Just realized - if you're a casual gamer, ideally....

I would like to say to OP. Great discussion article. It is like an editorial. Love it. Didn't really read all in here, but I am glad there is a fun and thought-provoking discussion. Very interesting.

Oh, and I would like to add, I am now a casual gamer (in my opinion). But not by choice. I work 10 hours a day, live with my girlfriend, and have other responsibilities. By that alone, I don't have time for anything, much less video games. I try to cram in as much gaming as I can, and I see the value in it as a 'cheap-fun,' unfortunately I got to engage with my lady friend (which usually involves spending money). I will end by saying FFXI saved me a lot of money through college and graduate school.

P.S. I try to be hardcore on weekends.

Most MMOs rolling off the markets these days develop some content with casuals specifically in mind. And to be perfectly fair, this game probably won't appeal to casuals at all because the gameplay is not on par with single-player RPGs and the content is for the most part either non-existant or existentially boring.

(Also note that some of those hardcore players of yesterday eventually get lives of their own and, consequently, "go casual".....)

Furthermore any healthy society and/or ecosystem has different types living in coexistence, we may not play the same way but what one person does will invariably affect another's even though and maybe especially since they are different. It's not because the benefit of casual gamers aren't apparent to you that they do not contribute to your own gaming.

Please let's try to be less intolerant and narrow minded and try to focus on fun things for the game. We are not going to agree on ALL the game's features but if we can get to the understanding that what one group wants may very well benefit the other in the long run we can stop this ridiculous tug of war we've got going. it's utterly pointless and destructive.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

Furthermore any healthy society and/or ecosystem has different types living in coexistence, we may not play the same way but what one person does will invariably affect another's even though and maybe especially since they are different. It's not because the benefit of casual gamers aren't apparent to you that they do not contribute to your own gaming.

Please let's try to be less intolerant and narrow minded and try to focus on fun things for the game. We are not going to agree on ALL the game's features but if we can get to the understanding that what one group wants may very well benefit the other in the long run we can stop this ridiculous tug of war we've got going. it's utterly pointless and destructive.

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Well said. Went all macro-economics on us. Like it.

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Originally Posted by Carmillia

To repeat again and again to try to have some people understand it, casual means 'time available to play', why some people keep on thinking that casual equals easy mode?
As a good example, CoP missions (pre cap removal) were casual friendly (did not take hours and hours just for one mission for an organized group of friends) and hardcore due to the high difficulty of some of the fights. This is exactly the type of content that can cater to both casual and hardcore!
But nooooo, some unskilled player just cried that CoP was too hard and it got nerfed... In my opinion, a MMO should set differences in terms of good and bad gamer, not casual vs hardcore which usually ends up (for the wrong reasons I might add) being either 'easy mode' vs 'time sink'. Ideally, none of the laters should apply in a MMOs that could cater to both casual and hardcore.
About my own experience, I am casual (and also plan to play for more than 2-3 years >.>) and the 'easy mode' direction FFXIV is taking does not please me. On top of that, I was kind of happy to 'struggle' the rank46 mission. It took me a few attemps and I was happy to not just beat it by spamming 1,1,1,WS,cure rince and repeat. It could have been even harder that I would still have enjoyed because I finally was facing some 'challenge'.

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In game world those who can play 1-10hrs a weak dubbed "Casual"
Those who can play 20-40-90(lol) a week are dubbed "Hardcore"

And your thoughs on CoP WHAT!!! casual cop was one of the things in the game that before abyssea came out their were still some people who didnt have rajas ring because the fight was insane. "Three Path" Mid-High "Airship Fight" Or 6-4 - Hard x Hard x Really SE x Rage Quit (For some) then you had 8-1 - 8-4 before that you had 8-3 Pot fight which if you werent good at your job your pretty much not going to pass it .... OHH OHHHH OHHHHHHHH and their was xp loss with it too CoP casual my donkey

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P.S. Casual =/= "easy, quick, vapid, unchallenged, etc"

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if only mmo developers would make casual challenging. I don't mind faster, challenging gameplay (at least as a part of an mmo) but a lot of developers tend to make things so even a 5 year old retard can finish stuff. They mix up casual with retarded. This is my main problem.

