Why mark targets?

In my experience, a lot of tanks who refuse to mark are the same tanks that can't keep aggro on multiple mobs. Don't complain about what mob(s) your group chooses to DPS if you actively take no part in group organization. I especially like it when the tank tells DPS to just watch the enemy health bars. Again, my experience. I don't personally care if a tank marks or not as long as they aren't a jerk about the possible consequences.

It seems to me that you think (the one who started the thread), as it is so frequent to find Duty Roulette overgeared players everywhere, the normal situation is being overgeared and marking is not that important. In a normal situation where the group is not overgeared, the sooner the first mob dies (and second, etc.), the more probabilities of things going well, less damage received, and probably things go quicker (the less mobs there remain alive, the quicker they die, less damage received, the more a healer can DPS, and healers DPS is strong if they have the possibility to use it.) I think marking 1 might be enough so that the effort concentrates in that one, that might be important (the right Tonberry, the healer mob, etc.) or just convenient for quick deaths. Once that 1 is dead you can mark 1 the next to die on the list. If you manage to mark quickly, mark more numbers. Sometimes it is not necessary, in places where it is evident all know well the place and wiping with trash mobs is very unlikely, and the tank will have no problems to keep enmity.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

Sleeping targets is pretty much the worst thing possible for damage, and is to be avoided. Party compositions are not made to always include a WHM or BLM with sleep, and the dungeons simply aren't tuned to require it.

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A lot of techniques in the game are based off team composition. The purpose of sleep isnt to maximize damage, its to save your tushie. Especially if, like you said in your original post, none of your DPS have AoEs. DoTs can tick through sleep if applied beforehand.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

For Bard, I'll Windbite and Venomous Shot a second target, but mostly for Bloodletter proc against the first.

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Unrelated to this post, im a fresh Bard. If you apply Windbite and Venomous Shot to multiple targets, does each application help proc the Bloodletter refresh?? Cuz if so.... thats kinda amazing

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Originally Posted by MrDiezel

Unrelated to this post, im a fresh Bard. If you apply Windbite and Venomous Shot to multiple targets, does each application help proc the Bloodletter refresh?? Cuz if so.... thats kinda amazing

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i believe so, couple with straight shot and MNK x-class for maximum effect.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

.....using only single-target combos yields inferior damage.

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Mnk says hi.

Unless you have the kings of AoE (BLMs) and a Prince (BRD) to back them up AoE is usually slower than single target focusing.

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Originally Posted by Skies

Second, you are in fact fundamentally wrong about the DPS of dots and AoEs. For melee, at least. For both monk and dragoon one of our DoTs is in the tail end of a combo, DoTs also take far too long to tick down completely, more than the encounter should last after the application of the first comboless one so there would be a long stretch of time where we should use our AoE attacks.

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It takes Demolish 9 seconds, maximum, to beat out Snap Punch. IOW, if the target will live more than the next 9 seconds, Demolish > Snap Punch in all ways. For Touch of Death, it takes a bit longer, more like 18 seconds. But, then, all MNKs know that Touch of Death is one of the first things you drop anyway.

For BRD, multi-dotting is the best thing you can do for damage. It takes Venomous Bite 6 seconds and Windbite 9 seconds to match/outpace Heavy Shot, respectively. If you have a target up that doesn't have a dot on it yet, the only thing you should be considering is enmity and time to live (unless you're massively low on TP).

I don't know DRG very well, so I'll leave it to someone else to decide what's worth it there.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

If you're applying DoTs evenly across enemies and also spreading your single-target weaponskills, then almost all enemies will take longer than 18-30 seconds to fall.
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In this case you may be maximizing damage, but at the expense of other things. For example, when you kill a monster it can no longer deal damage to you, which means the healer and tank's jobs gets easier. However if you deal equal amounts of damage to all monsters you'll have to put up with the max amount of damage sustained for the entire duration of the pull.

There are also many situations where an enemy group isn't sitting in a tiny little compact space. You've got ranged monster hitting you from afar. To spread dots and single target weaponskills out evenly would require the melee dps to run from target to target after every GCD, which would ruin your dps.

There are also many situations where a single monster poses way more of a threat (or maybe just an annoyance) than other monsters (like the succubus in AK, who can hit you with powerful AoE magic) and should be killed so that threat is eliminated. This is also the case in dozens of boss fights. If you don't kill the adds, they'll eventually overwhelm you.

