New dungeons confirmed i55?

Raise ilvl please. I don't wanna join a DF instance only to be stuck with people who cannot even kill the first boss due to poor gear lol.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

What point is there to these dungeons other than tome grinding if you can fully gear up in coil1-5/through myth both of which will be unlimited in 2.2? Sure they haven't told us what ilevel gear drops from here, but I'd have a hard time believing that it's above 90. Did they even think this through?

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Do you suggest that people should ignore every gear between ilevel 55-80 and go direct into coil 1-4 (coil 5 don't get the echo buff) with AF1?
What is if people don't want gear for the ilevel, but for vanity? What is if the gear in the new dungeons have only ilevel 75, but look amazing?
The Vanity system is coming with 2.2, the new dungeons are a good place to put in new vanity gears for people to farm for the vanity system.

Why are people talking about skill? Why are people talking about people with twin weapons being the worst players they ever seen? Why are people talking about ilvl 48s being the most pro and skilled players they ever seen? This is simply about appropriate ilvl. My friend told me that they said this new dungeon will be harder than pharos Sirius.

So lets look at a few things. Ilvl 55 , rather than the most professional player known to man as white knights will have us believe, is actually a new player wearing a piece or 2 of darklight, which he could probably afford after completing the main story quest. Now. Said player, logically, wants to get the best gear he can? So he queues for new dungeon since hes ilvl 55. Everything he has done in the game up to that point has been absolute faceroll ( titan hm I think we can agree is the 1st challenge this game offers ), and now hes queueing for the toughest instance in the game.

Compared to: Someone who went through progression and learned a bit. They got their relic, 3-4 pieces from ct and some myth gears. They even got garuda ring and ultima neck. THIS should be the kind of person to queue for the new dungeon.

Sure, generalise all freaking day about overgeared noobs, and undergeared pros, but its actually completely external to this. Players should PROGRESS, not hit 50 and BOOM, already gearing the top stuff with no clue about dps checks, rotations, little to no experience at endgame.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

In my book this is a fact, I have never ever came across a player who killed twin and was bad, let alone a healer.

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LOLOL

Just because you have a particular piece of gear doesn't mean you know your class.

I've seen TONS of people with EX weapons who were just terribad. I've played with people with Allagan weapons who had no idea what they were doing; they won the weapon and their other Allagan in greed-rolls and never really played the class before.


I keep seeing people with Allagan weapons here and there and set higher standards for them...so far, I've been more disappointed than satisfied.

As for the i55 of these dungeons...

Personally, I don't care. I also don't see why any of you "pro" players complaining about this care either. If you want to get content done with as few problems as possible...you queue with friends/FC mates/LS members you know.

Anytime you queue with randoms you have to accept that you may get bad people...regardless of ilv requirements.

I don't know how many times I've joined EX groups with i85 reqs that are just train-wrecks; people dying first phase, not doing enough DPS for the ilv, just having no clue.

item level =/= skill level

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Originally Posted by Gucci_Charms

Raise ilvl please. I don't wanna join a DF instance only to be stuck with people who cannot even kill the first boss due to poor gear lol.

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if they make the ilvl 55 that means i55 players can do it, course that doesn't include skill into it. don't blame the requirement blame the player.

I really don't understand the unrelenting defense people put up for low ilvl requirements on content that at least should be difficult. The rewards (that matter at least) will be tomes for ilvl 100-110 or so gear and the requirement to go is an item level 45-55 points lower than the rewards. It's not so much that I don't think ilvl 55 players can do these dungeons (maybe they can, maybe not -- I have no idea obviously), but from a progression standpoint it doesn't make sense to tell players to skip almost all of the endgame gear and start farming the highest level items almost immediately.

