What the changes to War, Drg and Mnk really mean...

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I can't say much on MNK since I have barely played it, but DRG is definitely one of the harder jobs to manage that does have one of the bigger learning curves.

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Dragoons aren't hard to play, but there are a lot of moves you have to try to manage.

(Flank) Heavy Thrust - Internal Release - Phlebotomize - Blood for Blood - (back) Impulse Drive - Disembowel - Leg Sweep (when stunning is ok) - Chaos Thrust - True Thrust - Power Surge - Vorpal Thrust - Jump - Life Surge - Full Thrust - Dragonfire Dive/Spinshatter Dive (again when stunning is ok) - Rinse/repeat... all while avoiding AOEs and such.

That's normally my opener. I always try to use an instant ability in between GCDs when possible, but the main trick is to keep all of your dots and buffs/debuffs up at all times.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

Says the DRG.

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Not to give you shit but such comments are usually made by people who dont know what they are talking about.
The majority of people who dabbled into multiple classes at endgame and opimal rotations agree that DRG is one of the harder classes in the game to play to its fullest.

I personally play WAR/MNK/DRG/SMN and SCH and can tell you that DRG isnt easy in comparison to other classes.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

Says the DRG.

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Was there someone else you were expecting to say it? This is based off my experience with all battle related jobs which I have gotten relics/DL all for except MNK/SCH/WHM.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Dragoons aren't hard to play, but there are a lot of moves you have to try to manage.

(Flank) Heavy Thrust - Internal Release - Phlebotomize - Blood for Blood - (back) Impulse Drive - Disembowel - Leg Sweep (when stunning is ok) - Chaos Thrust - True Thrust - Power Surge - Vorpal Thrust - Jump - Life Surge - Full Thrust - Dragonfire Dive/Spinshatter Dive (again when stunning is ok) - Rinse/repeat... all while avoiding AOEs and such.

That's normally my opener. I always try to use an instant ability in between GCDs when possible, but the main trick is to keep all of your dots and buffs/debuffs up at all times.

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My setup/rotation is similar to this. It isn't saying that the job in general is hard, but I am simply comparing learning curves to other jobs I experienced. Funny enough, DRG/WAR/MNK I would say were the ones that took me the longest to figure out of the jobs which is what this thread is complaining towards. But hey that is just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

My setup/rotation is similar to this. It isn't saying that the job in general is hard, but I am simply comparing learning curves to other jobs I experienced. Funny enough, DRG/WAR/MNK I would say were the ones that took me the longest to figure out of the jobs which is what this thread is complaining towards. But hey that is just my 2 cents.

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Honestly, I think all of the combo juggling that needs to be done is what makes a lot of people that play them poorly. I've seen Dragoons appear to go into panic mode on Primals and just use the FT combo over and over without adding in anything else at all. Warriors are kind of the same. We have to juggle Butcher's Block for threat, Storm's Eye for DPS and soon, Storm's Path for the debuff and self heal. But honestly, this is what makes these classes fun for me. Unfortunately, this also seems to be why new players have issues.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

I experience bad players across all jobs regardless of how easy or hard ppl think they are. This game is pretty straightforward and has a very simple learning curve compared to other games. Even with that, you have players that still don't execute rotations or skills properly and/or adjust accordingly to the content they are playing.

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Notice how my own quote doesn't discredit any job regardless of its design. What is the point behind crap talking other jobs when its the players that control them.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

Says the DRG.

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I haven't leveled BRD yet (its next) but based on what many people I know say (and me leveling it to 15 in no time at all)...its lol-easy. Some of them hated leveling it for Quelling, it was so boring compared to their main classes. Which is causing me to dread leveling it.

I'm sure you've heard of that ideal 27-action rotation for DRG, correct? While I use a somewhat simplified version that works really well, its still not easy to pull off, especially on fights with a lot of boss movement. One missed positional, a bad AoE...combo ruined. Something no BRD has to worry about ever...

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Honestly, I think all of the combo juggling that needs to be done is what makes a lot of people that play them poorly. I've seen Dragoons appear to go into panic mode on Primals and just use the FT combo over and over without adding in anything else at all. Warriors are kind of the same. We have to juggle Butcher's Block for threat, Storm's Eye for DPS and soon, Storm's Path for the debuff and self heal. But honestly, this is what makes these classes fun for me. Unfortunately, this also seems to be why new players have issues.

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I'm honestly wondering how I'm going to juggle Storm's Path and Storm's Eye, especially with them both combo-ing off enmity-less Maim (if they changed one to combo off Skull Sunder it would make much more sense IMO). I can see a lot of trial and error going on the days after the patch.