Not marking is not related to DDs getting more clear initiativ to DoT secondary targets, though if you mark targets at least they know which the secondary target is. I.e main target is not worth DoT'ing unless the DoT would get 4-5 ticks mostly, and not often that happens i.e monk having crossed fracture. Also you'll lose hate eventually in some situations, use the mark system and not be lazy :-)

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

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1) That's cool, but the OP already said he only meant for this to apply when incoming damage is not a concern.

2) Doesn't apply to BRD, so you agree BRD should always multi-dot? And that melee should multi-dot if the mobs are close together?

3) Those monsters are often still part of a pack. Kill them, then spread dots over the rest of the pack. BTW, the Succubi in AK should never even touch you. . .

How hard is it to macro a marking icon to your pulling ability like tomahawk? Not very hard. The least you could do is make that macro so that people know which target you are focused on. If you're a good tank, that's a good practice, then you should be rotating your enmity abilities through the rest of the pull to keep it going on you. Then you should be focusing on the target DPS is attacking next, which is usually the mob with the next lowest health pool, which you can control by attacking your desired 2nd target after you've secured significant enmity on your primary target.

You spent 100x more time making a post about anti-marking when you could have made that macro and solved the problem. It's not like people in your DF groups are going to come here and read your post and have a new view of the issue at hand. You're the "leader" of the group. I think tanks should act like it.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

How hard is it to macro a marking icon to your pulling ability like tomahawk? Not very hard. The least you could do is make that macro so that people know which target you are focused on.

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I actually really dislike macros like this. All it takes is to accidentally double-tap and it's gone, or if you lose aggro and provoke+shield lob a secondary target, suddenly that one's #1, etc.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I actually really dislike macros like this. All it takes is to accidentally double-tap and it's gone, or if you lose aggro and provoke+shield lob a secondary target, suddenly that one's #1, etc.

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I double tap all the time. GCD allows me to tap once more without wasting usage on the ability, yet reestablishing the marking icon. Just takes practice.

I can't speak for PLD. Maybe it's not as great for you guys. And it really doesn't matter if you switch that 1 mid-fight. I have accidentally done that, too, and people don't usually switch their focus target. Even if they do, it's never proven to be the end of the world. All that matters is what people are attacking the first 15 seconds of the fight, to be honest. :)

(Not including adds. People need to know when to attack adds, so that doesn't really apply to this point in the discussion).

My reason for marking isn't about threat since people rarely pull off me. It's more so to reduce damage I'm taking since less enemies means less things hitting me. I prefer if people AoEing or multi-DoTing though, but any single target attacks should be focused on the lowest numbered target. Plus, if I'm taking less damage, it means the healer spend more time DPSing.

I think the OP has it the wrong way round, as a BLM marking targets increases my DPS, no doubt about it. It doesn't make a massive difference but it's still information I can use when judging which targets to re-aply DoT's too and sometimes which one I should use for my single target stance flip spells or thundercloud/firestarter procs. Then consider as a BLM I have a cast time so if a mob is at 5% health there is no point throwing a spell at it if the other DPS is a good single target job, it will be dead before my spell finishes and I'll stand there like a nugget interrupting myself. If I know what the next target for the tank is (I can't read minds and different tanks do things differently) then I could be doing something constructive to the next focus target instead.

A party that's all on the same page and attacks mobs in an intelligent and timely fashion will always run better than one that allows chaos to decend on it, marking makes the former far more likely so why not do it?

It's actually better for a melee to focus one target. We have to worry about positioning for our rotations and combos, having to then cycle through othet targets and move is just a hassle and lowers DPS. Also, focusing on a single target is more TP efficient.

People can come in with their fancy stats, etc, but this game isnt about flat damage.

Also, the quicker a mob dies, the less damage it does, the easier the healers job is, dont be an inconsiderate tank. You have just as equal, if not more important role in managing your health.

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Originally Posted by baopee

because people do not know how to read these

http://eorzeareborn.com/wp-content/u...mity-Meter.jpg

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I was looking for someone to explain toe me these numbers... what does they actually means

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Originally Posted by baopee

http://eorzeareborn.com/wp-content/u...ter-Enmity.jpg

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and what does this have to do ?
is it a sequence of targets , and for others not to mark?

Because there are so many insane tanks nowadays that say "If you don't attack my target, I am not going to even attempt to hold agro."

