So.. who's leveling a SCH?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

snip

---

Exactly. Plus remember that bards have to gimp their DPS to carry WHMs, while they can save ballad longer with SCH since they can micromanage their own MP for quite some time. This, in turn, increases party efficiency by maximizing DPS.

Really, I'm fine with the WHM nerfs. Do I think some of them were unneeded? Yes, but I can adjust.

All I ask for is a little better MP management.
-Scale SoS bases on mind
Or
-decrease SoS cool down

If SE really doesn't want to touch SoS, then please give WHM Blissful Mind back from 1.0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velox

Exactly. Plus remember that bards have to gimp their DPS to carry WHMs, while they can save ballad longer with SCH since they can micromanage their own MP for quite some time. This, in turn, increases party efficiency by maximizing DPS.

Really, I'm fine with the WHM nerfs. Do I think some of them were unneeded? Yes, but I can adjust.

All I ask for is a little better MP management.
-Scale SoS bases on mind
Or
-decrease SoS cool down

If SE really doesn't want to touch SoS, then please give WHM Blissful Mind back from 1.0

---

Bard can also Foe Requiem if they don't need to use ballad. Increasing all damage from discipline of magic classes by 10% or 20% at no penalty to the bard.

Although a whm can't really spam their spells/raise like scholar can afford too. As your gear gets better you have much less mana problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Anyone who is actually good at the game would tell you that WHM would trade medica 2 for sch's succor in a heart beat.
They will be using it more then whm will be using the nerfed medica 2 , thats for sure.

All these baby scholars downplaying lustrate is hilarious.

---

People who downplay lustrate obviously don't use embrace physik and lustrate at once....This is whay annoys me. Benediction is a subpar heal when you factor in the 5 min cd in comparison of being able to do that 3 times every minute indefinitely. I get to use my oh crap what? once on fights that go around 9 mins, sometimes earlier if i hit it early but then, im out of ammo for 5 minutes. Hamsteak is obviously talking out of his arse and has no idea how having a half a minute regen will effect our healing output...why? because of a 2 yalm increase on an ability that never hits anyone? you may as well just medica twice now instead

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Anyone who is actually good at the game would tell you that WHM would trade medica 2 for sch's succor in a heart beat.

---

Succor's true viability only complements medica II not replace it.
It's Adloquium effect doesn't stack, it doesn't overwrite and it doesn't have the double crit bonus of it's single target counterpart. Our role in AOE healing remains the same and stacking SCH + SCH for raid groups isn't any more lucrative in 2.1 than it is now.

SCH aren't downplaying the changes, you WHMs are over-reacting.
We know the reality of the situation: nothing changes. Raids groups are still going to demand SCH + WHM, SCH will remain main tank healer, and WHM will still be the go to AOE healer.
Your role in a group hasn't changed. The demand for your class won't change. It will be business as usual come Tues.

But if you want to re-roll SCH because your class is no longer flavor of the month, then w/e.

And this is coming from a SCH who has single healed Titan, have done WP in under 20 mins and downed turn5.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hamsteak

i know it will be 50 potency, my point is that even with the "nerf" it will still outheal eos' whispering dawn on an equally geared scholar not only because of the up front heal but because it ticks longer

at any rate none of the changes to white mage or scholar will be particularly noticeable (except for the fairy fix), whereas the virus and RoD changes will be

---

Whispering dawn will tick for 21 secs, even if you say it is less potent how does it not out heal medica 2 after factoring in rouse which adds 40%. Tested it today and rouse/whispering dawn ticks for more than my divine seal/medica 2 ticks for. Even with the initial heal the fairy aoe is very strong, free and succor should be considered, since more than likely the sch will succor at the same time they pop the aoe heal for maximum effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eriane

Whispering dawn will tick for 21 secs, even if you say it is less potent how does it not out heal medica 2 after factoring in rouse which adds 40%. Tested it today and rouse/whispering dawn ticks for more than my divine seal/medica 2 ticks for. Even with the initial heal the fairy aoe is very strong, free and succor should be considered, since more than likely the sch will succor at the same time they pop the aoe heal for maximum effect.

