We're going to make the game a bit more tolerable for melee DPS

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Originally Posted by Bebo

We have to deal with not doing as much DPS as other classes, and even then we need to use extremely long rotations just to compensate for the little Damage we deal.

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What's that all about? Since when does melee not do as much DPS as other classes? If played right and the fight is not totally biased towards ranged, melee will outshine ranged DPS. I parse most of my dungeons/raids (using ACT) and there has never been a single time where I did not come out on top of the DPS charts. On stationary fights numbers can go up to 400 DPS on a single target (e.g. Atomos in CT I was just a bit over 400 for > 1:30 min, so it was not just opening burst numbers dropped after Atomos was dead as we had to wait for the other groups to catch up) , I'd really love to see a ranged do that kind of DPS.

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Originally Posted by Bebo

I have to have someone use eye for an eye and Apocotastasis on me just to survive that wicked wheel BS on Garuda ex.

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Just wrong. As already laid out in this thread a multiple times, your group just has to go for a melee friendly strat and all of a sudden the fight could as well be done with 4 melee classes, without anyone having to put in any kind of extra effort (like putting up debuffs on the mobs or def buffs on the melees).

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Originally Posted by Bebo

Dragoon is my main and im really good at it, Let me shine in my group rather then just be there to limit.

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No, you're not good at it, otherwise you wouldn't claim melee DPS to be lower than ranged DPS. And you wouldn't have all of the issues you seem to be having.

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

No you don't get more dps out of a melee class. Summoners are still up there, followed by these crazy black mages and sometimes these shiny bards. Can put a monk between black mages and bards but you ll never outdps competent and adequatly geared ranged.

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That's complete BS, especially the bard part. Never seen a bard even come close to the range of number a melee DD can yield. Do you have any kind of numbers to show for? If needed I can dig up some numbers from ACT's history to show that a DRG can easily go past 300 DPS by a mile (often past 350 and sometimes up to 400), as long as the fight is not completely biased towards ranged DPS. If SMNs, BLMs and BRDs are all that much better, there should be loads of parses out there that show much higher numbers, so pls bring those parses. Just because you are not able to outdps ranged DPS, doesn't mean it's an issue with the class.

The only place where I see melees really having a hard time is in T2 non-enrage strat. But since most people are doing the enrage strat. even my grandmother will have no problem at all.

bottom line is this, when I do parse and pay attention, I rarely if ever get outparsed by a ranged dps no matter which parser I use.
this is especially true since 2.1.

however, even with that being true I still feel that melee is requiring much more effort and risk for that extra dps (let's say 20% on average) which is often not necessary.
I've seen turn5 PTs that run 3 brd 1 caster just to hit the hard enrage again and again. that's how much they don't trust an average unknown melee dps.
they are not completely without reasons either, I have to admit I also die stupid deaths just because of the mechanisms stacked against melee.

now if melee can pull of 30-50% more dps at max skill/gear level than a ranged then that will change the whole game. too good to be true but just saying.

You are expected to dodge WW just the same as the ranged are expected to dodge friction... Yes friction, that mechanic that makes them stop casting and dodge; as two hits will likely kill them. Memorize the rotations and keep your health up. Your healers are busy dodging friction and keeping the tanks up.

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Originally Posted by adahn

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I still think this could be done by increasing the mellee dps class's defense or HP stats, or just their overall surviveability by making monks more self-efficient and having dragoons take less damage during jumps. It would really help lower the skill cap too and have greater uptime in fights. Though, monk would still be a heavily player-skill based if they did that.

I don't know... I just met the most unconfident dragoon yesterday...

Friction? You mean the orange circle AOE that can target anyone and has a cast bar? Please. Wicked Wheel isn't even in the same ballpark.

There's been some great suggested strategies in this thread to accommodate melees and that's awesome. The problem is they all add new mechanics or new layers of complication to the fight that a lot of parties can't/struggle to/don't want to do.

