Please look at the legacy server costs and do some math and tell me how even 5% of players 'can manage' the largest land plots? I dunno if you've seen the cheaper housing in videos, but it's no better than a tool shed for size.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fira_Bug
Yoshi's argument was that you could make 15-20k per day 7 days per week and afford one as an FC after three months, but if you run the actual numbers (and subtract 40k per week for teleport/food/repair costs to make the math easier), 3 months would require having an FC with over 200 players all doing this 7 days a week. That's not a realistic expectation for most FC anyway, because most of the larger ones out there don't even have 200+ active players. And yes, I'm aware some people can make more than 100k/week, but not everyone enjoys crafting and gathering for profit.
It's understandable why people are upset about this, and this whole whining about people who are complaining thing is really getting old. Housing doesn't give anyone an unfair advantage in gameplay, so why make it impossible for anything other than the elite 1% of rich players out there? If space is an issue, they should have used a different system (a lot of games use an auction system) or something.
"Why does SE make content not obtainable by everyone?" Huh?!
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12-17-2013, 06:14 AMAethaeryn
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12-17-2013, 06:20 AMAethyriel
Well, from their standpoint a FC should consist of 300 + faceless members with whom you can't possibly interact personally all at the same time instead of being smaller groups of likeminded players. The math works out then and if this is the course the game is taking then I'm out, some other people probaly, too. Now I'm not whining about it, the designer chose to go a certain path, i don't like, I go play something else, nobody cares. That being said, I do doubt this model attracts a lot of people. Pay 200k Gil and have your guildmaster or a small group design an FC house that you have nothing to do with to be able to hang out with people who share the same guildtag as you and nothing else.
The repetitive nature of the game right now also has already turned a lot of people off and I don't see it changing any time soon. The playerbase here right now seems to be general FF fans, former FF 11 players and people who got sick of GW2/Rift/WoW and wanted to try something that looked really good and that reminded them of the vanilla mmo feeling. That passes though, quite quickly, most people will want to see comfort functions very soon, players these days still want to be challenged to accomplish things, but investing time is not considered a challenge - you are just investing time, every idiot can invest time, you're not special, you're not a better player, you don't know anything better, you just play more - that's not hardcore or anything, it's not entertaining and it will make them lose subs.
FF14 is not the first mmo to try this, but you can't bring out a vanilla WoW "clone" or make a game where farming tons of shit is the main content - look at any mmo that came out and triedto do the same thing or simply cater to more hardcore players, be it pve oriented or pvp oriented, they all failed. -
12-17-2013, 06:21 AMDeculturelol, what a joke. This is the most casual friendly MMO I've ever played - if they took inspiration from EQ and WoW in that department, then I must be in the twilight zone because this game is nothing like the vanilla WoW or EQ that I raided in.Quote:
Originally Posted by PapesseLudovique
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12-17-2013, 06:22 AMBizniztymeNot from what I'm reading with all these threads. :) Honestly, I find it funny and I'm enjoying all the crying and moaning. Keep it coming. Seems like it's the end of the world for so many people because of a VIDEO GAME. Too funny. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TrystWildkey
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12-17-2013, 07:01 AMRoris
Gathering gil is apparently more hardcore than killing Twintania or any hard boss now, I mean people are already farming Twintania but still. Sure you can scream "making money is easy" but once people start buying houses with that money, it's going to be flushed and gone. Markets were already crashing before, now everyone is rushing to sell and very few will be buying, you might be able to get something from new players but that won't last. Again, once that gil is gone it's going to take a while to regenerate even with the new ways to generate gil like dailies and even if a lot of new players and characters get to the point where buying gear is a thing with their storyline and quest earnings, because reaching endgame is fast and the game hands out a lot of free gear already, they will also be saving for a house now.