If you hit 50 and complete every expected piece of endgame content a single time (not talking about Coil or extremes here obviously) you'd be at ilvl 60+ if you got more than a single dungeon drop, even if you inexplicably decided not to make your relic weapon. It's a very low requirement. If I were ilvl 55 on my first class I certainly wouldn't want to go into the hardest dungeons in the game yet, if for no other reason than I obviously haven't done the ones that lead up to them yet.

Heck, I've seen people with the new Extreme Primal weapons who were complete idiots at their roles. Not the other night it was in Pharos that I ran with a Bard, full Tower armor and Extreme bow complaining about my damage output while drawing hate at least once every fight, killing all of the hatching eggs at Zu and failing to silence Siren's Lunatic Voice. I was running as Dragoon but unlike the bard I never drew hate because I know how to manage it, I'd stop attacking Zu to take care of any chicks that did hatch and it seems you can't stun Lunatic's Voice as Spineshatter Dive did nothing to stop it.

I'm not saying every undergeared player is a pro and every overgeared player is a newbie. But there's enough of both that iLevel means nothing and we were better off before it was added, when you could tell how good or bad a person was in the first five minutes just by observing how they performed because that was the only way. ILevel is too much like rose-colored glasses.

Yh your all right guys, ilvl means nothing. So many ilvl 67 titanEX runs u are all holding in PF, no doubt.

For all geniuses saying how ilvl 90s suck and ilvl 48s are the best players known to man, you do realise someone can go to ilvl 90 doing nothing but praetorium? You do realise primal weapons can and are bought? good, nice to see we cleared that up. Produce better arguments please.

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Originally Posted by Nutz

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it actually makes plenty of sense there is a cap (prolly a low cap like myth had 200) now should they have to wait till they do the philo grind for dl then do the myth/coil grind for i90 just to start on the new gear? they can only get so many of the new tomes a week so they will be forced (if they wanna keep doing harder content) to gear out in the other stuff anyways so why hinder them in a way where they are forced to climb this ladder because its smarter? unless they ignore all content and just cap the new tome for the gear then yes they can avoid all that other gear but i don't see why it matters there.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Yh your all right guys, ilvl means nothing. So many ilvl 67 titanEX runs u are all holding in PF, no doubt.

For all geniuses saying how ilvl 90s suck and ilvl 48s are the best players known to man, you do realise someone can go to ilvl 90 doing nothing but praetorium? You do realise primal weapons can and are bought? good, nice to see we cleared that up. Produce better arguments please.

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you say your argument is better because players think ilvl = skill? you just made our points clear and shot your own down gear is worthless it's about skill i50 players can be better then i90 because of skill it goes both ways which is why the ilvl requirement is fine, titan ex is doable at i67 but players believe unless you're a certain ilvl you suck and don't deserve to be in their party.

produce better arguments plox <3

Those calling for this to be higher iLvL likely just want to faceroll it like they do WP. If you can't beat it at that iLvL chances are you're the bad, not those attempting it at the minimum requirement.

Who said anything about skill? What requires skill? Are you referring to natural talent here or what?

Skill=/= experience. It is not many players who can progress through the relic quest, gearing dl/ct/myth by using many different forms of content, and somehow learn NOTHING.

But wait, lets look at other perspectives. Why do we get weapons in a game? why are we getting an ilvl cap raise and the new hardest dungeon will be roughly half that cap? Shouldn't the new dungeon be something to aim for? a stepping stone one must reach? Oh but u want fresh 50s with no experience wearing 1-2 pieces of DL, who have no experience of the game in your parties.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

Those calling for this to be higher iLvL likely just want to faceroll it like they do WP. If you can't beat it at that iLvL chances are you're the bad, not those attempting it at the minimum requirement.

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Personally I would like to see it be a higher ilvl because haukke and pharos have ruined duty roulette for me. Sorry that I don't want to spend 90 minutes in a dungeon, often times trying to carry a single shitty player, only to not complete it or get any reward. ilvl requirements are supposed to be a minimum requirement and based on the experiences I get in those 2 dungeons at least 50% of the time I get them I wish they were higher too.

