Is Inner Beast Duration To Short ? Vote

It seems the general consensus is Inner Beast would Be More Reliable If:

-It were off GCD
-Wasn't Limited to Hitting Something

What if Inner Beast Was Tweak to Be like......:

Inner Beast ~Cast: Instant, Recast: 0 (Can only be executed when Infuriated.)

You become Enraged and Feel the Adrenaline Rush Running through your body, damage recieved will be reduced by 20% for the next 6secs.
Addition Effect:If your within range, You will strike the enemy with a devastating blow with a potency of 300.
Ignoring damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.

This is exactly how it is in game now except it will be off GCD and you can still at least get the 20% DR even if theres nothing to hit .

Would also be cool if you gain a red aura during the 6secs.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Addition Effect:If your within range, You will strike the enemy with a devastating blow with a potency of 300.
Ignoring damage penalty inflicted by Defiance.

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The damage would need to be reduced to 150 potency instead of 300 to prevent it from increasing the average potency per GCD, and you forgot about the self heal (would need to be doubled to maintain the same amount of self healing).

The other issue would be as to how the tweaked Inner Beast chooses the target. It couldn't be an AoE because that would just be nuts. The easiest implementation would probably have it target a single random target within 4y, but that would create some problems whenever you've got multiple nearby targets but want to hit one and ignore the other (Titan EX with the bombs when you're tanking Titan). The optimal solution would probably be for it to target whichever enemy you have targeted and hit a random target within range (or no target at all) when you either don't have a viable target, but I'm not sure how programmatically viable that would be since there isn't really anything like that in game at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The damage would need to be reduced to 150 potency instead of 300 to prevent it from increasing the average potency per GCD, and you forgot about the self heal (would need to be doubled to maintain the same amount of self healing).

The other issue would be as to how the tweaked Inner Beast chooses the target. It couldn't be an AoE because that would just be nuts. The easiest implementation would probably have it target a single random target within 4y, but that would create some problems whenever you've got multiple nearby targets but want to hit one and ignore the other (Titan EX with the bombs when you're tanking Titan). The optimal solution would probably be for it to target whichever enemy you have targeted and hit a random target within range (or no target at all) when you either don't have a viable target, but I'm not sure how programmatically viable that would be since there isn't really anything like that in game at the moment.

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Hmmm dont think thats a good idea, Inner Beast is our signature move and if the potency was reduced to 150 more people would prolly use Steel Cyclone over Inner Beast. We dont want that. I think we should keep the heal and potency the same but have a 2.5 - 5sec reuse CD. Similiar to how Energy Drain/Fester works with SMN.

As for your second point, I think it could be tweak to work similiar to Vengeance but instead of hitting everything that hits you back, it could counter attack (300 Potency) on the first target that hits you within that 6 secs. And if there is nothing to hit you still get 20% DR.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Hmmm dont think thats a good idea

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It's called math. Having it stay 300 potency while being taken off of the GCD would make it *incredibly* strong because that potency is in addition to whatever was done in the GCD itself. Even if the potency were reduced to 150, people still wouldn't use Steel Cyclone over it because Steel Cyclone would still be on the GCD whereas Inner Beast wouldn't be. Keeping it at 300 potency, you'd be, effectively, increasing the potency you get from the IB GCD from 400 potency (300 / .75) to ~610. It's also increasing damage because IB wouldn't be consuming a GCD, which means that you'd be able to use it every 17.5-20 seconds instead of every 20-22.5 seconds.

For Inner Beast to be taken off the GCD without it being a direct increase to WAR damage (and increasing burst damage substantially on top of that), the potency would *need* to be taken down. If you honestly think that people would use Steel Cyclone over it, you simply have no idea what you're talking about.

You wouldn't use Cyclone over IB in Kitru's example, SC has no damage reduction.

I wonder, though, if IB went to oGCD, would it have the same animation delays as other oGCD abilities? Right now it feels pretty reliable, not so with Holmgang, Hallowed, Benediction type oh-snap buttons.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

For Inner Beast to be taken off the GCD without it being a direct increase to WAR damage (and increasing burst damage substantially on top of that), the potency would *need* to be taken down.