Meanwhile on the endgame side a lot of players already have a couple of full Darklight and even Myth and Allagan sets so they can even more easily spend the Philosophy on mats and craft the gear themselves if they need to fill in spots, and now that food lasts between deaths there's also no real reason to buy a bunch of stacks and most FCs already craft it themselves too, those were the two big gil investments. Of course that translates to more ways to save gil but also to even less people buying stuff because most will be still saving for their FC plot. But there's the upcoming furniture market you say? Well if an FC can afford a house with the gil they made from crafting then they can also craft the furniture themselves, which means no real market for furniture anyway and most people won't even buy their crafted furniture because they can't afford a house.
I really don't understand the selfishness and entitlement of hardcore fans who get defensive at any sign of disapproval. Some will say "if you don't like it leave" without realizing people do listen and leave, just look at the original XIV. Others will says "it's ok it'll get better with time" not realizing some people don't have the patience to wait especially if there's no sign of things getting better, or how much a game's image is damaged by not addressing the most important issues in time. Once again look at the original XIV, by the end it was in an almost a completely different state from the abysmal launch yet people didn't bother to re-review it or give it a chance because of the original backlash, it hurt it so much that a semi rebranding of 2.0 to "A Realm Reborn" was needed to set it apart from the original. Sure ARR has been getting a couple of awards, it got ok reviews and sold more than expected, but it also had a rocky launch that made some people weary once again because of the previous version's reputation and issues like the AoE lag and now this housing debacle are things that are really hurting its image. Finally others will say "good riddance to whoever left, the true fans will support it" and sure look at XI, it holds less than 100k subs and still manages to make a profit, but if you really love this company, wouldn't you like them to make even more profits? Profit from the people that could have stayed if the devs listened to their feedback. Sure some feedback requires more attention, log in errors should be addressed as fast as possible, while something like a typo like "The Howing Eye (Hard)" or leaving unstranslated japanese in Coil for months need less priority, but feedback is feedback never the less, as "negative" as a minority of people want to consider it.
I really don't understand this destructive defensive mentality of "everything is perfect please stop hating every critique is whine whine whine", I honestly don't. -
12-17-2013, 07:04 AMStarlordI suppose I should take that as a compliment :P. If I know something is coming, I can be patient and wait for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phe
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12-17-2013, 07:27 AMSunarieYou pretty much captured my thoughts on this exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roris
To be perfectly clear, I am totally fine with pieces of furniture, or upgrades themselves taking years and years to complete. I would be perfectly fine if leveling took longer, and BiS gear was reserved for people who actually raided. I am not perfectly fine with something that is casual content completely being locked behind a gigantic payment wall. My FC has over 20 people, so that puts us at the middle sized house at least. So we're starting at about 24 million.
Now, also take into account that you can't really "upgrade" your home. We don't want to spend 24 million minimum (because that is a crap ton of money to us) on something we're going to get no gil out of if it turns out we need a bigger plot of land or something to access some feature. Hell, the smallest house is doable in months given how many people we have actively working towards it (like..5-6 maybe, assuming they donate all their earned funds), but considering you don't get any of that gil back upon wanting to upgrade, what's the point?
What they really should have done, and what I hope they may still take into consideration, is make the entry level price low enough to be achievable by everyone. This particular game feature, should be within reach of everyone. This isn't a raid boss, this isn't BiS gear, this isn't relic or artifact sets, this is freaking housing, probably the most casual content there is (unless you play FFXIV apparently). The gil sink from there is upgrading and furniture. Hell, they could make a full upgraded house still cost what it does, but when you hide the cost over several much smaller goals. It drives people to continue because there are goals they can meet and visibly see a reward for.