Thankfully they're going to make duty roulette party optional soon though so I can say goodbye to all the baddies and help new players that actually want to put some effort in.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

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stepping stone? it's just gear, the stepping stones are coil, you must beat t1-5 to enter t6-9.

yes i would much rather have a fresh i50 player then 90% of the i90 players on any server look at the way you're acting? you're saying you're better then the new players and they need to get better before they have any right to play with you.

High ilv requirements are not to "ask for skill". It's precisely because we can never be sure about player skills that people sometimes require "high" ilvs. There's no way to know how good "you" are, but at least high iLv assure you have good gear. That's all a high iLv requirement means. It's not to filter "non-skilled" players, it is as a safeguard that assures you that the possible bad player will at the very least have high gear to offset this.

No one denies you can do anything at much lower ilv than most people ask for, if you are good. It's just that we can't really expect a completely random player to be good.

i55 means you're a fresh 50 just dinged.

i65 would have been a better choice.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

stepping stone? it's just gear, the stepping stones are coil, you must beat t1-5 to enter t6-9.

yes i would much rather have a fresh i50 player then 90% of the i90 players on any server look at the way you're acting? you're saying you're better then the new players and they need to get better before they have any right to play with you.

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Who said anything about better? When a dungeon is completed, do people stop to consider who is better? Nope, I don't think so. As I already said, experience =/= skill, and it is kinda expected that a player should have some, before tackling harder content. Sorry if my previous post didn't convey that. I see experience as something everyone can have.

And why not have a stepping stone in the dungeons? oO This is a healthy thing for a game to have.

I want the best for this game lol, I don't want content facerolled by overgearing. I don't want ilvl 2000 on this at all lol.

Edit: yes I realise ilvl =/= skill, but surely someone with higher ilvl, even 70 lol ( which is nothing! ) has a greater chance of having experience, than a freshly dinged 50

AdvancedWind has it. There seems to be a an intense backlash against high ilvls to the point where some people are actually suggesting that a higher ilvl is an indication that you're a less skilled player. As I pointed out before, increasing the ilvl requirement here wouldn't even lock people out unreasonably. It would just prevent the hardest dungeons form being the first ones you attempt.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

stepping stone? it's just gear, the stepping stones are coil, you must beat t1-5 to enter t6-9.

yes i would much rather have a fresh i50 player then 90% of the i90 players on any server look at the way you're acting? you're saying you're better then the new players and they need to get better before they have any right to play with you.

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Did you even read their post? They didn't say that they were better than anybody, simply that skill is not experience and that people gain experience from doing content. In fact I would go a step further and say that she was claiming that people are equal with different experience levels, which I completely agree with. Do you really think you need some natural skill to play this game? It practically holds your hand throughout the entire game.

Also, who are you to say that coil should be the only stepping stone? Yoshi claimed that this will be the hardest dungeon they have released yet, seems like people should have to do some easier dungeons to get gear/experience (you call it skill, i call it experience) before attempting this one. For somebody who talks about experience so highly you don't seem to think that people need much of it.

Also consider this: These new dungeons will be the ONLY source of the new tome. Before, myth tomes were available though many different dungeon difficulties. This means the fresh 50 WILL queue for these new dungeons. And who can blame them? Square has clearly set it up so fresh 50s can instantly start gaining the new tome, in my eyes.

Better gear doesn't = better skills but it's true most of the time the person with the better gear will play better than the one with the not so good gear. Then again, this game just hands good gear to anyone so it's harder to tell.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Also consider this: These new dungeons will be the ONLY source of the new tome. Before, myth tomes were available though many different dungeon difficulties. This means the fresh 50 WILL queue for these new dungeons. And who can blame them? Square has clearly set it up so fresh 50s can instantly start gaining the new tome, in my eyes.