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Making Inner Beast off-gcd wouldnt be game breaking and would not make WAR's DPS King of the hill. Espcially when you consider:

1. WAR comes in Dead last in having Off-GCD attacks (Next to WHM). As it is in game today, Warrior has only 1 exclusive Off GCD attack, Brutal Swing with a depressing 50 potency. Sure we have Mercy Stroke with a 200 potency, But thats very situational & is shared with PLD, MNK, DRG. At least PLD has Spirit Within (300 Potency) & Circle of Scorn (100 Potency +30 potency DoT), Both of these can be used every 25-30sec with no limitation of needed wrath stacks + they can use Mercy Stroke too.

2. To even get stacks to use Inner beast, you have to be in Defiance in the first place. This factor alone destroys any hope Warriors had of being a great DPS Tank or even coming close to a True DPS, DPS. Its laughable to think WARs DPS in defiance will come close to SMN with Festers, DRG with Jumps, MNKs with Grease Lightning, and BLM with astral fire Flares. You focus on the potency but you forgot to account for alot of other things like Gear, Job Stats & Traits, and how many off GCD attacks other classes have compared to WAR. When it comes to DPS, WAR dps is near the bottom of the list.


3. And lastly Mathimatically you might be able to use Inner Beast every 20 secs, but we all know that is not the case in real life, especially in boss fights. Sure, you can spam it and your dps will go up, but you will be hurting yourself in the long run when you really need it for the mitigation. And then what will you say ? "I'm Dead, but at least i hit him really hard.... No, Your primary focus isstaying alive, not dps, the added dps would just be a bonus. A Smart WAR will not spam Inner Beast unless its for killing trash. A Smart WAR will save it for right before a big boss hit. Secondly, A 20sec Inner beast is only possible in a fight that requires no movements and no debuffs (slow, paralyze, etc) which are becoming less and less as SE becomes more and more creative with Boss fight Dynamics. And if you are able to pull off 20 Sec Inner Beasts every single time while dodging fight dynamics, Then Good job, 20sec Inner Beast is a fitting reward for your great play.

Your response Sounds like a knee jerk response,which is strickly your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I dont think anyone likes your idea and doesnt want to see Inner Beast Nerfed to 150 Potency. It is our signature move and should be strong.

Honestly, as an active mitigation tool...I would lik to see it something like:

Inner Beast: 4 second duration, takes 3 of 5 Wrath stacks, mitigates 30pct of damage. Remove the healing aspect, and place on it an enmity generation. That would make it perfect imho.

It would be more readily available for use when you need it, but you still have to balence keeping up your wrath stacks and mitigation buff with everything else you can do...cool downs, overpowers etc, the things that do not generate wrath will give you less mitigation over time. I would probably also give Tomahawk a +1 wrath too, so a hawk and the first threat rotation would be enough to start up your inner beast.

But that's just me, I feel that right now beast has the ability to really make this calls a great active mitigation class, which is fun in other games, but it's just not there right now. It needs to mitigate more, but last less, and be able to be cast more often to make it perfect.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

1. WAR comes in Dead last in having Off-GCD attacks (Next to WHM).

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Which has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed. It doesn't matter how many off-GCD attacks a class has because off-GCD attacks are not the entirety of a class's performance. WAR manages virtually all of its damage without any off-GCD attacks. PLD gets slightly more than 1/6th of its damage from off-GCD attacks. It doesn't make PLD better than WAR; in fact, WAR still does more damage than PLD even though PLD has more off-GCD attacks that also happen to deal more damage than the one off-GCD attack that WAR has (250 and ~300 potency each).

Also, you're forgetting BLM, which has *no* attacks that are off of the GCD. Depending upon how you intepret Bane, SCH is tied with WAR at only having 1.