Also, I have not once seen anyone claim they should get all the best stuff for housing (including the best land) for free, or with no work. What I have seen is many people who either don't spend their time earning gil because that isn't fun to them, who lack market skills needed to attain gil in game economies as they are now, or who just simply do not have a lot of time to play. I am a perfect example of two of those things complain that the prices are too damn high for entry level homes (and on legacy servers, all homes, understandably). I have all the crafts maxed and yet I never go over 200k in gil. Never have. I got up there once and 150k went into the FC fund to save up for housing (which really just ended up inflating the prices they were going to later announce, would have been nice if there had been a warning for that). I don't charge people for melds, I craft things completely free of charge for any FC members, and I tend to give stuff away, even when made with my own mats. I like helping people out, and now I feel as if I literally -have- to stop doing that and start charging for everything, or make the game a monotonous job of running dailies everyday when I already do that for dungeons, just so I can even gain access to a casual feature. -
12-17-2013, 07:42 AMHasseo
Though i think prices are absurd its not even my biggest issue. My issue is everytime something has been qeustioned there reasoning has been they wanted both hardcore and casual players to be able to enjoy the same content. However this is now suddenly not the case? if a casul player has to choice between every min farming for months to even hope to enjoy same thing as someone that on near 24/7 this nullifies the whole arguement. I believe on proggression side things should be harder, but a simple fc house should not put a player in that position.
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12-17-2013, 07:52 AMDarkRain
Its about Goals . You set a goal and try to reach that goal . Then challenge yourself to a higher goal . That is what SE is doing . You can get a large FC house . Join a larger FC and poof there is your house. You don't want to be in that large of a FC that is YOUR choice . Its like life really . Again set a goal , work really hard to reach that goal , set a new goal . But sadly in the world today people think they are entitled to things. And want things given to them with little to no effort .
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12-17-2013, 08:03 AMRorisSaid no one really, I'll gladly kill whatever hard bosses or beat as many dungeons or even gather and craft as many mats as needed to earn a house, anything but a gil sink and many do thankfully share that sentiment. Farming gil takes little to no effort either according to some people, so there you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkRain
I hate to pull the "it's just a videogame" card, but it is. Besides if you want to put it in real life terms, that's $40 something for the 3 months most people have to keep subbed to gather the money to afford a house and since you also mentioned goals are good to have, most goals involve a medium and even a large house. Sure you get the other bulk of the content but a significant part won't be accessible until you've paid enough of a subscription, if you even have the time to do what in any other MMO would be considered side content, instead of focusing on the big battle content, because you know just like real life some people have jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkRain
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12-17-2013, 08:08 AMHasseo
getting gear is a goal, leveling is a goal, farming 24/7 isnt a goal. Noone is expecting it to be handed to them. People have been saving for this since launch and some before and cant afford this crap. Does a small fc need a mansion no, but should be told that realisticly if want this you have randomly bring in people just because. The goal arguement has no bases. Enlarging a house over time getting better items for it those are reasonable goals. I am sick of people saying this is goal tho when half the crap in this game that should have to work for is handed to you. When some of us said that content was too easy with no goals we were told no that wouldnt be fair.
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12-17-2013, 08:09 AMAxidrainyeah i dont play mmo's to be a gil farmer. screw that. id rather pay real money than spend hours upon hours selling crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasseo
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12-17-2013, 08:11 AMTsohG
Its time for those "Leader" wannabe's to disband their fc since its like 8974189312 different fc's in game, they all want to "lead" for "fun" and now they cry... Go merge people, make new strong FC's who can afford buying a house, also dont get mad only cause you cant buy a large house 2 minutes after you login.. you want to do everything easy dont u ?