I think a lot of the "casuals shouldn't play an mmo" thoughts wouldn't be there, if
- the devs wouldn't kill the meaning of an mmo by making casual mmo player = solo rpg but online (doesn't make sense to me but that's the way they all approach the casual stuff.
- casuals don't have time and (like yoshi posted) need to be able to play while having a mobile on the other hand...
which means => easy mode and not challenging. I think that part of the letter made it way too clear.
But exactly these casuals also change mmos like underwear because they are so easy and not challenging.
And with challenging i don't mean timesinks (even though i don't mind fun timesinks but i understand if ppl don't like it),
i mean real hard, and fun content.

I have said this before and I will say it again. Hardcores are the ones with a problem. I don't know how they do it. I just like to have fun with games. Even if I can't do as much as a hardcore it's nice when I get into a guild with people I can just talk with or be like anyone need help and have fun doing something.

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Originally Posted by kanjitai

I have said this before and I will say it again. Hardcores are the ones with a problem. I don't know how they do it. I just like to have fun with games. Even if I can't do as much as a hardcore it's nice when I get into a guild with people I can just talk with or be like anyone need help and have fun doing something.

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but you would love to get what we get with out even trying

Unfortunately FtP and increasing console games are where casuals are.

Subscription based games just don't draw casuals anymore, not when there are much better alternatives.

Just look at any Free to Play MMO...they make most of their money on casuals, simple from the allure of being free.

I love how Hardcores believe they're entitled to exclusive stuff just for their "dedication".

one of my points is content can be hard but not require a huge timesink. Take relic weapons from 11. The reason they were so hard to get was because of how long it took. Not because of the work it took and don't even get me started about how players made it harder with lot rules and zone schedules.

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Originally Posted by kanjitai

one of my points is content can be hard but not require a huge timesink. Take relic weapons from 11. The reason they were so hard to get was because of how long it took. Not because of the work it took and don't even get me started about how players made it harder with lot rules and zone schedules.

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I really hope they make dungeons/endgame events an actual challenge instead of regular mobs with crap rates. Salvage was the perfect cure for insomnia.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Unfortunately FtP and increasing console games are where casuals are.

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I thought WoW was casual and the "new" FFXI was casual.

Which both have fairly large populations.

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"Three Path" Mid-High "Airship Fight" Or 6-4 - Hard x Hard x Really SE x Rage Quit (For some) then you had 8-1 - 8-4 before that you had 8-3

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Dude, there is a difference between written and spoken language for a reason.
People can't see your hand signals and how you get all worked up in a forum >.>;

The difference is casual, casual hardcore (we stick around for years with limited playtime and may binge where time permits), hardcore, and dedicated hardcore (they stick around for years in a guild, only unsub from RL (aka death), massloads of drama, or GM banning will keep them away... EQ 1 is churning out expansions for somebodies and some folks aren't going to leave Vana'diel)

Content we can do with limited time with friends and game buddies can be more appealing than a single player game. Where in an hour, you can get something done (2 behests, 3~6 levequests, kill a couple dozen mobs, craft through a Netflix episode). Versus traveling 30 to 45 min (thank you anima! *gets clawed by a large chained creature, Yuna watches*), only to find that without that fourth party member, you can't do anything tonight or that someone died 20 min in and has to rerun that path (or us in to escort). And it might take a year or two to do all the things a player with more time can do in two or three months. And by then, there will be more to do (we hope) to keep us around.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I thought WoW was casual and the "new" FFXI was casual.

Which both have fairly large populations.

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6 years ago, WoW increased the MMO playerbase 100fold simply by making the game more accessible then the competition.
F2P is basically doing exactly the same, removing yet another barrier of entry, though this time by means of affordability, not game design.
Console MMOs are removing the barrier of hardware complexity, though as the first attempts have shown, this makes it neccessary to adjust the basic game design to accomodate for the simpler controls. Once they get that nailed down, there's a huge untapped market to get into.