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It also means that you can use party finder and not have to worry about solo queing in duty roulette though. They also said that people will be able to que up for duty roulette in a party some time in the near future so that will further solve the problem. Party finder will become the new norm and duty finder que times will continue to increase if people can't que up and get some guarantee of success. I like a challenge but in my opinion a challenge doesn't mean carrying somebody through something then losing anyways, so I will be sticking to party finder and FC members for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

yes i would much rather have a fresh i50 player then 90% of the i90 players on any server

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uhh...

good luck with that...

Funny thing is, people take offense to this attack on the ilvl requirement, but its out of care for the general state of the game that I say these things. I left an mmo and started ff one month ago, I don't wanna leave another one so soon.

experience doesn't = skill

experience is knowing the bomb rotations in titan or that you should feed slimes to cad in t1

skill - being able to dodge landslide or be able to healer properly

ilvl has no effect on skill nor does doing wp, ak or ct 100 times having skill is based solely on the player a player will only get better if they so choose to.

now on to my point you can not blame ilvl for a players lack of skill if they can't dodge something if they can't get their rotation down if they can't do these things it is not the games fault it's the players, course does that mean we should shun them and tell them to get better before they are allowed to do the conten. you can force players to do an easy dungeon like wp for philos and myths and get i70 and i90 gear but that will not make them any more useful in content.


the community is the issue with how dungeons are not the game.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

experience doesn't = skill

experience is knowing the bomb rotations in titan or that you should feed slimes to cad in t1

skill - being able to dodge landslide or be able to healer properly

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Experience = skilled gained
Being able to dodge ls and plumes = gained through experience.
Ilvl- Increased due to beating the tougher fights which shows that you have the experience.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Experience = skilled gained
Being able to dodge ls and plumes = gained through experience.
Ilvl- Increased due to beating the tougher fights which shows that you have the experience.

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skill gained? not at all it doesn't require skill to see that titan drops bombs.
point two proves my point how is someone supose to get better at titan if he has to have experience to even do it? they don't so they do it and get better.
you beat tougher fights due to skill not experience i can do titan 100 times but if i don't have the skill i can't beat it = not expience but skill.

experience is just that seeing the content and getting to know it.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

point two proves my point how is someone supose to get better at titan if he has to have experience to even do it? they don't so they do it and get better.

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First

Get good enough gear to eat moutain buster if you're tank and be able to soak up good dmg so put less stress on the healers.

Get good enough dd gear so you can break the the heart if you're dd.

2) Practice party or videos so you don't go in as a dead weight.

3) Learn through experience.

This fresh 50 fear is unwarranted.

Assuming you're implying 1st class/job, then items are i55 body, i50 Head, Hands, Legs, Feet. Even if they load up their right side it will likely be ~i45ish. And for s&g I'll assume i55 weapon, since you can get that from GC. That means you have overall iLvL of 48.75. Even cranking the right side with all i50 only gets you i50-i51. Throw in the new i55 hunting log ring and you might bump to i52.

If you're not implying 1st class/job, then they would likely already be familiar with some of the other runs.

People aren't going to finish main story and auto-magically queue up for these new HM as soon as they are done.

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Originally Posted by Doo

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what do you mean get good enough gear to eat mountain buster or gear to break heart? the ilvl requirement means you can take mountain buster (as long as you don't sugar coat your ilvl wearing worthless gear to meet it is different) the ilvl requirement also means you have enough dps to break heart definitly if you pf it and 5 dps and not 2 tank it.

i am merely saying in the end people say ilvl is a problem but when it comes to it the problem is skill and not being able to do what is needed to beat it, i said in another thread the better gear you have the less skill you need, i have been doing titan hm alot as a i90 tank and man is it tons easier then when i was i70 when i had 5k hp instead of nearly 7 now i just press 1 2 3 and take every bomb and every weight of the land and laugh at it while not trying because i am way over geared. which has been my point the this whole thread the ilvl is based on skill not gear.