Macroing mark with tomahawk/shield lob is a bad idea. Say you want to mark something else mid fight, you may have just wasted 120 tp. Might need that tp in long fights or to start the next set of adds quicker.

Honestly, most DPS should be capable of watching which mob you attacked first and burn it down first then go for lowest health. Meanwhile I'm securing hate on the other adds so said DPS can go all out on their next targets. I don't lose hate, one mob dies so the healer can throw out more DPS instead of spamming heals on me and the DPS can maximize their damage in any way they wish.

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Originally Posted by Rak_Boy

I was looking for someone to explain toe me these numbers... what does they actually means

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The numbers are the party members' place in the enmity list for the currently targeted enemy. A has aggro, 2 is #2 in enmity, etc.

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Originally Posted by Rak_Boy

and what does this have to do ?
is it a sequence of targets , and for others not to mark?

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That's the enemy target list, and I think it's a beta screenshot, since the red dots aren't shaped like that anymore. It's a measure of enmity for everything you have any enmity on at all. Small green/blue dot means you're nowhere near taking enmity. Yellow triangle means you're getting closer. Orange triangle means you've almost got enmity. Big red dot means you have enmity.

Ok, I'm a healer main and I personally prefer targets to be marked. I've been with groups who have ran dungeons without marking and all and all things turned out fine butttt in my experience most dr groups are far to unorganized to just run threw, the damage ends up split between the mobs and the pull usualy ends up lasting longer than it would have taken to just mark the kill order. The tanks often lose their holds an I have to end up spamming massive cures all over the place. In a small mob it's not a problem, but it ends up taxing my mana pool and increases the risk of me pulling aggro off the tank. Not saying its wrong not to mark but it help when the buggers are to dead to deal damage...

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Originally Posted by BazFamrit

Macroing mark with tomahawk/shield lob is a bad idea. Say you want to mark something else mid fight, you may have just wasted 120 tp. Might need that tp in long fights or to start the next set of adds quicker.

Honestly, most DPS should be capable of watching which mob you attacked first and burn it down first then go for lowest health. Meanwhile I'm securing hate on the other adds so said DPS can go all out on their next targets. I don't lose hate, one mob dies so the healer can throw out more DPS instead of spamming heals on me and the DPS can maximize their damage in any way they wish.

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You shouldn't have to mark something else mid-fight, and if you need to, then do a manual mark. Not a big deal. The tomahawk/shield mark macro is really only for the first pull. ALSO: If your GCD is activated, you can press the macro button, mark the target only, and not use the unnecessary ability. For example, a group spawns, run to them, target the mob you want focused, cast overpower, and during that 2.5sec GCD, hit your tomahawk/mark macro. Win. There are solutions to a lot of problems :)

I haven't had time to read every reply, but to answer the OP, I mark targets when tanking in order to keep the attacks more organized.

I find, in general, parties like it when I mark because it allows us to down mobs faster. We'll all attack mark #1 while the BLM, for example, can cast sleep on the others and watch their timers if needed. Also, sometimes certain enemies take priority over others, so another good reason to mark.

I also always tell new players that I'll mark for them to make it easier.

Idk, since I just finished my PLD to 50, I feel I've gotten very nice comments from parties when I help with marking. Also, since I leveled DRG, BLM and WHM first, I think knowing those roles have me a very different look at tanking.

The one thing I don't do though is take forever to mark lol. I can mark and run at the same time :P

Honestly it's best not to read the replies, because the thread quickly devolved from "why should you mark", which was just a catchy title, to "all dps should dot absolutely everything all the time", which relies on some skewed math, the presumption that all targets dotted are going to survive for the entire duration of a dot, and other givens that don't reflect common dungeon conditions.

This thread is about ready to die. Marking is a good thing. Complaints about how DPS behave should go to the DPS forum, imo. =)

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

You shouldn't have to mark something else mid-fight, and if you need to, then do a manual mark. Not a big deal. The tomahawk/shield mark macro is really only for the first pull. ALSO: If your GCD is activated, you can press the macro button, mark the target only, and not use the unnecessary ability. For example, a group spawns, run to them, target the mob you want focused, cast overpower, and during that 2.5sec GCD, hit your tomahawk/mark macro. Win. There are solutions to a lot of problems :)

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Agreed. But marking is also a fix for the problem of bad DPS. Sometimes you have to mark mid fight for spawns if its a bomb for instance. The DPS should know to take it out first but sometimes they need a bit of guidance.