---

pretty much this, and the lustrate buff is pretty large...even if you dont think its large an extra 2-300 hp from lustrate on a war per se is pretty big

A SCH shouldn't be using Lustrate without a reason. It's always better to Soil and energy drain with it. In most "ohshit" cases where you want to use Lustrate you should only use it once, and honestly if things get that bad you're probably going to wipe anyway.

Lustrate isn't free 60/75% healing every minute, it's "oh crap Caduceus got a crit, time to soil, lustrate, swift adlo and physick and hope he doesn't crit again"

Also for more end game raid content you should be getting proficient at using Selene. Even if you aren't silencing her haste-like abilities are a far bigger help to dps than Eos's aggro grabbing regen.

why almost all SCH so fixated about Lustrate buffed is the cause WHM grieving when it's not?
SCH buffs did NOTHING for this to happen, it's all about the nerfs

and, no, throwing out MORE spells to compensate the loss of MedII's regen effect is not a solution
I thinks that example itself is explain the state of 2.1 MedicaII

There are few scenarios where Soil out does Lustrate. On a Warrior after 2.1, Lustrate is going to be an insta-2k heal. Soil will need to modify 20k damage to equal that in terms of pure mitigation. Lustrate is a part of SCH healing, and needs to be managed appropriately. If you are 1. using Aetherflow stacks for Energy Drain, and 2. only using Lustrate as an "oh crap" button, then you are being horribly inefficient with your healing.

Not saying you can't do it that way, since I'm sure I'm about to hear the retort about what content you've healed, but it's far from ideal. Your Caduceus example, also, is a horrible example of how to heal on a SCH. Skip the soil, double Lustrate (around an Adlo if you are that concerned). Cad won't be throwing down enough damage in the next 15 seconds for Soil to outweigh the Lustrate heal.

Medica 2 before - Aggro ripper, mostly overhealed and wasted healing
Medica 2 now - Far less Aggro generated, same healing, less chances of overhealing and wasted healing since it lasts longer with lets ticks per go.

You didn't lose any regen effect, it just trickles in slower and they made Cure 3 less crap so you can actually use it. It's more efficient than two medicas even without the procs. SCH cannot AoE heal the way you do and you changing to SCH won't make you a better healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bije

Cad won't be throwing down enough damage in the next 15 seconds for Soil to outweigh the Lustrate heal.

---

That really depends on his stacks, as a Soil when the tank is out of CDs can mean another 10 seconds of the tank not dying. Cad is also a good example of spike damage., after you blow your aether you can't lustrate again until aetherflow is off CD. WHM can do heavier heals with cure II when needed and have less need of something like lustrate, which is why benediction is on a 5m CD.

It's good to keep soil up frequently, but you don't want it on CD when the spike damage is coming either

Eh. I solo healed him without using Soil once, but using Lustrate religiously. Soil is nice when your tank has full, or near to, health. It's not a good use when your tank has < 2k health, unless you are playing the 1% game with your other healer (but then you can throw "proper" out the window, anyways). Using it proactively for the burst/spike is understandable, even if I don't necessarily agree with a specific application. Using it during the "oh crap" moments is, in my mind, not the way to use it.


Edit: I agree with your assessment of Medica II, as does my healing partner (WHM).

im only worried that whm will become like war, where no one will want you anymore, cause then thats a concern for me since this is my only 50, and i enjoy playing healer, but sch is just not my thing, so i cant ever see myself leveling a sch. I just hope that doesnt happen, and if it does i would have to stop playing till 2.2.

WHM is still the better AoE healer. MedII didn't really get nerfed it has potency halved and duration of regen doubled if anything it gives you more time to do other stuff and also gets enmity more slowly with the lower potency. WHM will not be obsolete.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maku

WHM is still the better AoE healer. MedII didn't really get nerfed it has potency halved and duration of regen doubled if anything it gives you more time to do other stuff and also gets enmity more slowly with the lower potency. WHM will not be obsolete.