also depends what you mean learned through experience, you can experience a battle 100 times as i said already but without the skill you will never beat it, exp does not =skill experience only tells you what will happen next skill decides if you pass what happens next.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

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that is my point everyone wants players to beat it on their first try. by doing them? so you're saying it takes seeing something happen alot to know it's coming? like i said we know when bombs drop in titan once you experence it all it takes is skill or getting more skill to do it, has nothing to do with experience.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

You must be magic or something, you became skilled at something without any experience doing it. Maybe you should write a book to explain your theory since clearly everybody else in here doesn't understand you. I'm sorry but saying you are skilled at something and that it didn't take experience to become skilled at it is just pure balony. Perhaps you should reconsider your understanding of the word experienced and then get back to us.. or you know.. go write your book.

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how so? i did do it once i experienced the bombs i knew how to do it. then it just took skill (less skill in a sense then knowing a full rotation) to move to the last bombs so the first ones could explode and i can move to the first ones so i take no damage. so in the end experience taught me what to do and skill helped me pull it off.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

I have to agree with this guy. The minimum iLevel for both Titan Hard and Titan Extreme is far too low. At the minimum(if the entire party is), you will barely be able to break the heart in time and tanks cannot take a Mountain Buster simply because they lack the HP without expert staggering of their cooldowns. Basically fighting at minimum makes the fights hard as shit.

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that is how all dungeons go the less gear you have the more prepared you have to be and skill you need to beat it. which is why people want higher ilvls why try when you can faceroll it.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

You're missing my point entirely, you were not born skilled at playing ffxiv. You became skilled at playing ffxiv because you played a lot of content and learned how the game works. The thing that seems to be going over your head is that you need to experience things to become skilled at something, the 2 words a pretty much interchangeable. You can apply that to pretty much any situation, real life and video game. Bruce Lee didn't become a kung-fu master by being born a skilled at kung-fu, he became a kung-fu master because he practiced like hell until he had enough experience to become one.

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that is where you are wrong, i will never be good at kung fu (using you example) no matter how long i try i will never have the skill or ability to do it i just won't, experence shows you what you need to do while skill pulls it off. meaning experience is not skill because unlimited experience will never give you the skill.
practice makes perfect its called honing your skills for a reason not honing you experience.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Having the ilvl requirement to do it does mean it's possible but let's be real only like one percent of the population is good enough to do that. Everyone else definitely needs the gear.

It's both. Skill and gear goes hand in hand. When you have less skills than the elites, then gear will definitely help you. That's why players want the ilvl to be bumped up.


You might not beat it in 100 tries but I'm sure most players will leave being a better player. Experience will help you anticipate better and make your timing better through repetition.


It's not about wanting to beat it first time. You can prepare as much as you like and still fail over and over. It's more about having a real chance to beat say Titan.

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this is all true, now i will say i am not saying do titan or be forced to do titan at the lowest ilvl i am merely saying it is possible.( or any content for that matter at the bare minimum)
now i will also the reason why experience is not skill is because as you said the more you experience it the more you anticipate things and get timing better but in the end is that not skill? there are players that do titan alot and never get better at timing or anticipating what is going to happen would you say they are just not experiencing the content when they are? when in fact they just aren't getting better or more skill?

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Originally Posted by Doo

It's not about wanting to beat it first time. You can prepare as much as you like and still fail over and over. It's more about having a real chance to beat say Titan. We all been in groups where we realize it's not going to work no matter what.

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i have infact been in a group where i knew we would not beat it, but i did not blame gear because i know all to well it was the fact that everyone was taking wotl's and landed and by heart phase we had 2 dps 1 healer and the tank. or the fact that the dps didn't use heavy thrust (drg) monks never positions and attacked in 1 spot smns didn't even try to keep dots up at all times simply spamed ruin and use dots now and then things that show it was the players fault and not the gears fault.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Lol so whats the point of gearing? we have ilvl 90 atm, yet people are claiming they can beat titan at ilvl 67( BS =D ). Next patch we're gonna go for ilvl 100-110. I guess this is all useless? All these pros saying how titan ex is clearable at 67, and that high ilvl just compensates lack of skill , are not gonna go ahead and get these gears?