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2. To even get stacks to use Inner beast, you have to be in Defiance in the first place. This factor alone destroys any hope Warriors had of being a great DPS Tank

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Except that WAR *already* has very impressive damage. It doesn't need to approach the DPS of a true DPS in order to have DPS that is too high for its given role. WAR is already breaching that point if you're playing it properly. I often do upwards of 60-75% of a DPS's damage as a WAR, which, given that a tank is supposed to deal roughly 50% of the damage of a DPS, is outrageously high. WAR damage doesn't *need* to be buffed. Hell, it *shouldn't* be buffed at all because it's plenty high.

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Your response Sounds like a knee jerk response,which is strickly your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I dont think anyone likes your idea and doesnt want to see Inner Beast Nerfed to 150 Potency. It is our signature move and should be strong.

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Except it's not being nerfed. You assume that it's being nerfed because you're oblivious enough to think that any reduction in potency is a nerf. The only change that my suggestion (which, keep in mind, I'm don't even think is needed; I'm perfectly happy with IB being on the GCD and only wish it last an extra 1-2 seconds) would cause is taking it off of the GCD. The average damage would remain exactly the same.

If IB were *not* reduced in potency while being taken off the GCD, you're increasing average potency per GCD. There's absolutely no question about that.

As to it being a knee-jerk response that no one else agrees with, if you go back and actually read the discussion instead of skimming it, ignoring it, or only reading the last 2 comments before you post, you'll see that several other people shared the same concern when the idea of it being taken off-GCD was brought up and that I actually did the math to explain how it could be taken off GCD without affecting average potency per GCD appreciably. I actually put forth thought concerning my answer and made sure it was consistent with existing balance concerns and accounted for the consequences of changing it.

It wasn't knee jerk and there are plenty of people that agree with me. The fact that you're oblivious to that just cements my opinion that you've got no idea what balance actually is. You honestly believed that reducing the potency to 150 while taking it off of the GCD would cause people to use Steel Cyclone instead. That's enough of a demonstration of your lack of understanding about the subject.

P.S. Your spelling is terrible. They're spelled "mathematically" and "strictly". Most browsers have integrated spellcheckers that I suggest you use.

Increasing the duration would make it pretty overpowered when used back to back with Infuriate.
Decreasing the damage reduction would be a nerf.
Off-GCD could be fun but it shouldnt be needed unless you dont know the boss well enough. If you dont have stacks for every titan em mountainbuster you're doing it wrong (protip: dont need to always finish every combo chain). IB doesnt work during cast bars/animations anyway so i dont see much of a need for this. Theres no point in being able to react quickly, you have to know its coming. So, be a second faster in knowing.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

As to it being a knee-jerk response that no one else agrees with, if you go back and actually read the discussion instead of skimming it, ignoring it.

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It's funny you accuse me of not reading/ignoring your comments and turn around and do the same thing yourself. If you read my comment you would see that I didnt disagree with your point that it will increase WAR damage during that GCD and the point I was trying to make is that Good players use Inner Beast for its DR so its not like were going to spam it to incease DPS. And regardless if it increase WAR's damage per GCD, it still wouldnt be enough to make WAR OP like you were implying. And your belief of that tank DPS is suppose to do less than 50% of true DPS is just another opinion. When I use to play WoW, I was almost always TOP DPS as a Warrior Tank.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

P.S. Your spelling is terrible. They're spelled "mathematically" and "strictly". Most browsers have integrated spellcheckers that I suggest you use.

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Typical Kitru LMAO. Attacking anyone who doesnt agree with her/him. I could have said 99.9% facts and you would still have a snarky counter attack as long as I disagree. Spell checking people on the internet. smh. Someone give this guy a medal.

Im sorry, I thought I was making a entry on a forum, not writing a critically acclaimed novel. I'll make sure to hire a editor ASAP.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

And regardless if it increase WAR's damage per GCD, it still wouldnt be enough to make WAR OP like you were implying. And your belief of that tank DPS is suppose to do less than 50% of true DPS is just another opinion.