---

or more time to throw MORE Medica so the members won't died because regenration too little to covered their HP before they hit by something else in those frametime

come to thinks about it, that grants WHM more enmity from extra Medica they throw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maku

WHM is still the better AoE healer. MedII didn't really get nerfed it has potency halved and duration of regen doubled if anything it gives you more time to do other stuff and also gets enmity more slowly with the lower potency. WHM will not be obsolete.

---

I'm going to fight this claim in this thread too. You get enmity more slowly because you HEAL more slowly. It's like solving BLM hate issues by halving Flare damage.

As for myself, of course I'm leveling my scholar.

To 34. For Eye for an Eye.

I hate pet classes.

Oh look. Bad analogy used here as well.

Watch out for that sky, it's falling quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bije

Oh look. Bad analogy used here as well.

Watch out for that sky, it's falling quickly.

---

Fine. By halving Bio damage and doubling duration. By the Twelve, the point stands.

And I'm not claiming it's a terrible nerf that'll ruin the game for WHM. But it IS a nerf, and to claim it'll help with lowering enmity is simply another way of saying you can't heal as much.

Jump to other class because it's slightly better on the next patch? Typical terrible player who is not confident of their own skills.

I think we should get to the basic here:
WHM is more straightforward.
SCH is more micro-managing.

Pick your play style.

I own both class, and will still love them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ldlv

Jump to other class because it's slightly better on the next patch? Typical terrible player who is not confident of their own skills.

---

My though exactly.
If you liked WHM just for the 2 spells that got changed then maybe you were not supposed to be a WHm in the first place
At the moment, it's all theories. Just play post-patch to see if it unplayable or not.
I am sure it will help the WHM MP/aggro problem and could make you be more efficient at your job in the end

so let's wait before starting to cry

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Menae

Fine. By halving Bio damage and doubling duration. By the Twelve, the point stands.

---

Gives me more boosted RS Bio time, I'm game.

People keep forgetting that a whm can cast the old 15 second medica2 twice in that duration of the nerfed 30 second medica 2. Also you cannot get huge healing ticks if you use divine seal with it too.

Its like halving regen potency but making it 42 seconds. A clear nerf for harder fights with more spike damage.

You should never be using Medica II that often.

I don't see the problem of holy's damage being nerfed. I've always seen that skill as WHM version of negating damage. (After all I'm pretty sure stunning a mob for 2 seconds with a 500+ mana costing skill is much cheaper than wasting over a thousands on heals due to the damage occurred in those two seconds)

It seems a few small changes are enough to make people abandon their class. SCH WHM is still the optimal healing setup, so you're still just as valuable as a WHM.

Have some faith in your class. Even if they have become the underdog; which I don't think they have, prove you're a good healer by still performing in spite of the changes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

Succor's true viability only complements medica II not replace it.
It's Adloquium effect doesn't stack, it doesn't overwrite and it doesn't have the double crit bonus of it's single target counterpart.

---

It's Adloq effect has the double crit bonus just like Adloq itself. Tested it on Ifrit HM some time ago, those who got critted by Succor won't get knocked back (-> indicates that the complete damage is absorbed).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashira

It seems a few small changes are enough to make people abandon their class. SCH WHM is still the optimal healing setup, so you're still just as valuable as a WHM.

Have some faith in your class. Even if they have become the underdog; which I don't think they have, prove you're a good healer by still performing in spite of the changes.

---

I don't think the changes will make people switch classes (if it does then they should have played that other class from the start). I think most are just discussing the changes.

I already had both a relic SCH and WHM to play with. Even with the "nerfs" to WHM and the "buffs" to Scholar, I prefer the WHM play-style better. I don't see the changes as really being the be all end all.