And I agree, all the complexity makes DRG and WAR just so much more fun. Can't just sit there spamming 1-2-3 and practically go afk while still doing well lol

If you DF exclusively 90% of the players you see will be garbage anyway

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Originally Posted by WiseWolfHolo

This is highly debateable, just last week played drg for the first time since 1.0 and went omg this class is easy how does any1 fail hard at it. Honestly bard would make top 3 easiest to play, with paladin being #1 easiest, why because it is stupid simple, 1 real enmity combo and all you really do is hit cooldowns when you see xyz skill coming or you when bosses start to get a stack count above 4. Also making the top 3 easiest to play would be blm, not sure how any1 can mess up this "rushed" class but I have seen it.

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So you played a low level Dragoon, more likely Lancer, and that's how you based the difficulty of the class/job?

Fail.

Also, BRD is the simplest class to play, there's no arguing that.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

Says the DRG.

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LOL, it's pretty widely accepted that DRG at end game is one of, if not the most difficult, jobs to play at an optimum level.

/headshake

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Originally Posted by AzumaKun

LOL, it's pretty widely accepted that DRG at end game is one of, if not the most difficult, jobs to play at an optimum level.

/headshake

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2 positional attacks is hard to play?

I have both jobs to 50 and I can attest to the fact that DRGs need a little more attention to play rather than BRDs. No, I'm not saying Bards don't need attention to play, I'm just saying that there are a lot more things DRGs worry about than BRDs.
Dragoons have positioning issues that affect their overall DPS. Miss one and you ruin a rotation. Everybody worries about AoE, DRGs and BRDs alike. The difference? BRDs are affected minimally since you can pewpew while moving and not worry about whether you hit from the flank, behind or front. DRGs on the other hand, need to reposition, whether flank or behind. We are a lite bit dependent on the tank's positioning as well because if they keep moving around, we have to keep up and make sure we get our positional skills at the right time and position. In addition, most of the time we have to stop our DPS in order to avoid AoEs while BRDs can keep on firing arrows. Which I'm not complaining about at all since BRDs should be able to do that.

Also, DRGs worry about more AoEs than BRDs in certain fights.
Caduceus we need to not get hit by Hood Swing and Tail swipe thingy. BRDs normally dont need to worry about this.
ADS we need to worry about Repelling Canons, Ballast and a frontal AoE.
Once again, im not saying that BRDs have nothing to worry about since you need to avoid AoEs like Caduceus's Spit, High voltage and laser thingy, I'm just saying that we all have AoEs to avoid but at the same time DRGs amd MNKs have to worry about repositioning to achieve accurate DPS and combos while BRDs dont.

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Originally Posted by Orlandeu

Snip.

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This. SO MUCH THIS.

Especially the tanks. There are some tanks that just constantly move around everywhere during battle, and every time that happens I pretty much want to sit in a corner of said dungeon and probably rock myself.

It really does blow my mind when people get to 50 and don't know their rotation, but then again there's basically no need to know ANYTHING when you're just FATE grinding to level up. I get it, it's more casual friendly; and I do love being able to get a job to 50 in a week in my spare time, if I want.

We need to just be patient, and either try to explain to people their rotation (explain, not yell at), or point them towards one of the threads on here. I know there's an amazing thread on how to play DRG, not sure about MNK. Also, even knowing rotations, it does take some time to get them down. I understand single target and AOE rotations for BLM, but I was just plain not good at smoothly going from one to another when I first got to 50 as BLM (my main is DRG). Some dude in my party told me," MOAR DPS," and I'm like dude I know, any pointers? And I never got any real feedback.

If you continue to play in PUGs, we have to educate them, they're not going away.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

There will be a bunch of war, drg and mnks that are even worse than they currently are. The majority that play these three jobs are really bad and they are making them more complicated. On top of that by buffing them they are labeling them OP but bads who are going to flock to the new OP jobs...

You are about to see so many bad war/drg/mnk its going to make you sick.

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Sounds like a lot of speculation without any evidence to back it up. Every war/drg/mnk I play with is very good at their class.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

2 positional attacks is hard to play?

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You are a Monk, obviously you're going to make it seem like it's a lot easier than it is, which it isn't. I said at end game, at an optimum level, you are worrying about more than "2 positional" attacks. Having to worry about clipping Chaos Thrusts/Phlebs/Fractures, and putting them back on immediately. Making sure you don't use a FT when HT is going to be dropping. When to use your cooldowns. When to jump. When to use TTT or IDC. When to apply Fracture? How to keep Phlebs and CT's up without losing DPS on a TTT combo? All this while dodging AoE and dealing with other boss mechanics.

The list goes on. I'd advise not jumping to conclusions on what is needed to play at an optimum level if you haven't done it.

