Blizzard II nerf for BLM too severe

I believe Blizzard was changed for 1 of 2 reasons. PvP, or FATE's. When I leveled my BLM (my first class I FATE grinded with) I saw so many people complaining about me and the other BLM being able to tag everything with such ease and no loss to MP (yet no-one complained about Arcanist and such spamming Flash. xD). Lowering the damage so much makes it almost useless to use on your own, as Freeze used to be. However, if 20 people in a FATE are spamming it? 50 Potency is much better than 100 in this instance.

I can't really think of a situation where Blizz II would have been overused in PvP. You have to get close to be able to use it, and being close to someone usually results in you not being able to do anything. Binding someone who's right next to you seems useless unless you predict them running away before you Swiftcast Flare.

Blizz II wasn't really a huge part of any rotation, either. People have claimed it was nerfed because it was part of some huge DPS Flare rotation, but removing this from that rotation would barely affect the DPS. I strongly believe it was meant to balance FATE's, since now all DoM classes have Blizz II while everyone has Flash. I'd rather 50% spammed Blizz II than 100% spammed Flash and nothing got done. Though, I honestly couldn't care. The only times I used Blizz II was against Tonberry on last boss of WP, but now I just use Flare or Freeze.

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Originally Posted by sakraycore

Freeze still sucks compared to old blizzard. 3s for 100 potency vs 2s for 100 potency. Like I said, nerfing blizzard by 50% makes freeze look better, and will make people use it but there's no point of making blizzard II completely useless.

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Freeze is 100/3=33.33~ potency per second.
New Blizzard 2 is 50/2.5=20 potency per second.
Old Blizzard 2 is 100/2.5=40 potency per second.

I wouldn't call less than 7 pps exactly a huge nerf, but anyway, Freeze is a lot better than Blizzard 2 for AoE now. The aiming is a moot point after the first cast if mobs are not moving, and if they are, you would also have to re-position yourself for B2.

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Originally Posted by sakraycore

No, it was almost the highest AoE DPS in a dungeon, if not the highest AoE DPS. Balanced by having to be in melee range in squishy armor.

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Blizzard 2 spam was the worst AoE DPS rotation you could do.

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Originally Posted by O-Deka-K

...nobody claimed that Blizzard 2 spam did more damage than Fire 2 spam.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Blizzard 2 spam was the worst AoE DPS rotation you could do.

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Reading this thread over again, I can see that OP never specified any rotation, which implied that they were talking about B2 spam. I took it as meaning that B2 was part of a very good, known AoE rotation (B2-B2-F3-Flare-Transpose).

I don't think anyone would claim that B2 spam was a good rotation. It was close to being the worst rotation.

Fire 2 can not be spammed, blizzard 2 can. You run out of MP super fast if you just spam Fire 2 and then you're gonna be OOM.

It's also been stated earlier that blizzard 2 is a part of the highest AoE rotation, and it can also be spammed by itself if needed, whereas fire 2 doesn't even have that option. Blizzard 2 can also hit mobs more spaced apart since you can be in the middle of them whereas you would miss all of them with fire 2.

Blizzard 2 also doesn't need a target; there is a reason it's used in FATEs and not fire 2. The same properties that make it so good at tagging is also what makes it so much more reliable than fire 2 in terms of actually hitting everything you want to hit.

All in all it's a heavy nerf, which is slightly mitigated by freeze which is just a worse skill all-around.

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Originally Posted by sakraycore

Fire 2 can not be spammed, blizzard 2 can. You run out of MP super fast if you just spam Fire 2 and then you're gonna be OOM.

It's also been stated earlier that blizzard 2 is a part of the highest AoE rotation, and it can also be spammed by itself if needed, whereas fire 2 doesn't even have that option. Blizzard 2 can also hit mobs more spaced apart since you can be in the middle of them whereas you would miss all of them with fire 2.

Blizzard 2 also doesn't need a target; there is a reason it's used in FATEs and not fire 2. The same properties that make it so good at tagging is also what makes it so much more reliable than fire 2 in terms of actually hitting everything you want to hit.

All in all it's a heavy nerf, which is slightly mitigated by freeze which is just a worse skill all-around.

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It sounds like you want to get into territory that would make the nerf even more justified.
That is, Blizzard II was a 100 potency attack every gcd that actually regenerated your resource.
MNK and BRD AoE is less than this, uses a mob for targeting like Fire II and kills their TP.