I do wish they normalized mana usage between the two classes, with healing realistically being on par between them it confuses me why there is such a large discrepancy in mana still.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashira

Even if they have become the underdog; which I don't think they have, prove you're a good healer by still performing in spite of the changes.

---

I think what's bothering most people is that, in this day and age, parties are all about "efficiency" and will happily drop the underdog to shave off 10 seconds from whatever mindless task the game requires them to do.

Many players feel that if these changes make the class harder to play (and thus, makes content harder), it will be pointless to carry them when they are just another gimp to the party. Not saying I agree with this, I'm just saying that MMO communities are slipping more and more into a cesspool of social ineptness. This affects even decent players because it makes it harder to complete party-required content. Just look at how many monks are requested for WP speedruns. It's not fair, but the reality of the current MMO world is that, if it's not "efficient," it's not worth doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exphryl

I do wish they normalized mana usage between the two classes, with healing realistically being on par between them it confuses me why there is such a large discrepancy in mana still.

---

I agree 100%
Although I am not happy about some of the changes made to WHM, I am more than willing to learn to adapt. What bugs me is that SE didn't touch Shroud of Saints at all. In another thread I made 3 suggestions that wouldn't be too over-the-top if just one of them was implemented.
1. Scale SoS MP regen based on Level/Mind/etc
2. Decrease cooldown of SoS
3. Bring back some of the old MP-management abilities (converting HP to MP, converting damage to MP, etc)

Parties are still going to need WHM's AoE healing.

If you complain and compare medica 2 to Eos's regen now hers is still on a 1 minute CD. The only spammable AoE scholar has is succor, which is laughable for the actual healing. It's equal to a medica in mitigated damage but you still have M2 and C3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velox

I think what's bothering most people is that, in this day and age, parties are all about "efficiency" and will happily drop the underdog to shave off 10 seconds from whatever mindless task the game requires them to do.

---

I don't disagree with your point; I agree that people will pretty much always take the most efficient group, for progression anyway. What I will say though is that SCH and WHM as a pair are still the most efficient combination. Two SCH cannot provide enhanced Stoneskin or Protect, and WHM are still the kings and queens of AoE healing.

To me the changes to WHM aren't catastrophic or even altogether that bad. HOWEVER, prior to the patch I would have said WHM and SCH are equal and on par with each other. SCH have utility and ability to DPS a bit more but pay for it in heal size, however shielding makes up for it. WHM don't have loads in the utility department but are frankly the howitzers of heals.

With 2.1 I think the scales did tip, not perhaps by a lot, but they did. As a player who looks at things through a lens of efficiency, the SCH is the winner here. Have to work too hard to make cure III work at all, the change to medica II was absolutely unneeded. It (in theorycraft) alters the play of the WHM enough to throw the scales. SCH maintain their place..actually I guess they get a bit of a buff, where WHM get downgraded a smidge.

I've been avoiding my SCH because I've never been a fan of pet classes and the AI in this game is bad. With the fixes and the fact that as a SCH I can heal as well as a WHM can as well as DPS and have a little flying heal bot that isn't prone to stupid anymore..yeah I'll be doing that.

lol so much sch bandwagon,
time to level my whm and teach you sch wannabe how to play :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashira

It seems a few small changes are enough to make people abandon their class. SCH WHM is still the optimal healing setup, so you're still just as valuable as a WHM.

Have some faith in your class. Even if they have become the underdog; which I don't think they have, prove you're a good healer by still performing in spite of the changes.

---

This isn't wow. I'm not talking rerolling a new toon, i was already high enough for Eye for eye. As soon as i hit 50 i'll get my relic, +1 it and sit pretty in the 7 ilvl 90 coil and myth pieces that carry over and i still have my darklight to fill the rest. (Not to mention the coil helm changes make it bis for sch anyway.)

Of course i'll still do fine on my whm. But with the changes i feel i can do better as a sch. Sch was powerful from the getgo, and with fairy changes there is nothing to hold people back.

Honestly many healers in coil have both, the fairy was just such a pain i didn't want to deal with it.