Like I said, DPS should be paying attention to which mob was attacked first and which has lowest HP and kill in that order. Its just common sense. So I refrain from marking unless its necessary.

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Originally Posted by BazFamrit

Agreed. But marking is also a fix for the problem of bad DPS. Sometimes you have to mark mid fight for spawns if its a bomb for instance. The DPS should know to take it out first but sometimes they need a bit of guidance.

Like I said, DPS should be paying attention to which mob was attacked first and which has lowest HP and kill in that order. Its just common sense. So I refrain from marking unless its necessary.

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Perfect world scenario agreement between both of us. World not perfect. Macro automates the process so it causes you no real grief and basically puts all of the burden on the DPS. "I marked target, why were you attacking cat?" Good DPS will have target/target macros and will do things like target you and then get their target from your focus and so on. Most DPS not good. Tanks are better at their job when they are using the tools set out before them. I'd rather us have a good run because I took the extra steps to cover DPS derping than to lay back with nothing to do because everything ran perfectly. That's boring in my opinion ;)

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Originally Posted by Bridgeburner

Honestly it's best not to read the replies, because the thread quickly devolved from "why should you mark", which was just a catchy title, to "all dps should dot absolutely everything all the time", which relies on some skewed math, the presumption that all targets dotted are going to survive for the entire duration of a dot, and other givens that don't reflect common dungeon conditions.

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While I agree that the op's argument has almost nothing to do with his title, very few dots require their full duration in order to be efficient. Just throwing that out there.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

How hard is it to macro a marking icon to your pulling ability like tomahawk? Not very hard. The least you could do is make that macro so that people know which target you are focused on. If you're a good tank, that's a good practice, then you should be rotating your enmity abilities through the rest of the pull to keep it going on you. Then you should be focusing on the target DPS is attacking next, which is usually the mob with the next lowest health pool, which you can control by attacking your desired 2nd target after you've secured significant enmity on your primary target.

You spent 100x more time making a post about anti-marking when you could have made that macro and solved the problem. It's not like people in your DF groups are going to come here and read your post and have a new view of the issue at hand. You're the "leader" of the group. I think tanks should act like it.

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If people actually viewed tanks as leaders, then obviously, I wouldn't have posted this, would I? I'm trying to get feedback on how to encourage DPS to maximize their damage, whether it's through AoE or with DoTs. I've tried reasoning, using math, or just being a dictator. Thus far, no approach has proven reliable.

My point was simply that marking targets almost always universally signals to DPS: "kill the enemies in this order". That's why I avoid marking targets. Other people have noted that it's possible to mark targets and also have DPS spread their DoT love, but it seems to be the exception and not the rule.

The first half of your post is irrelevant. If enmity is an issue, then nothing I said in my original post applies (please see the exceptions noted at the bottom).

For the majority of groups, those exceptions are not relevant (even if people seem to think they are).

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

While I agree that the op's argument has almost nothing to do with his title, very few dots require their full duration in order to be efficient. Just throwing that out there.

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Thanks for contributing. I would avoid arguing with that one, as it seems they're not really willing to debate the numbers (because apparently this means we "must see the largest possible numbers from each engagement to feel satisfaction"?).

It seems like almost blatantly obvious common sense that DoTs are the best tool in the damage toolbox, behind only AoE. I can see now that it's really not that apparent to most people.

Wel, ppl will learn when their characters hit the ground, it's that simple.

Just to toss out another comment about marking.
As a tank I don't always mark target. If I don't mark a target then I don't care which ones you focus on, I'll hold hate on all of them and if I loose hate on one then that is my fault.
If I specifically want a certain mob to go down first then I'll toss a 1 on it before I pull.

Only other time I mark targets is if a party member specifically requests me to do so. I had a guy ask me to mark in AV when we reached the first boss, so after the boss was dead I marked each pull. I would mark 1 first, pull and then mark 2 and 3.

Marking is not hard, but it's tedious especially when you've ran the same dungeon a dozen times and for the most party people should know the kill order. It's only really beneficial when there's a new person in the dungeon or someone who doesn't know all the pulls yet.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

It seems like almost blatantly obvious common sense that DoTs are the best tool in the damage toolbox, behind only AoE. I can see now that it's really not that apparent to most people.