So BLM spamming their worst aoe rotation (in terms of potency, but not in convenience for stuff like fates) was above 2 other classes.
Spamming one ability should never give even decent damage. Thank you SE.


Additionally, with fate scaling you have time to do full rotations now. So you wouldn't have Blizzard II spammed post 2.1 even if this change didn't happen.
Not that fates matter much when balancing.

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Originally Posted by sakraycore

Fire 2 can not be spammed, blizzard 2 can. You run out of MP super fast if you just spam Fire 2 and then you're gonna be OOM.

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You are missing the point.

Yes, it uses up more MP because Fire2 is done in Astral Fire rather Umbral ice. Of course. But Fire2 does more damage, so using Fire2 over Blizzard2 will do more damage... unless for some silly reason the black mage refuses to change into umbral ice and just sits there doing nothing with no mp.

It's not a heavy nerf. Blizzard2 was never our best source of damage. It might have been part of some bugged rotation using flare. But it was flare that was doing all the damage. It wasn't blizzard 2.

And people use Blizzard2 in fates because doing lots of damage is rarely important. You are just trying to "tag" as many things as possible before it's over like you say. Which blizzard 2 can still be used for.

So your argument as to why this was such a heavy nerf is not convincing. At least not for me.

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Originally Posted by Dale

It's not a heavy nerf. Blizzard2 was never our best source of damage. It might have been part of some bugged rotation using flare. But it was flare that was doing all the damage. It wasn't blizzard 2.

And people use Blizzard2 in fates because doing lots of damage is rarely important. You are just trying to "tag" as many things as possible before it's over like you say. Which blizzard 2 can still be used for.

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Both points can't be stated enough.

Particularly for the former, the rotations that include Blizzard II were a means to an end. It was just nice that Blizzard II did some aoe damage getting to UI3 for the reduced Flare cast.
Those rotations was centered around Flare's damage.

People who say Blizzard 2 was not good in our AOE rotations have no clue what they're talking about.

There's no reason to use Blizzard II now that Flare bug has been fixed though..

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Originally Posted by Flaeb

People who say Blizzard 2 was not good in our AOE rotations have no clue what they're talking about.

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No one is even saying that.
This thread got pointlessly derailed into a discussion on Blizzard II spam.
People are only saying that Blizzard II was never the center point of any decent damage rotation.

The best rotation (pre 2.1) was
Fire III > Flare > Transpose > Blizzard II > Blizzard II
But that rotation would still be considered based on Flare rather than Blizzard II.

Freeze plays the same role as Blizzard II.
Unfortunately that rotation was still also based on the getting a second reduced cast time which they have fixed.
That's a completely different issue though.

I stopped using any ice spells in my aoe rotation since the patch. Not because of any nerfs or long cast times/manual aiming, but because there is no good reason to be in Umbral Ice 3 anymore without the double dipping mechanic. I wouldn't use blizzard 2 anymore even if it wasn't nerfed. I use fire 3 > fire 2 > flare > transpose > repeat. Flare is the goal in aoe rotations and if I can't double dip into it then I see no need to have full mana or waste time with ice spells to get into UI3. Those 3 spells take up the majority of the transpose cool down, which this rotation hinges upon.

So for me at least, the blizzard 2 nerf itself and the freeze buff are irrelevant to my aoe rotation. Fixing the double dip bug just gave me no reason to need them.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

The best rotation (pre 2.1) was
Fire III > Flare > Transpose > Blizzard II > Blizzard II

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Unfortunately that rotation was still also based on the getting a second reduced cast time which they have fixed.

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I remember someone calculating that that rotation was still just a tiny bit better than F2 spam -> Flare even if you didn't get the hasted Flare after F3. Like few per cent or so.

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Originally Posted by Memoriae

The only reason from what I have experienced with Blizzard II, is that it may have been nerfed because its spammed constantly in F.A.T.Es and made it difficult for other classes without a decent AoE skill to get any points for participation.

the patch basically was a nerf on ranged single target DPS, a AoE buff for magic jobs, and a Buff on Melee DPS.

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Where is this AoE buff you speak of? I as a BLM has seen none. Only nerfs.

I can't even see other classes making use of Blizzard 2 any more. It's like celebrating that you got the last sandwich after it's gone mouldy and the person who owned it no longer wanted it. The nerf was not only too heavy, but entirely pointless. Freeze still sucks, so it's never going to see any use from smart players, and the other mages simply don't benefit much from what has been reduced to a player-based bind skill.