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What you're forgetting is that the desired effect was to take IB off of the GCD without impacting anything else (since there was no argument to improve any other value concerning WAR). Simply taking it off of the GCD would increase DPS while simultaneously allowing it to be used off GCD. Changing that single aspect of the ability impacts multiple end values. If all you wanted was to have the ability to use IB as a mitigation and self-healing mechanism off-GCD (which is what is desires), the damage would need to be reduced in order to prevent it from acting as a damage increase as well.

It's not question of WAR becoming OP with the change but rather whether an increase in damage is justifiable. WAR already deals substantially more damage than a PLD while tanking so it makes next to no sense to further increase WAR damage when there is a very easily implemented way to take IB off of the GCD while minimizing collateral effects.

You're the one that believed that the damage should remain the same because otherwise people would use Steel Cyclone while also stating that any reduction in the damage would act as a nerf even if the damage per GCD remained exactly the same. Neither of those is true. What you're arguing for is the removal of Inner Beast from the GCD while also increasing the WAR's damage, which is perfectly fine to argue, but, by doing that, you're arguing that WAR damage is too low and needs to be increased.

The entire point of the reduction in potency and increase in percent-of-damage-as-healing was to preserve the current level of performance while providing the desired modification in usability. Simply taking it off of the GCD changes performance (increasing damage, burst damage, and potential use rate) on top of modifying usability. You're ignoring everything else that the change would create out of arbitrary obtuseness.

What's funny about this is that you're accusing me of having a knee jerk reaction when I've actually thought about the results of what such a change would do more than you have, as evidenced by your continual ignorance about the effects as well as jumping to completely inaccurate conclusions.

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When I use to play WoW, I was almost always TOP DPS as a Warrior Tank.

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If you were top DPS as a Warrior tank in WoW, you were either throwing out AoE damage while the DPS was doing ST, which is just padding your numbers and therefore moot, or you ran with *really* bad DPS. Tanks have always done substantially less damage than DPS with the standard convention being roughly 50% (such that 2 tanks, 4 DPS, 2 healers translates into ~5 DPS), which is why tanks have always had outrageous threat modifiers (which WoW has continually increased in size because DPS growth always manages to outstrip threat growth). If a tank ever dealt as much damage as a DPS, it would be broken as hell because tanks built to be as durable as possible; that's the trade off: higher survivability means you have lower damage. When tanks are competing with DPS on numbers, there isn't much reason to bring DPS.

Kitru, while I overall am agreeing with your assessment of IB oGCD increasing damage, you really are only looking at it from a theoretical mathematical standpoint, instead of a practical one. Yes it will theoretically increase DPS of Warrior, it doesn't even take math to realize that. In realistic/practical use, it'll probably be less then a fractures use however. If a Warriors is OTing, they should be dropping Defiance to increase DPS, which makes IB oGCD moot. If they are MTing, they should be using for spike damage as its designed, which having it oGCD will effectively do nothing but quality of life while we continue our normal rotations instead of sitting on our thumbs.

The only time a Warrior is going to be in the position to Spam IB is fights like Ifrit EX where you are constantly switching between MT and OT. In these situations, its still better for the Warrior not to spam IB, and at best they'll get one off before needing Infuriate up for an actual mitigation on Ifrit mechanics. Same can be said for fights like ADS, etc. Not to mention the chance of a spike crit hit of IB on tank swap, mixed in with GCD abilities would most likely rip threat off MT easily.

I really wonder how much DPS increase a Warrior would see if literally spamming every available IB with oGCD, and how it'd compare to a Warrior dropping defiance as needed instead, and IBing only during Spikes. I'm certainly leaning toward unnoticeable, but I'm not a number wizard like you Kitru. ;)

Well for a day I put on a bunch of str accessories and went full str allocation and did some titan hard just playing like a dps with aggro. i did like 200ish dps.

warriors i think are very capable of doing good damage even if it is not competitive with the damage output of a well equipped dps player.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I often do upwards of 60-75% of a DPS's damage as a WAR, which, given that a tank is supposed to deal roughly 50% of the damage of a DPS, is outrageously high. WAR damage doesn't *need* to be buffed. Hell, it *shouldn't* be buffed at all because it's plenty high.