Quite honestly MMOs aren't for people who have no time to dedicate to them -- mostly because then they demand the game be suited for them which pretty much lessens the overall experience for everyone else because the developer would rather suit the majority (who have no time to play the game) than those who have a lot of time and want harder more longer lasting content.

I fall into the "Casual Gamer" crowd but I also have time to dedicate to the MMO. Though in the end, it's very hard to make an MMO that suits people who have no time and people who have all the time in the world. Ragnarok did pretty well with this with their WoE 2.0 system but most new MMOs just go the generic route and make everything easy and short lived.

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

6 years ago, WoW increased the MMO playerbase 100fold simply by making the game more accessible then the competition.
F2P is basically doing exactly the same, removing yet another barrier of entry, though this time by means of affordability, not game design.
Console MMOs are removing the barrier of hardware complexity, though as the first attempts have shown, this makes it neccessary to adjust the basic game design to accomodate for the simpler controls. Once they get that nailed down, there's a huge untapped market to get into.

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My point was that it's silly to say that casuals don't play subscription based games.

I believe that gamers are slowly coming to the realisation sub conciously that nothing is accomplished by playing games so spending excessive amount of hours to level up, get a rare item is purely a waste of time. We would like to beleive;the illusion is given, that we accomplished something but, that accomplishment is virtual. With that said, making games less of a timesink is very important.

Hardcore gaming is not profitable. There is not enough hardcore gamers to support MMOs and hardcore gamers cost more with regards to content, server usage etc. Casual gamers generally would require less content, place less load on the server and pay the same as a hardcore gamer. On a per user basis aiming the game to casuals simply makes financial sense.

One of the issues that plagued this game, is that everything seemed to be a timesink, even the simpliest operations. The initial game was plagued with not only game design timesinks but UI timesinks(intentional or not). At the end of the day, playing games is a past time, something folks do for fun. When this past time is not fun or it consumes too much time; and there is no real reward, folks leave.

There are many games that are casual but can be thoroughly enjoyed by the folks who consider themselves hardcore.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

My point was that it's silly to say that casuals don't play subscription based games.

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They don't anymore, when now we have newer business models. Just like itunes is #1 because it's business model destoried the competition.

Free to play or otherwise, paying for extras are much more favorable to casuals, because they "feel" they only pay if they want to, and play as they want to. The only barrier of entry is money for paying "better" items, and casuals have that in spade when you look at their spending habits.

Same with Console game, now that they have networking abilities. DLCs and "pay up front" games are doing the exact same thing. They only play when they want play and pay when they want to pay and have the same luxuries as traditional types.

You really should start looking at free to play games or DLC like games (Guild Wars) if you really believe that content is king. Because money is king. The cater to your spending habits and playing habits, and still have a server community that traditional MMO have.

You can even hang around the gift card areas of your local store and count the people suddenly walking up and buying cash shop cards...it's incredible what a business model around casuals can do.

Make 90% of the content for the 90% casuals,
and 10% for the 10% hardcores.
Sensible.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

They don't anymore, when now we have newer business models. Just like itunes is #1 because it's business model destoried the competition.

Free to play or otherwise, paying for extras are much more favorable to casuals, because they "feel" they only pay if they want to, and play as they want to. The only barrier of entry is money for paying "better" items, and casuals have that in spade when you look at their spending habits.

Same with Console game, now that they have networking abilities. DLCs and "pay up front" games are doing the exact same thing. They only play when they want play and pay when they want to pay and have the same luxuries as traditional types.

You really should start looking at free to play games or DLC like games (Guild Wars) if you really believe that content is king. Because money is king. The cater to your spending habits and playing habits, and still have a server community that traditional MMO have.

You can even hang around the gift card areas of your local store and count the people suddenly walking up and buying cash shop cards...it's incredible what a business model around casuals can do.

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Casuals play wherever they want to play. Subscription based or not, they're going to play if they want to. As far as Guild Wars goes, it has content for casuals and for the more "hardcore" crowd.