Knowing the rotation is helpful for dodging Wicked Wheel but it also depends on the tank positioning Garuda perfectly, which doesn't always happen when they're trying to execute a spiny swap and a myriad of other things. On top of that, it means the melee has to kill the sister while trying to track Garuda's rotation at the same time. Sure it can be done, but the likelyhood of someone making a mistake shoots up immensely. A lot of parties don't want to deal with that quite frankly.

For the record, the strategy i've found that works best for me as a melee is to have the party kill Chirada first in the tornado phase and then hit all my defensive cooldowns/fists of earth and shoulder tackle over. I usually survive the WW with ~500 hp or so and we kill Suparna before another one fires off.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

Friction? You mean the orange circle AOE that can target anyone and has a cast bar? Please. Wicked Wheel isn't even in the same ballpark.

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^This.....

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

There's been some great suggested strategies in this thread to accommodate melees and that's awesome. The problem is they all add new mechanics or new layers of complication to the fight that a lot of parties can't/struggle to/don't want to do.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

For the record, the strategy i've found that works best for me as a melee is to have the party kill Chirada first in the tornado phase and then hit all my defensive cooldowns/fists of earth and shoulder tackle over. I usually survive the WW with ~500 hp or so and we kill Suparna before another one fires off.

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What about the method I suggested earlier in this thread? It completely avoids WWs on the melee DPS and doesn't really add any extra layer of mechanics or complication (unless you consider both tanks provoking a target more complicated than only one tank doing it).

Do you want the secret to dodging wicked wheel as a melee?

The problem with these types of threads, is that people exaggerate either way to try and make themselves seem more convincing. There's some people claiming that it's "impossible" while others will claim that it's "too easy" (or maybe they're just that amazing!).

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Either I missunderstood you, if thats the case I am sorry but it takes a really incompetent melee if he gets outdpsed by ranged in those or any fights this content has to offer so far if gear is not the issue.
I don't know much about Dragoons at last for Monk I'd have to play really terrible to not come out on top though.

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You just never met a good ranged. A summoner I play with very often do 400 dps no matter what without lb, I seriously doubt you re close to that on monk. I did say appropriatedly geared ranged too.

And you ll never reach that on dragoon too unless its a 1 min fight and you get lucky on crits + havin shit ton of det (understand by that, you got the full BiS + havin luck)

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That's complete BS, especially the bard part. Never seen a bard even come close to the range of number a melee DD can yield. Do you have any kind of numbers to show for? If needed I can dig up some numbers from ACT's history to show that a DRG can easily go past 300 DPS by a mile (often past 350 and sometimes up to 400), as long as the fight is not completely biased towards ranged DPS. If SMNs, BLMs and BRDs are all that much better, there should be loads of parses out there that show much higher numbers, so pls bring those parses. Just because you are not able to outdps ranged DPS, doesn't mean it's an issue with the class.

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I did see bards reach 360 - 370 dps man, don't hate. With 0 accuracy and full crit gear they are simply amazin on EX Primals, and we re talkin about 600+ crit here. Same for Summoners

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

You just never met a good ranged. A summoner I play with very often do 400 dps no matter what without lb, I seriously doubt you re close to that on monk. I did say appropriatedly geared ranged too.

And you ll never reach that on dragoon too unless its a 1 min fight and you get lucky on crits + havin shit ton of det (understand by that, you got the full BiS + havin luck)

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So what, you compare a 0 acc BIS equipped SMN (who obviously also gets lucky on crits and stuff to break that 400 DPS) to a non BIS equipped melee wearing acc gear?

As said, I did break 400 DPS on my DRG for more than 1 minute (pretty sure I could have hovered around the 400 DPS mark for even longer if the fight wouldn't have ended at that point) and I did this more than once. I'm not exactly BIS geared (as my FC is still working on Turn 5 and I'm also missing a couple of pieces from the earlier turns and EX primals) and I was doing it with my regular accuracy gear I wear for doing coil. And ACT doesn't include LB into anyone's personal DPS, so if I was to use LB, it would actually lower my DPS as I wouldn't be hitting the target at all during its cast time.