What people want, is progression. We want content that requires us to have high ilvl. So that the gear we spend time/effort acquiring has a use. is everyone just getting gears for vanity purposes? to compensate their lack of skill? I myself would like to think my gear is going to good use, and is actually required.

More accurately, if this new dungeon IS clearable by ilvl 55, then that really is a joke. No damage check? hp/heal check? Vitality check on tank? No reason in the world at all for us to have spent time getting gears? I lift my hat to people who WANT a game like this.

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you are getting that gear for the new coil, while it will be doable the new tomes will make it easier (sorta like how it is now) you are not getting tomes to do normal fun dungeons you are doing it so that you can do the end game raid.

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Originally Posted by Doo

It's skill gained through experience which is how most players learn in real life and in games. Yes some players learn at a slower rate and some aren't capable of learning because learning itself is a skill.

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so wouldn't that mean we would have to give players a chance to experience the content to get better? the whole point of me saying this is people want players to get exp (not saying you) on a specific boss by getting experience from other dungeons which would not help their skill on that said boss because he is not those other bosses or dungeons. you won't get better at titan by doing wp or ak or even another primal like ifrit or garuda you have to fight titan to learn and get better at titan.

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Originally Posted by Doo

We should in the right environment. Mixing players that are experience vs newer players in the hardest content is not going to end up pleasant most of the time. There's Duty Finder (which still is bad), FC/lS, and practice party finder groups for that. Having the proper gear and the proper learning environment will help more new players more than anything rather than sticking them into content they don't belong to learn with players that are at a higher skill level/more geared than them.

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don't belong there? they belong there just like better skilled and better ilvl'd players i have been saying this all day, and it no offense to anyone the problem is the community players who are i90 and been playing for months feel more entitled to things (entitled is the only word i can think of atm) everthing has to be how they want it, like we have been talking this whole time new players have to accommodate to veteran because they are better and know what they are doing.

now i will say the same can be said duty finder wise with new players they feel better players should be forced to play with them and suck it up. i simple say this in regards to DF if you are unhappy with your group be it new or vet leave take that 30 minute penalty. it is your choice to be part of the group or not but you have no choice in what a player can or can't do content wise when they make the cut to enter it.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

all this talk of skill.....*disappointed*

Its so much simpler than that. This is a game focused on on 2 things. Clearing content, and gaining ilvl. Think of ilvl as getting something you need from part A, in order to be able to complete part B. Why not have to NEED a certain amount of gear to complete a dungeon? As I said a few times: progression... to make gear actually required, and not just something that makes content go faster/less forgiving.

My last mmo was tera. Its last major patch provided endgame gear far surpassing previously available gear, gained from content that was hugely easier than the current hardest content at the time of that patch. As you might have guessed, people who enjoyed the pve aspect of tera soon quit. You guys wanna see that happen to ff? I hope coil t6+ has massive gear checks..

This post is in response to the heros who think all content is clearable at minimum ilvl, which I disagree with until I see full titanEX in ilvl 67 video =D

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don't worry it is :) it will be just like coil was when it first came out, i90 will be needed to do it that is where the gear progression is needed, you need i70-90 to do t1-5 so players will gear out in i70 (and some i90 cause they will get myths) and once they can do coil because they are i70 they will get i90 and once i90 they can start turns 6-9 (if they has beaten t5 in that time)

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

Hah, well I guess there's no point in debating if you think there are things you can't do. You're only limited by yourself I suppose, to me people can do anything they set their mind to. I've proven this to myself countless times by learning new skills that I did not have any inherited ability to do, amazing what a little practice and dedication can do. I guess if you want to say you can't do something then that's your problem really. Enjoy playing with all the "skilled" fresh 50s who have no experience, I'll just wait until I can join content with friends again.