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12-17-2013, 08:13 AMSunarieCause the first thing I want to do is leave the people I trust, join a different FC and entrust them with all my gil for a vaniety feature I will probably have zero control over in that new FC (assuming the FC leader doesn't bail, and all other members donate as much as I have of course). That sounds amazing. Also, nice strawman argument. Please point me to where -anyone- at all has said they expect to buy the largest, or even a large house, within even a week (or hell, even a month or three) of the patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by TsohG
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12-17-2013, 08:18 AMRorisSure let me just drop my FC full of cool buddies I trust and have been playing together since last year and let's all join a bigger FC full of people we don't really know or wouldn't really trust with our gil just to maybe get to own a small house that no more than 60 people can fit in anyway, great idea. About the easy part, I'm glad people keep getting that out of their system and it's really just proof the game shouldn't have been that easy, what with all the gear it hands out and the Echo buff, they also keep ignoring people that keep saying they don't want easy things but that's cool too.Quote:
Originally Posted by TsohG
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12-17-2013, 08:20 AMHasseo
People arent complaining they cant get day one. They not complaining cause cant get a large house.... They complaining cause for alot of fc's its not realistic at anypoint in even the near future to get even the smallest. Why should we all have to be in some mega fc when most dont even have a close knit community which whole point of an fc. Some of these people have been playing together since before xiv was even announced. Saying they should just break is about as dumb an arguement that could be made.
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12-17-2013, 08:27 AMTsohGIm talking about random people doing random fc's and get members that someone else could get.. do you realise what im saying ? those fc's must disband since they do NOTHING, they are not even organised, its just a kid who did fc for fun inviting random people that wont even talk after a week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roris
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12-17-2013, 08:27 AMRyuko
Housing prices aside, I'm pretty sure the reason people are THIS upset is because SE spent months and months hyping the housing system, showing us all the awesome cool features, encouraging us to work together as a FC, etc...
And then they release the prices, and the majority of people realize they can't afford it. I won't pass judgment until I actually SEE who is buying these houses, but I'm pretty sure very few FCs will be able to get even the smallest house without one rich person contributing a LOT from his or her pocket. I understand SE wanting Free Companies to work together, but the numbers used are nearly unobtainable by the majority.
Another issue is the fact that there are a LOT of smaller FCs... not HUGE ones, not tiny ones... just a FC with perhaps 30-ish members who just won't ever be able to afford something like that without everyone going broke. People have been joking about only the FCs that were selling Titan runs being able to afford this, but unfortunately I think it's true. I recall one particularly controversial thread on FB where someone was showing off the money his guild made from Titan runs. It's a LOT. But how do Free Companies, as a whole, obtain money otherwise? There really aren't a lot of great outlets to earn that much money. I think my FC has 100,000 in it from when a tank bet me I couldn't pull hate off him. I succeeded, and dumped the 100,000 in the FC bank. I personally have 1mil and the person I know with the most gil is around 30mil, but that's from ALL of my friends across the server, and all this guy does is craft. He has barely touched endgame because of the time he's spent making money. -
12-17-2013, 08:30 AMSinisterJointThis reply right here, I'm pretty sick of seeing. The fact is, its FC HOUSING. It's not an end game raid, end game content, bis weapon, or some other form of progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkRain
It's PURE VANITY, not some glorious accomplishment or achievement, its not some hardcore goal, its a damn FC house. Any MMO out there that has Guild/FC housing or guildhall WOULD NEVER and DOESNT charge players this astronomical amount. and it is just that, an astronomical amount.
It's not about wanting it NOW NOW NOW, it's about being realistic..plain and simple. For those who keep coming on here with the suck it up mentality I say you need to get your head checked and priorities straight because anyone that calls this a "hardcore goal" or some other form of elitist bs can, well... piss off.
Face it, this was a stupid move on SE's part because the prices are pretty outrageous and silly to expect anyone to want to spend that kind of in game currency to attain the plot.
Not only that, its opening up a whole can of worms with RMT and there is no way around that. Whoever had the picture with the donkey and the ban hammer had it 110% right. SE is kinda pushing players to RMT with this move, which is stupid as all hell because they clearly didn't think it through.
I do love this game, and I am enjoying every minute I play. I raid endgame, I craft/gather and make good gil. I have 0 qualms with anything else they have been doing (well the RoD nerf was a wtf moment /shrug) aside from that, housing should not be this bad of a sink, it SHOULD be attainable by all.