But yes, free to play games (especially those with item malls) have larger populations...but it's also larger in general and not just in proportion to subscription based games.

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Originally Posted by VeranRamaden

An MMORPG is not for you.
This isn't to troll, even though it seems it, it just struck me -
if I was a casual gamer, why the hell would I play a game that has so
much content (not exactly talking about XIV here guys) and only have say
a few hours (1-10) a week to play it? Here's the math;

sub free on avg is about $13 bucks a month;
well if you're only playing lets say 2-8 (median 4) hours a week,
so 16 hours a month and you're paying $0.81 for each hour you play.
Compared to MMO "hardcore" and "whatever the hell mediumcore is"
who will play a given 10-25 hours a week (median 17ish hours)
they're paying $0.19 cents for every hour.

Not only that (voodoo math), but casual gamers will most likely only
complete about 25%-40% of the actually game.

So you pay (lets say avg price for game is $55) for the game,
then casual gamers play for lets say 2-3 years max (2.5) $390
and the hardcore gamers will play for 5-7 years (6; given steady content flow) $936
so it ends up the hardcore gamers actually get what they paid for all in all.
Granted, $936's....is a freakin' lot. But given a good, continuously moving game,
I could see it being worth it. Not so much almost $400 in subs just to finish under a
quater of the game.

I just do not see why if you did not have adequate enough time to
play through 'time sinks' as people like to call challenging and difficult MMO's
would waste their time and money on a MMO.
This all leads to there should be more emphasis on hardcore content
(60%/40% at most, hardcore being higher #) because they will
A.) most likely finish most if not all content available
B.) will get the most bang for their buck
C.) will give the company the most money in return.


Well....I guess this is kinda trolling.
But, when I think of an MMO, I tend to think of the words "difficult, challenging, rewarding, in depth, etc".

Not "easy, quick, vapid, unchallenged, etc"



Bombs away.
-mini rant done-

Oh, and I don't hate casual players lol.
I just don't think that FFXIV should be most concerned with them.
If it was mostly casual, people would burn through content and be bored with the game.

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I don't get your point. How is it your concerns how a person spend their earnings? Yoshi already said there would be content for both casuals and lolhardcore (people think that time = hardcore players but w/e).. the whole casual on the week nights and hardcore on the weekend concept, which sounds great to me.

the other end, casuals that can only spend 10-15hrs a week probably don't care about the $936 it cost a year to play since those people are actually working and can afford it. "Hardcore" players who can spend more than a heathyly recommended are mostly unemployed people or kids living at their parents and they are the ones not having a big income. If their parents decide they are not paying anymore then they can't play. Yoshi is smart to cater to more casual people since WE can afford this game and the more content that pleases both casuals and weekend hardcores the better the for game's community and wealth.

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

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You had me until you stated the above. Do people even know what is trolling? And how are you to assume he has no "life"? The last part of you entire post was absolutely unnecessary and is attacking the OP instead discussing the actual topic at hand.

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Originally Posted by geniusprime

You had me until you stated the above. Do people even know what is trolling? And how are you to assume he has no "life"? The last part of you entire post was absolutely unnecessary and is attacking the OP instead discussing the actual topic at hand.

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Yup I got carried. I have no right to assume and therefore I will edit my post because after smart calculations I find that someone can spend a lot of time on this game even if they work full time and have friends/family/other responsabilities. I just think that his unbased attack on casual players are unwelcomed.

It isn't about creating content that's aimed at specific demographics like the "hardcore" or the "casual", but rather creating compelling content and then structuring it in a way that accommodates a wide variety of playstyles.

That's pretty much what varying difficulty settings, which we've had in games for decades, are for. If some people want a challenging co-op experience in Gears of War, they grab another FPS-savy buddy, dial up the difficulty to extreme and make a night of it. If someone just got home, wants to shoot up some locust but doesn't want to go through the frustration of having to restart every now and then, then tone the difficulty back to whatever they feel comfortable with and game on.