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While I don't entirely disagree with that, I think it is kind of situational. As a Bard, I will DoT everything in the group but mostly because I want the Bloodletter procs. However, as a BLM, just because of cast time mostly, I feel like trying to keep my Thunder 3 up on all targets is slowing me down when I can be going through my ST rotation or AoE rotation. So in the case of my BLM, I wouldn't DoT everything.

EDIT: I know you said behind AoE, but I mean in a situation where it may be 2 or 3 mobs.

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Originally Posted by Bridgeburner

Also, your second graphic is actually showing the health bars of the enemies remaining on the field - not the threat. In the pic:

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actuallly his second picture does show threat Red yellow Green dots. If the Dots are green means you do not have agro.. if the dots are yellow that means you are getting close to pulling agro....and if they are red you have agro..... and they gradually change. So yellow doesnt go from bright yellow to red. It goes Yellow to yellow orange even darker yellow orange then red.

and they change shape as well for color blind people.

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Originally Posted by Hekmatyar-Koko

Also, the quicker a mob dies, the less damage it does, the easier the healers job is, dont be an inconsiderate tank. You have just as equal, if not more important role in managing your health.

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Not to mention that the less healing spam that needs to be done, the more the healer can potentially throw in some dps, which throws the whole "DoTs yield higher damage" argument out the window.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Not to mention that the less healing spam that needs to be done, the more the healer can potentially throw in some dps, which throws the whole "DoTs yield higher damage" argument out the window.

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It's like neither of you read where the OP repeatedly said "Don't do this if incoming damage is actually an issue!"

I believe that marking is a good idea and that most tanks in most situations should do it.
How dps react to marking is up to them, but it helps provide information and direction for what the tank intends.
It is also incredibly easy to do. In most instances when I am running a dungeon, I will just select my initial target and mark them with 1 as I am closing on them or right before the pull. Then after I have flashed and gone through a full combo and rotate to the next target to build agro I then mark them with 2 and so on.
This takes almost no time and can be very beneficial.

As a low lvl tank, marking is working out for me.

Ironically what isn't, is melee assisting me. They continue to assist me as I switch through mobs to keep hate up, which ultimately defeats the purpose of marking.

I'll still mark though, it's almost 90pct for the bard/blm though. Those are the only 2 I really give a rip about knowing what they are attacking. Once a mob leaves the pile, it makes things more difficult for me.

Fortunately, I've had pretty good success with people following the marks.

I understand the low lvl perspective isn't valued, but all the same, I see value in marking, and will continue to do it as long as I have room for the buttons to do so.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

If people actually viewed tanks as leaders, then obviously, I wouldn't have posted this, would I? I'm trying to get feedback on how to encourage DPS to maximize their damage, whether it's through AoE or with DoTs. I've tried reasoning, using math, or just being a dictator. Thus far, no approach has proven reliable.

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It is because your math relies on a lot of wrong assumptions:

1) That Physical DPS's have infinite TP. Most AoE's and DoT's have higher-than-average TP consumptions. AoE/dotting everything is simply not sustainable.

2) That Physical DPS have no upkeep buffs. Both MNK and DRG rely heavily on keeping certain stacks up.

3) Less Finishing Abilities. Mercy Stroke and Misery's end will be proc'd less if the mobs die at around the same time.

4) Tanks that don't mark are usually terrible. You are asking your party to both go the extra mile and take a leap of faith for an insignificant increase in DPS; whereas you can't be bothered to do something as simple as marking? I wouldn't trust you to keep hate on one target, much less 3.

5) It complicates Healing DPS. "Maximizing DPS" involves the healer contributing. The longer 3 mobs are up the less time a healer has to contribute. The longer mobs are up has an inverse relationship to how often I can Cleric stance-dps as a healer. The faster the first mob goes down the more DPS I can contribute.


As a tank one of the first things you have to learn is to know which DPS is best doing what. Your SMN and BLM should be DoT/AoEing everything respectively, whereas your MNK and DRG should be focusing single targets down (Wish small exceptions). Asking the MNK/DRG to AoE everything is like asking your SMN/BLM to focus a single target: it's retarded. It makes me glad that most of your parties had the common sense to stick to what they do best.

Trying to maximize DPS is a noble goal, but what you are doing is not the right way. I'd sooner free space for my healer to help (And tell him he should be) than run my melee DPS's dry.