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I would agree with you if the average Warrior Did 60-75% DPS of a Pure DPS . But you are fully Spec STR with Pure STR DPS Accessories (Striking & Maiming) which is only ideal in content that you are over geared for. Realistically the average War DPS is about 50% of pure DPS while in Defiance (without sacraficing alot of VIT and Parry for STR build like yours). Also, I think its kinda contradicting of you to say that WAR DPS is OP and should not be buffed but then intentionally try to max your WAR DPS.

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Originally Posted by Traek

In realistic/practical use, it'll probably be less then a fractures use however. If a Warriors is OTing, they should be dropping Defiance to increase DPS, which makes IB oGCD moot. If they are MTing, they should be using for spike damage as its designed, which having it oGCD will effectively do nothing but quality of life while we continue our normal rotations instead of sitting on our thumbs.

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Traek captured my point exactly . No one is saying it wouldnt increase WAR DPS per GCD . But my point is the suggested change to Inner Beast was aimed more to be a QoL change . If a WAR really wants to push DPS, he will drop defiance all together. I believe there are alot things to consider that will keep Warrior DPS in check compared to a pure DPS (-25% Damage penalty in Defiance, WAR primary stat compared to DPS, Most tank gear dont have DPS stats on them, Inner Beast should be used to mitigate damage > DPS, etc)

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

I would agree with you if the average Warrior Did 60-75% DPS of a Pure DPS . But you are fully Spec STR with Pure STR DPS Accessories (Striking & Maiming) which is only ideal in content that you are over geared for. Realistically the average War DPS is about 50% of pure DPS while in Defiance (without sacraficing alot of VIT and Parry for STR build like yours).

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Except that I have all of my points in VIT and only hit the 75% mark when using full DPS accs (and, even then, not crafted ones; just the offspec ones I've gotten from raiding). I regularly manage 60-65% of a DPS while in full tank gear.

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Also, I think its kinda contradicting of you to say that WAR DPS is OP and should not be buffed but then intentionally try to max your WAR DPS.

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No, contradicting myself would be saying WAR DPS is OP and then further suggesting that WAR DPS be buffed. Balance and optimization are completely different constructs. Balance is a development concept whereas optimization is a player concept (though, keep in mind, optimization must be kept in mind for balance). I maximize my DPS while maximizing my survivability because that's the way to make myself as effective of a tank as possible. The only way that it has anything to do with balance is the relative performance between my optimized performance and those of other classes, which serves as a gauge to ascertain whether WAR needs to be changed.

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But my point is the suggested change to Inner Beast was aimed more to be a QoL change . If a WAR really wants to push DPS, he will drop defiance all together.

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Then why does Inner Beast deal any damage at all? Damage might not be the primary goal of a tank, but it's still a consideration. It's not a question of whether a WAR wants to push and maximize current DPS but whether it increases DPS while the WAR is tanking. Taking it off the GCD while keeping the damage as is would increase DPS while tanking any time that you were tanking. It doesn't matter if a WAR could turn off Defiance to do more damage because I'm not talking about a WAR dropping Defiance to max damage. I'm talking about the increase to damage that a WAR *not* trying to maximize damage would get because your change increases damage along with the usability of IB.

Your entire problem is that you seem to care more about keeping IB the same while only changing one aspect of it instead of trying to maintain the performance of the class as a whole while only changing how one ability is used. Simply taking IB off of the GCD without changing its damage increases WAR damage. It doesn't matter if you think that it's a small change or not because it's an increase to damage no matter what. Reducing the damage by half and doubling the self heal keeps the damage and self-heal almost exactly the same while having the same QoL improvement.

As an example, imagine putting Brutal Swing onto the GCD. It's only 50 potency, which is horrible for an on-GCD ability, even if it's a stun. It make up for the decreased value of it being an on-GCD attack, its damage would need to be increased to maintain the current level of performance (which provides an extra 6.25 potency per GCD). The exact same process is true when discussing taking IB off of the GCD: its damage needs to be lowered to maintain the current level of performance. The only reason *not* to change the damage/self-healing would be if you believe that WAR needs more damage.