Same exact game, totally different(and equally valid) playstyles. It's all about options and playing your way, and this is where Final Fantasy XIV(and any other game really) should be.

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Originally Posted by VeranRamaden

An MMORPG is not for you.
This isn't to troll, even though it seems it, it just struck me -
if I was a casual gamer, why the hell would I play a game that has so
much content (not exactly talking about XIV here guys) and only have say
a few hours (1-10) a week to play it? Here's the math;

sub free on avg is about $13 bucks a month;
well if you're only playing lets say 2-8 (median 4) hours a week,
so 16 hours a month and you're paying $0.81 for each hour you play.
Compared to MMO "hardcore" and "whatever the hell mediumcore is"
who will play a given 10-25 hours a week (median 17ish hours)
they're paying $0.19 cents for every hour.

Not only that (voodoo math), but casual gamers will most likely only
complete about 25%-40% of the actually game.

So you pay (lets say avg price for game is $55) for the game,
then casual gamers play for lets say 2-3 years max (2.5) $390
and the hardcore gamers will play for 5-7 years (6; given steady content flow) $936
so it ends up the hardcore gamers actually get what they paid for all in all.
Granted, $936's....is a freakin' lot. But given a good, continuously moving game,
I could see it being worth it. Not so much almost $400 in subs just to finish under a
quater of the game.

I just do not see why if you did not have adequate enough time to
play through 'time sinks' as people like to call challenging and difficult MMO's
would waste their time and money on a MMO.
This all leads to there should be more emphasis on hardcore content
(60%/40% at most, hardcore being higher #) because they will
A.) most likely finish most if not all content available
B.) will get the most bang for their buck
C.) will give the company the most money in return.


Well....I guess this is kinda trolling.
But, when I think of an MMO, I tend to think of the words "difficult, challenging, rewarding, in depth, etc".

Not "easy, quick, vapid, unchallenged, etc"



Bombs away.
-mini rant done-

Oh, and I don't hate casual players lol.
I just don't think that FFXIV should be most concerned with them.
If it was mostly casual, people would burn through content and be bored with the game.

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But the rest of your post just described why they actually should.

Also, even if 20% of the players account for 75% of play time and server loading, the remaining 80% of the players still account for 80% of the incomes.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

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Options are definitely a good thing for it makes it more accessible to everyone.

omg, this pissing contest is ridiculous. these absurd terms 'casual' and 'hardcore' are completely without meaning and are only thrown around to establish territory. You might as well tell my mom she really shouldn't be going to the mall since, after all, teenagers are by far the most hardcore mall shoppers. This thread is total nonsense.

I won't bother reading the thread when it's obvious "casual" content exists because the mmorpg market is saturated, so it's necessary to cater to every possible user and slam together casual and hardcore stuff to have them all playing.

Of course, it's like slamming an army base and a kindergarten together, but to producers and developers that's really only an obstacle to cross to reach the holy grail of a plus sign in their income review.

It's not that casuals go play mmorpgs with wrong ideas or faulty understanding of the value of their game time, it's that mmorpgs are being made to target hardcore and casuals alike. 0.19$ per hour or 0.83$ per hour, it doesn't matter if they have fun playing.
...and spending four bucks to play a social game over a weekend in the comfort of your home still beats most other forms of entertainment anyway.

A better topic would be whether a game that targets both hardcore and casual players can actually be entertaining for either of them.

Id say the ultimate problem is making a distinction in the first place

I don't understand why "casual" gamers are equated with stupid, kiddy or folks that can't play or understands games. Casual simply indicates that most of your time is not spent playing games.

If you're casual you can afford to spend more money per hour of game time cause you actually have a job.

The other fact is, if the game is more tuned towards people who are only playing, max, 1-3 hours a day, then the developer doesn't need to make tedious things take as long.

In some ways (putting aside the lack of real content and the horrific grinding to get levels) this game has some mechanics that are very nice for casual players, such as anima - which would leave a truly casual player in a situation where they didn't need to spend time walking all over the world, for example. I think that is a good mechanic.

Locking this thread due to the presence of troll bait.