The only thing I can see is FC's should have a minimum amount of people required to start one because the fc's running around with 3 people in it is kinda silly...lets be honest about that one. THis is probably why they made the prices so high, so all the midget FC's (with rosters under 10 people) don't blow up their servers because of all the instances needed to support them. -
12-17-2013, 08:30 AMBeeraga
Cool, lets go ahead say its ok for only certain people to get things in the game because they have more time on their hands either available to them, or they are willing to commit to doing so. Lets just make that an assumption the OP is suggesting, ignoring the parts where the majority of players who are not hardcore and do not have that much time to commit to grinding are "whiners".
All right, here is the problem. If that is the case, then everyone's subscription fee should be prorated based on the time they play. That way, you can still get all the grindy stuff you want and play all day if you like, and I can pay less and not feel like im paying for content I'll never get to enjoy.
Of course, the problem there is if I pay less in a prorated sub (or I don't pay at all as a casual consumer who gives up on a grind based game), that would mean of course, the OP would need to pay a higher cost to keep the game from folding. In fact, a much much higher cost. Like, thousands of dollars a month or more!
Casual gamers subsidize hardcore gamers content. Something as cosmetic and non-hardcore as player housing should not be so limited. -
12-17-2013, 08:33 AMindira
you also lose everything if you take a break from the game for whatever reason. im pretty sure its tied to the person who bought it.
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12-17-2013, 08:34 AMLady_Venus
No matter what it is... if there are new changes there will always be people complaining.
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12-17-2013, 08:36 AMSunarieTrue, however when you have so many people complaining about one particular feature, and those people are united across languages and worlds, it's usually a good sign something is actually wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady_Venus
Edited to add: As bad as the tons of housing threads are over here. The Japan forums are actually in much more of an uproar. Their twitch chat also exploded (not literally of course) when Yoshi gave further details in the live letter this morning, much more so than the English speaking Reinhart channel. -
12-17-2013, 09:42 AMNoshpan
While the initial cost does seem a bit high, there are some things to consider.
For one, the cost of FC housing isn't meant to be the burden of a single individual (though there's nothing stopping a single person from doing just that). The FC housing is meant for everyone in the FC who can chip to be able to do so. Even the smallest gil can help. So it is only understandable that FC housing prices may be a huge gil-sink, especially for the priciest piece of land and housing. Naturally larger and/or more active FCs will acquire the elite mansion sooner.
Another thing to consider is how will the housing serve your FC. Or, more accurately, what is the purpose of your FC. Is your FC going to be PvP-focused? End game raiding? Crafting? Just being social? Those are things to consider when not only choosing the land for your FC house, but the size of the house as well. Not every FC needs the biggest house and tract of land, even if it would be nice to have.
One more thing to consider is that FC housing isn't meant to be for a single individual (that's what personal housing will be for). It is meant to be for a group of people, united under the banner of your FC. Its burdens are not solely yours to bear but to be carried by all members of the FC. Everyone in the FC should, in the spirit of unity, contribute to the FC. It doesn't have to be a whole lot, even the humble donation of low-level crafting materials can help your FC-mates who are leveling their crafting, for example.
One last thing to consider is that we don't know how much personal housing will cost, as that feature was delayed for released. I suspect (hope, really) that it'll be less than that for FCs. FC housing needs to not be viewed as a home for a single character but as a home for multiple player characters. -
12-17-2013, 10:10 AMSanneContent is here to make people stay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fira_Bug
If it takes to long to unlock content, and the player get bored, before it unlocks the content, then the purpose of the content is gone.
Of course it is the question for how many people this would be true. But looking at the forum, I get the feeling a lot of people feel they won't stay on for months to get this content unlocked. While the content itself does have their interest.
It is all about effort you want to put in a game, and some are willing to put more effort into it then others.
But I think it will be adjusted before I get bored of the other content, I still have some goals for myself, which will probably take me a few months to get, and I will see how things are by that time.