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when did i say fresh 50's were skilled? i merely said if they have skill they have it experience isn't going to change that only skill. if you can't learn you can't learn.
it goes for all players i90 players who aren't skilled won't be skilled.

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Originally Posted by necrosis

And this is what pisses me off. They need to stop nerfing things and raise the iLVL.

Stop letting people bring a knife to a gun fight.

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guess you haven't played gunz before or played re4 :P don't bring a gun to a knife fight

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

experience is just that seeing the content and getting to know it.

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Hahaha you show me a player who can kill titan extreme (or even hard for that matter) on their first try without dying and I'll agree with you. Trying to say that experience has nothing to do with skill just proves that you don't know what you're talking about. How do you think that you become skilled at something? Is is magic? Last I checked people get better at things by doing them often.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

that is my point everyone wants players to beat it on their first try. by doing them? so you're saying it takes seeing something happen alot to know it's coming? like i said we know when bombs drop in titan once you experence it all it takes is skill or getting more skill to do it, has nothing to do with experience.

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You must be magic or something, you became skilled at something without any experience doing it. Maybe you should write a book to explain your theory since clearly everybody else in here doesn't understand you. I'm sorry but saying you are skilled at something and that it didn't take experience to become skilled at it is just pure balony. Perhaps you should reconsider your understanding of the word experienced and then get back to us.. or you know.. go write your book.

You're missing my point entirely, you were not born skilled at playing ffxiv. You became skilled at playing ffxiv because you played a lot of content and learned how the game works. The thing that seems to be going over your head is that you need to experience things to become skilled at them, the 2 words a pretty much interchangeable. You can apply that to pretty much any situation, real life and video game. Bruce Lee didn't become a kung-fu master by being born skilled at kung-fu, he became a kung-fu master because he practiced like hell until he had enough experience to become one.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

Things about Titan

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I have to agree with this guy. The minimum iLevel for both Titan Hard and Titan Extreme is far too low. At the minimum(if the entire party is), you will barely be able to break the heart in time and tanks cannot take a Mountain Buster simply because they lack the HP without expert staggering of their cooldowns. Basically fighting at minimum makes the fights hard as shit.

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Originally Posted by Yurimi

No one denies you can do anything at much lower ilv than most people ask for, if you are good. It's just that we can't really expect a completely random player to be good.

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And thats the risk you take when you pick up randoms. I suppose for party finder its fine to set any filters you wish. For DF you roll with the punches, good or bad players, high ilvl or minimum. They really need to start enforcing these Vote Kick rules and punish abusers accordingly. Its not fair to the players who havent broken any of the games rules just because their ilvl is out of someone elses comfort zone. They are very specific on what grounds are allowed to kick someone for and "I dont like his ilvl" isnt one of them.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

the ilvl requirement also means you have enough dps to break heart definitly if you pf it and 5 dps and not 2 tank it.

i am merely saying in the end people say ilvl is a problem but when it comes to it the problem is skill not gear.

also depends what you mean learned through experience, you can experience a battle 100 times as i said already but without the skill you will never beat it, exp does not =skill experience only tells you what will happen next skill decides if you pass what happens next.

that is my point everyone wants players to beat it on their first try. by doing them?
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Having the ilvl requirement to do it does mean it's possible but let's be real only like one percent of the population is good enough to do that. Everyone else definitely needs the gear.

It's both. Skill and gear goes hand in hand. When you have less skills than the elites, then gear will definitely help you. That's why players want the ilvl to be bumped up.


You might not beat it in 100 tries but I'm sure most players will leave being a better player. Experience will help you anticipate better and make your timing better through repetition.