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

I did see bards reach 360 - 370 dps man, don't hate. With 0 accuracy and full crit gear they are simply amazin on EX Primals, and we re talkin about 600+ crit here. Same for Summoners

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So what exactly hinders a melee from going for 0 acc gear to significantly bolster their DPS numbers? (I currently don't have that gear but might be worth a shot to go for it outside of coil)

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Originally Posted by Mitski

The problem with these types of threads, is that people exaggerate either way to try and make themselves seem more convincing. There's some people claiming that it's "impossible" while others will claim that it's "too easy" (or maybe they're just that amazing!).

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This is literally every thread regarding melee dps in a nutshell. People frustrated w/ a mechanic come in for advice. People chime in with "Oh you're just awful. I've literally never been hit by anything ever and parse 5000 DPS."

Truth of the matter is dodging Wicked Wheel isn't just up to the melee. Much like anything in this game, it takes coordination. That said, if you cannot take the heat, get out of the kitchen because that is where you will always be on MNK and DRG.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

What about the method I suggested earlier in this thread? It completely avoids WWs on the melee DPS and doesn't really add any extra layer of mechanics or complication (unless you consider both tanks provoking a target more complicated than only one tank doing it).

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Most tanks can't handle that.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

Truth of the matter is dodging Wicked Wheel isn't just up to the melee. Much like anything in this game, it takes coordination. That said, if you cannot take the heat, get out of the kitchen because that is where you will always be on MNK and DRG.

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You mean the like the monks that always do 300+ dps on titan EX and never lose GL. They never explain how its possible to never lose GL but somehow they are able to do it and everyone else is just bad.

And again as you pointed out there are fights like garuda EX that melee require the rest of the group to be very good and do very specific things so they don't die... like a strat that is only required if a melee is in group. Or parking garuda in a certain area so they can dodge the wicked wheel.

My guess is these super melee that never die/get hit with anything are more just lucky with their tanks/heals being super good at not killing them.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

What about the method I suggested earlier in this thread? It completely avoids WWs on the melee DPS and doesn't really add any extra layer of mechanics or complication (unless you consider both tanks provoking a target more complicated than only one tank doing it).

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I had one group that did it the way you suggested and it works perfectly if executed correctly. I've had other groups try and do it and struggle to pull it off. Some of the OT's seemed to have trouble picking up both spiny and Chirada. I've never tanked endgame so I can't comment as to whether it should be difficult or not. Maybe the DPS was going too hard on Chirada and the tank was struggling to keep both stuck to him while moving into his corner, if I had to guess. It kinda goes back to adding a new mechanic like i mentioned before though. People choose the path of least resistance.

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I'm not exactly BIS geared (as my FC is still working on Turn 5 and I'm also missing a couple of pieces from the earlier turns and EX primals)

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With 450 crit and 299 det you break 400 dps ? Riiiight With a Mega Pot of STR I guess, but I'm not talkin about attack nodes in turn 2 with Selene + War debuff or the last boss in Amdapor, I'm talkin about sustained damage on raid bosses or Primals.

The big advantage summoners got is that they dont have to move whatsoever and always have dots runnin on everything that, in a competent group, are boosted most of the time by Requiem so I let you imagine with spell speed given by Selene, allowin them to do one more spell in the same time frame than what they usually do without.

The only thing, and i REALLY mean, the ONLY thing which is unfair for melee DPS (and BRD too but BRD have an easier time) is Blood for Blood. I should not have to pay such a high price to do more dps. 25% is a big increase in damage taken and I'm talking about things like T4 where u get the 360 cleave off knights and such, or when the rooks invariably target you cuz ur awesome. I wish DRG trait for it at least would reduce the damage taken increase to 10% or something. At least they threw us a bone and gave us keen flurry/featherfoot which should counterbalance it but even still.