White Mage already has Holy if they want a PBAoE attack and Summoner's benefitted more from Thunder in their DPS rotation than they would benefit from Blizzard 2 even in its original 100 potency form. Honestly, it just feels like someone had a temporary lapse of sanity when devising the Black Mage changes.

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Originally Posted by Kalvin1783

I use fire 3 > fire 2 > flare > transpose > repeat.

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Well, it looks like you found it. I was doing AoE testing this weekend and I'm pretty much throwing it out the window now. This rotation is heads above any other rotation I can think of. It's almost as good as the old B2-B2-F3-Flare-Transpose combo.

Here's how it works: After Transpose, you wait for a mana tick and start casting F3. Since this takes 3.5s, you'll get another mana tick before it finishes. This gives enough mana to cast F2 and Flare, which are both AoE and are both buffed from AF3. Transpose cooldown of 12s will be up soon after. This rotation is exactly 12s long.

Fire 3 > Fire 2 > Flare > Transpose
Here's the potency formula: (648 x N + 198) / 12 = 54N + 16.5 PPS
where N is the number of targets

Here are some to compare with:
B2-B2-F3-Flare-Transpose (old): (668 x N + 154) / 12 = 55.7N + 12.8 PPS
B2-B2-F3-Flare-Transpose (2.1): (568 x N + 154) / 15 = 37.9N + 10.3 PPS <- nerfed!
B2-B2-F3-F2x4-Flare-Transpose (2.1): (1288 x N + 154) / 27 = 47.7N + 5.7 PPS
Freeze-Freeze-F3-F2x4-Flare-Transpose (2.1): (1388 x N + 154) / 30 = 46.3N + 5.1 <- worse than B2-B2!

Rotation times were tested based on my spell speed of 471. Even if you could be faster by a mana tick for the last 2 rotations, they're still worse:
B2-B2-F3-F2x4-Flare-Transpose (2.1): (1288 x N + 154) / 24 = 53.7N + 6.4 PPS
Freeze-Freeze-F3-F2x4-Flare-Transpose (2.1): (1388 x N + 154) / 27 = 51.4N + 5.7

I've also tried several rotations that either don't use Flare or don't use Transpose, and they're all much worse. Conclusions for AoE:

• Hardcast Flare always increases DPS, even for 2 targets (contrary to popular belief).
• Adding more Fire 2 always increases DPS, even for 2 targets.

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Originally Posted by sakraycore

No, it was almost the highest AoE DPS in a dungeon, if not the highest AoE DPS. Balanced by having to be in melee range in squishy armor.

I agree it needed a slight nerf, but definately not a drastic 50% nerf which renders it completely useless.

Please do not comment on classes you don't know about and claim it's fine.

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except both blizzard 2 and fire 2 suck so them nerfing blizzard 2 didnt really make much of a difference.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Takes twice as long to spam stuff to death in FATEs now, boo hoo.

Blizzard 2 really has very little utility outside of FATEs so it's really not a big blow to BLMs.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I main DRG and my 2nd job is BLM.

Honestly, you should never be using Blizz2 anyway, once you have Fire2. Fire2 spam > Flare is best AOE BY A MILE, and it saves healers from having to heal your spongy ass coz you're in melee range. Those are 2 advantages next to the zero advantages of using Blizz2.

Even if you wanted to use Blizz2 to get more Umbral Ice for MP regen, it's still now a better idea to use Freeze, coz it'll keep you out of melee range, and now do decent damage. It's seriously a better solution for ranged AOE (what you should be doing) every way you look at it.

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You must not play BLM.

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Originally Posted by Hitokirinomad

Not to be mean, but it's very obvious to see who was playing sub-optimally before, and who paid no attention to Theorycrafting. Go look at the 800 'BLM AOE Rotation' threads, and you see that Blizz 2 nerf was a significant reduction to the *optimum* AE rotation. Not the one that used a lot of Fire 2, but the one that did the most damage, and coincidentally, put you closest to harm (F3 > Flare >Transpose >B2>B2>F3). I agree it was nerfed because it was given to all the mage classes...but it was given to all the mage classes for PvP, which is not a good trend (nerfing PvE skills for PvP balance).

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Finally, someone who plays BLM.