It's not about wanting to beat it first time. You can prepare as much as you like and still fail over and over. It's more about having a real chance to beat say Titan. We all been in groups where we realize it's not going to work no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Kayo

And thats the risk you take when you pick up randoms. I suppose for party finder its fine to set any filters you wish. For DF you roll with the punches, good or bad players, high ilvl or minimum. They really need to start enforcing these Vote Kick rules and punish abusers accordingly. Its not fair to the players who havent broken any of the games rules just because their ilvl is out of someone elses comfort zone. They are very specific on whats allowed to kick someone for and "I dont like his ilvl" isnt one of them.

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You probably shouldnt change someones words and the entire meaning of the post they make if you are quoting them if the actual quote doesnt make your post fit simply copy and delete (cut) the quote and edit your post and post it after do not completely alter a quote the way you wish to see it =P

my post was simply stating my arguement behind the difference of gear vs skilll and the set minimum requirements of the dungeon I am neither for or against it as I will either do it with friends or not do it at all.

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Originally Posted by Nutz

AdvancedWind has it. There seems to be a an intense backlash against high ilvls to the point where some people are actually suggesting that a higher ilvl is an indication that you're a less skilled player. As I pointed out before, increasing the ilvl requirement here wouldn't even lock people out unreasonably. It would just prevent the hardest dungeons form being the first ones you attempt.

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I'm going to go with this. It suspiciously feels like people are projecting whatever grievance they have had with geared players and making up hysterical arguments about a fresh 50 somehow being this prodigy player, and they will always be in your DF group.

It feels pointless to have this low of a dungeon drop tomes for the next top tier gear. Either it doesn't making it even more pointless, it does giving the absurd situation that you get better rewards from a faceroll that fresh 50s can do than em primals, or it's actually difficult and the ilevel req is absurdly low-balled.

Lol so whats the point of gearing? we have ilvl 90 atm, yet people are claiming they can beat titan at ilvl 67( BS =D ). Next patch we're gonna go for ilvl 100-110. I guess this is all useless? All these pros saying how titan ex is clearable at 67, and that high ilvl just compensates lack of skill , are not gonna go ahead and get these gears?

What people want, is progression. We want content that requires us to have high ilvl. So that the gear we spend time/effort acquiring has a use. is everyone just getting gears for vanity purposes? to compensate their lack of skill? I myself would like to think my gear is going to good use, and is actually required.

More accurately, if this new dungeon IS clearable by ilvl 55, then that really is a joke. No damage check? hp/heal check? Vitality check on tank? No reason in the world at all for us to have spent time getting gears? I lift my hat to people who WANT a game like this.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

LOLOL

Just because you have a particular piece of gear doesn't mean you know your class.

I've seen TONS of people with EX weapons who were just terribad. I've played with people with Allagan weapons who had no idea what they were doing; they won the weapon and their other Allagan in greed-rolls and never really played the class before.


I keep seeing people with Allagan weapons here and there and set higher standards for them...so far, I've been more disappointed than satisfied.

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Looks like I was not clear. Of course I was not counting greed roll or cheaters. I was talking about players on their main class. I have the SMN book and the warrior axe, yet I don't even have lvl50 of either. So yes I was talking about players who went through the entire process with twin with their main job.

As for ex will, my FC alone generated 120+ million gill from ex sales so yeah I did not mean to include buyers, greed rolls or cheaters.

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

Looks like I was not clear. Of course I was not counting greed roll or cheaters. I was talking about players on their main class. I have the SMN book and the warrior axe, yet I don't even have lvl50 of either. So yes I was talking about players who went through the entire process with twin with their main job.

As for ex will, my FC alone generated 120+ million gill from ex sales so yeah I did not mean to include buyers, greed rolls or cheaters.

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So...how can you tell the difference between the two by looking at them?

Answer: You can't.

A person who legitimately cleared content, on that class, will be an above-average player (at worst) even with worse gear. This means using their class properly, not overgearing to power through it or getting carried and not dying...


You pretty much proved my point of "gear really doesn't matter", especially since you're one of the people helping to make the problem worse.