AS FOR ALL YOU WHINERS have you not noticed that melee gets an increased defense/hp over your ranged counterparts? its very significant and that alone should satisfy you. There has never been an instance where i feel like I'm less valuable as a melee. It's just not true. If you feel like it is too hard, then here is news for you. YOU. ARE. NOT. GOOD. so stop, please. Don't try to whine your way into getting buffs or nerfs to content because the reality is we don't want this game to be too easy. It's already pretty simple. I wish it would be harder.

For Ifrit EX, it's up to you to know where that debuff is. Don't be retarded. And there's more than enough time to kill the nails so if you get tied to the tank, look for an available nail or just dps Ifrit a little bit. The chain itself is not that bad so u can probably safely stretch it halfway across the room if u want to.

Titan EX is like a gift-wrapped target dummy, his hit box is so large and u can do DPS while mobile.

Garuda EX is so easy I don't even wanna explain it. There's already several posts telling you how.

As for changes I'd like to see, I'd love to have a cleave, something that hits 2-3 targets (preferably just 2). I think this would be a welcome and desirable change.


TLDR: No whining, melee is fine. Plz give us a cleave, though

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Originally Posted by CitizenKing

Cue Garuda EX and wicked wheel.


Oh, you figured out that Friction and Downburst are followed by the attack that instantly kills you? Great, we're gonna switch that up in the next phase. Also hope you're lucky with the timing on these aoe's so you can actually get out of range. Wait, you wanted to DPS? Why on earth would you play a melee DPS if you wanted to DPS?


Seriously, this is completely unacceptable. They messed around with the numbers, but the problem between ranged and melee DPS is not their number output. Its the mechanics they're expected to deal with during fights.

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For real? The skill is really easy to dodge. Slipstream>Downburst>Friction>Wicked Wheel. Only time this is different is during tornados, soon as tornados spawn she will wicked wheel, then go back to the the rotation I mentioned before. It is not hard. Tired of melee complaining all the time. Harder bosses please.

I'm not sure why they don't just do what they did in xi...Voidwatch brought tons of complaints due to mass aoe's and they just made it so those aoe's did less damage to everyone but the primary target.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

For real? The skill is really easy to dodge. Slipstream>Downburst>Friction>Wicked Wheel. Only time this is different is during tornados, soon as tornados spawn she will wicked wheel, then go back to the the rotation I mentioned before. It is not hard. Tired of melee complaining all the time. Harder bosses please.

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Lol dude. You don't even know the rotation correctly and you're talking smack. First of all, it's Friction -> Downburst -> Wicked Wheel pre-tornado. Secondly, the rotation changes during the tornado phase. At the start, it comes after slipstream. Then later it will SOMETIMES follow downburst but sometimes not. It's far from predictable and if you think it is, you've somehow gotten lucky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHUvB0vvNVs
Watch after the 7:30 mark if you think I'm making this up.

it's tied to how much dps is being done. so its not luck, but rather consistency

Wicked wheel is very predictable - sorry to disapoint you.

And for the confused, it has nothing to do with friction.

It's obviously luck for the dude I quoted when he's saying it's based off a rotation when it's not. At least not in the tornado phase.

Listen, it's not the hardest fight in the game and it is doable for a melee. Mnk is my only 50 and I've beaten it a few times. However it's much easier for ranged DPS and there's no denying it. It's not even close in terms of difficulty. So everyone pretending the fight is a joke for melee is lying through their teeth or has been lucky enough to join well coordinated groups with skilled/experienced tanks. It's just one fight so I'm not getting all sour grapes about it or starting a SE HATES MELEES!!! brigade. But I certainly don't blame melees for being disgruntled as it can be a frustrating to get through with your average DF/PF group as a melee.

