from being user friendly, where you could die alot and loose exp, go back to home point, farm keys to get to kazham, farm items for sub job quests without high level players helping you, make the quest for chocobo (only that take half a day), and find parties istant.
I'm also happy to know that you ran smoothly through valkurm noobs parties, without having problems ever. All that in a week? Really, i feel happy for you.

(for other people, ofc we are talking the first time you did it, not the multiple times, when you already knew everything about the game :) )

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I can understand people having problems with that but to me all those struggles were fun. Everything without higher lvl help was a challenging adventure XD

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

What can I say? I'm sorry you had so many issues while playing? Perhaps it was because I was staticing with 2-3 friends when we started, but I never had any of those issues.

Again, just because you had consistently bad parties and bad situations doesn't mean everyone else did. Especially for those of us staticing with competent people (and using the internet).

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Again I'm talking about the average players, you just answered to yourself saying you had a static group, and finding a good group was the core thing of ffxi, so you can't say everyone could easily make it like you did, and using a guide (we all knew about them, nothing new), wouldn't help more than just telling you what to do and where to go. i'm also happy to know your friends were sincronized with you and available all day.

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Originally Posted by Mattia

I can understand people having problems with that but to me all those struggles were fun. Everything without higher lvl help was a challenging adventure XD

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Me too, i actually enjoyed it if I think now, I liked the challenge lol, that's why I'm saying that ffxiv is far from being like ffxi >_> there's a huge difference really

Valkurum dunes (lv. 10-19) at the start of the game took longer than a week or at least few days if you were lucky. Find a good party was impossible. People were all new and Bogy aggro was a nightmare for most of them. You needed hours to find a party (especially without subjob). This discussion is not going far since there's no people who played the game at the Zilart release, not later. There was nothing to suggest you to go in Valkurum to exp, for example: your character was just into a super big world and you really didn't know what to do, since there was zero quest helper, zero suggestions, zero guides. Aside from the japanese ones, of course.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

Again I'm talking about the average players, you just answered to yourself saying you had a static group, and finding a good group was the core thing of ffxi, so you can't say everyone could easily make it like you did, and using a guide (we all knew about them, nothing new), wouldn't help more than just telling you what to do and where to go. i'm also happy to know your friends were sincronized with you and available all day.

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I didn't say everyone had the experience I did. My original post was saying that it shouldn't take the average player (granted, this is my opinion) more than a week to get to kazham if they play a lot. It was mainly saying that his 'four week minimum' line seem.. well, crazy? No idea why you went so passive aggressive in your post instead of just saying you disagreed with me. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

Valkurum dunes (lv. 10-19) at the start of the game took longer than a week or at least few days if you were lucky. Find a good party was impossible. People were all new and Bogy aggro was a nightmare for most of them. You needed hours to find a party (especially without subjob). This discussion is not going far since there's no people who played the game at the Zilart release, not later. There was nothing to suggest you to go in Valkurum to exp, for example: your character was just into a super big world and you really didn't know what to do, since there was zero quest helper, zero suggestions, zero guides. Aside from the japanese ones, of course.

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http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/181087218814?lpid=82 This guide (I'm pretty sure it was this guide) came out right after the game was released. It had information on all those things you're saying there was zero of. And if there was a guide like this available, you can be certain it was all over the internet at the time. As for finding a party, I'll agree it took a long time if you didn't static as a DD. If you were a whitemage or a tank, however, you got instant parties all day every day.

Regardless, we're going off topic now. I'll only continue posting if it's related to the original post.

The truth because FFXIV is far away from FFXI and can't be compared to that is on the team, mainly. Hiromichi Tanaka and team 2-4 of Squaresoft was the soul of game. Even 1.0 was ways near to XI than 2.0. Since Yoshi-P had the game in his hands all the magic is gone and a similar-new generation MMORPG for bored and lazy people is born.
The big names are gone, even Akihiko Yoshida, Matsuno and many others left Square-Enix after Bravely Default and the main projects of this saga are under the supervision of Toriyama and Nomura even after the disaster of XIII & co.
The only hope for FF is Ito and I hardly hope he will be the director of FF16.

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Originally Posted by Mattia

challenging adventure XD

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That FFXIV doesn't have. : D
Challenging adventure for J-RPG and even MMORPG lovers.

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Originally Posted by Azrael

make the quest for chocobo (only that take half a day)

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The quest took alf a day, or was it 6 hours? Can't remember, so many years ago. Anyway, it didn't mean you had to camp the dude while doing it. You could run of to fight crabs. ;p

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Originally Posted by Fumijj_Gah

Valkurum dunes (lv. 10-19) at the start of the game took longer than a week or at least few days if you were lucky.

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That's complete BS. You could easily get past VD in two days. 1 party for 10-15 and a second party for 15-20. The biggest limitation that prevented you from advancing rapidly was getting a party, which again, isn't exactly a good point for FFXI.