Just to address one thing. Its not that whm aoe healing mechanics are broken, its that game mechanics favor sch. Right now there are only a few select times where aoe burst healing (cure 3) is needed, thats why medica 2 was so useful and the fairy aoe remains useful, the healing was over time and you could hit the entire raid and didn't have to ask the raid to stack. Buffed or not if cure 3 is not needed then.... what? Even enrage in coil is easily handled with medica and allows for the whm to heal the ENTIRE raid including the tank.

And honestly, even if they do put out instances where cure 3 is suddenly needed.... its lower than ilvl 90 content anyway. I'll probably only run crystal tower on my blm alt when i'm bored.

I'm wholeheartly with Gurpmeister here

anyway, to whoever thinks WHM is still a must because of AoE heals even if gimped, just because SCH only has Whispering Dawn at disposal and its 60s cd
dual Sch can covered that with 2 WD, there will be only 18second a minute that your party don't have AoE heal
also, if both SCH actually do communicate and timely executed, there will only be 9s per 30s downtime which Succor can covered that more than enough

again, the only real need for WHM is where AoE spike fast and you need to huddle together to eat CureIII

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bellybell

snip

---

You could compare that to a WHM + SCH, which allows the SCH to use Selene instead of Eos in some instances. Wouldn't the latter be more useful?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SasaraiKorai

You could compare that to a WHM + SCH, which allows the SCH to use Selene instead of Eos in some instances. Wouldn't the latter be more useful?

---

maybe. maybe not
me and my SCH partner came to an agreement that Selene is next to useless comparing to Eos

here is a quote from what we discussing long ago

Quote:

---

Here are the maths I made for Selene if anyone is interested

With my gear I have 424 Spell speed, which give me a base GCD of 2.42, with Selene it goes down to 2.30.
That's a 5% speed increase;
With 2.42 GCD over 30seconds I would have been able to use 12.39 spells
With 2.3 GCD over 30 seconds I am able to use 13.04
That is not even a full extra spell so take it as you want but I'd rather have the heal potency increase from Eos (Physicks go from 890 to 1090)

Also I am not wasting a swiftcast + 500 MP just to min/max a proc that will give barely 1 more attack

---

Depending on how badly they nerf the limit breaks, I might have to switch to SCH. For a little bit at least. :( Our other healer has only WHM at 50 and just got relic. But he's mentioned wanting to level SCH, after PLD..

Maybe the better pet AI will make being on SCH less miserable. No offense to proud SCH, but it isn't really my play style.

So many bad players who need to play the perceived OP class to enjoy themselves? I really do pity you.

I've been a SCH since the start and I'll still want to group with a good WHM in an 8 man over another SCH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Terius

So many bad players who need to play the perceived OP class to enjoy themselves? I really do pity you.

I've been a SCH since the start and I'll still want to group with a good WHM in an 8 man over another SCH.

---

<3 Teri <3

Also to make it clear, despite my complains about the changes and that I feel the balance is being shifted, I also agree that WHM/SCH is still the best team for any content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Terius

So many bad players who need to play the perceived OP class to enjoy themselves? I really do pity you.

I've been a SCH since the start and I'll still want to group with a good WHM in an 8 man over another SCH.

---

I really wasn't going to touch this... but i can't help myself. Perceived OP class? Who said anything about OP. Honestly, sch were always better at single target healing, always better in t5, and perfectly fine with regards to raid healing.

Is so hard to understand that the whm changes might make the class less fun? Sch was always the more efficent healer, but it was broken. With pet fixes, its fine.

SE is trying to force whm to use cure 3. If medica 2 were op (which if you do the math, rouse succor plus fairy aoe is better by far), they could have just added a cooldown.

SE has created a problem. They are trying to force the use of a burst healing spell in a game where mechanics don't require it. So one of two things will happen.

1: Mechanics will stay mostly the same and Cure 3 will still be pointless,

2. Mechanics will require BURST aoe healing and suddenly sch's will be suffering.