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Originally Posted by Simurgi

Wicked wheel is very predictable - sorry to disapoint you.

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Like what the hell is this? Do you think it's cool to be Mr. Mysterious about your top secret, game breaking knowledge of wicked wheel? People are participating in this community thread trying to help one another and you're playing Dr. Strange in the corner. If you think you know some mechanic that everyone else is missing, go ahead and share. Why play childish games about it?

you mad, bro?

Naw. Just an adult, go figure.

most adults try to learn fights on their own rather than get their hands held through it all.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

Naw. Just an adult, go figure.

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No amount of effort will get you anywhere with the local trolls. They know everything, do 300 dps at all times always, never lag, never fail, never get hit with anything. Truth is they are gods and the rest of us are morons... and those videos proving otherwise??? Faked.. just like the moon landing.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

No amount of effort will get you anywhere with the local trolls. They know everything, do 300 dps at all times always, never lag, never fail, never get hit with anything. Truth is they are gods and the rest of us are morons... and those videos proving otherwise??? Faked.. just like the moon landing.

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Touche and thanks for the reminder.

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Originally Posted by NeonC

??? Ifrit is stupid easy for all dps. Garuda is easy for melee too if you can dodge WW. Titan is the same for everyone.

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^ This. If your dieing to WW, your doing it wrong. WW comes about 3 after Friction on first adds, and about 3 seconds after Slipstream on 2nd+ set of adds. All you need to do is pay attention, and when you see those abilities, wait 1 GCD and move away from melee range until you see WW go off. Alternatively, since I see your a DRG, just pop Keen Flurry and eat it. Wow, easy stuff.

Yeah WW basically drops me to like 500 health if I neglect Keen Flurry. So, I prezz da button and eat a 3.5-4k hit, no biggie. Just make sure you don't get combo'd with a slipstream or cleave based on positioning if the tank is moving to the middle to provoke the spiny or something. Taking 2 hits will gib you.

Thorauku
Player

Thorauku's Avatar Join Date
Oct 2013
Posts
447
Character
Rufus Whisperwind
World
Masamune
Main Class
ARCHER Lv 50

And as for vodimer, Really what server do you play. Im sure i can out dps you without a problem, im sure i meant other ranged dps or did you forget blms and sumn sometimes a good bard will keep up with a good melee no matter what because they dont have to disengage you my friend are full of it, post a video of your 400dps so we can see that you are not full of bs, and if you tell me blms, and smn dont do a stupid amount of damage when combat is stationary stop posting.

Doesn't matter, I'm still not QQ-ing about small things like this, when infact it can be done easily and without a hassle. If you can't pull it off, then you're not good as what you're saying.

I'm done with this thread. Bunch of crybabies who can't get over with the easy mechanics of EX Primals.

Edit:
Why do you even "quote" my forum details? Are you implying that I'm an Archer? you might want to check my lodestone and see that I own a Dragoon. Not as geared as my BRD, but it's pretty decent enough to clear all EX Primals without a problem.

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Originally Posted by Thorauku

I'm done with this thread. Bunch of crybabies who can't get over with the easy mechanics of EX Primals.
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Says a bard...

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Says a bard...

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Plenty of Melee have said as well.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Says a bard...

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Didn't read my post? I own a Dragoon. Heck my Avatar is a Dragoon atm. LOL! Just because my profile states that I'm an Archer doesn't mean that I only play Archer. Genius.

Play bard to learn the fight with fewer deaths. Play melee or either of casters, depending on the mechanics, to maximize damage thereafter. Stick with Bard if there is constant movement (away from boss) and there are no other bards. Isn't that how it works?

Would honestly be nice to see some stationary shots from Bard and a bit more ranged-inclusive mechanics on boss fights though.

Edit: The patch didn't add "ease" to melee classes in any way, only compensation for dps loss, which then niches melee as masters of simple fights, and standard or sub-par elsewhere.