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Originally Posted by Leira_Raine

This. SO MUCH THIS.

Especially the tanks. There are some tanks that just constantly move around everywhere during battle, and every time that happens I pretty much want to sit in a corner of said dungeon and probably rock myself.

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Haha, there's nothing worse than missing the HT buff several times in a row because the tank keeps moving the boss. Now that I am a tank, I try my best to plant and only move to avoid AOEs.

I really feel for the OP. I mean, he's obviously the best player in ARR across every server, and thus has to suffer immense mental duress each time SE makes a change where he has to tolerate players of lower caliber (everybody else).

I really hope SE goes out of their way to solve his epidemic.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I'm honestly wondering how I'm going to juggle Storm's Path and Storm's Eye, especially with them both combo-ing off enmity-less Maim (if they changed one to combo off Skull Sunder it would make much more sense IMO). I can see a lot of trial and error going on the days after the patch.

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Thats why they buffed the enmity bonus of defiance :)

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Thats why they buffed the enmity bonus of defiance :)

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That and who has threat problems as a warrior?

Monk and Drg are easily the hardest jobs to play correctly in high level content. A single mistake is a massive loss in DPS or a death and nearly every boss has a way to eat melee. We have to move with the tanks, the boss, the aoe, and in some cases range (turn2) all while getting our positional attacks in and keeping our buff/debuffs up. AoE for both Drg and Mnk is very hard to pull off without running out of TP. On top of all that we bring almost no support for our groups. If our LB wasn't so handy you can bet almost no one would ever want us.

Now we are getting a buff and everyone is going to scream how we are OP. Then people are going to start playing/rerolling the fotm OP jobs. Then these forums are going to fill with cries for nerfs of Drg and Mnk while calling us all a bunch of fotm idiots.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKun

So you played a low level Dragoon, more likely Lancer, and that's how you based the difficulty of the class/job?

Fail.

Also, BRD is the simplest class to play, there's no arguing that.

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Mind your mouth, I am a 1.0 player, plays every class, knows them and what I am saying is I just recently started to use it again in ARR and I find it easy and have no idea why people complain. So unless you have a valid argument about how "hard" dragoon really is please do say, if not please don't bother to post.

But anyway bard is one of the easiest, but by far paladin is the easiest. Taking too much damage hit a cooldown and has 1 enmity combo which makes it almost impossible to fail at once you have a decent idea on a cooldown rotation.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

There will be a bunch of war, drg and mnks that are even worse than they currently are. The majority that play these three jobs are really bad and they are making them more complicated. On top of that by buffing them they are labeling them OP but bads who are going to flock to the new OP jobs...

You are about to see so many bad war/drg/mnk its going to make you sick.

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Most Monks and Warriors I play with, are usually pretty great, I may be biased, but most Warriors in endgame I play with are considerably better skilll wise than PLDs, it's person to person though.
Dragoons though, I very, very rarely meet decent ones like 2% chance, lol.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKun

-stupidshitdrgsays-.

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Funny you don't even look at what a person has leveled before mindlessly insulting them. If you honestly don't have evidence of your claim then don't even post you're just being a mindless troll. Drg isn't hard to play you can easily look up the rotation. Only thing I hate is its position dependency. BRD isn't hard it isn't if you know the key concepts you can even macro it. It is fact though that PLD only do 1, 2, 3 theres a huge joke about it on the GIF forums its not a bad thing its just fact and any coil player knows it. Our tanks make jokes because tanking they say is the "easiest job" but gets the most credit. BRD is by far not the simplest but its in the top 4.

Now unless you are actually going to respond with a better comment instead of being on the same level as "your mom" you should just not talk.

Dragoon took me by surprise. After playing casters for so much time, I've got used to having very easy rotations and not having to care about AoEs.

I'm never mocking one again, and they deserve all the buffs they're getting.

Seeing a decent DRG is like finding a needle in a haystack.

I've seen way too many DRGs that only use the 3 GCD combo (TT -> VT -> FT) and don't even bother to keep buffs/debuffs, DoTs, etc up. They are also the same people that barely outDPS a tank or even do less. A lot of the time, they are decently geared (+1 Relic, ilvl90 stuff with DL being the lowest) but also make bad choices on Mythology vendor gear (such as the ilvl90 vendor gloves and pants).

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Originally Posted by Ayasee

Seeing a decent DRG is like finding a needle in a haystack.

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Tell me about it, sadly it is easier for us to take 2 monks to our coil group than even try to find a drg, which is sad cause we want a drg. Still though with 2.1 and faster myth and the endless drg coil drops, one of our monks will gear 1 up in no time. Especially with the unknown bard "nerf" that piercing debuff would more than overcompensate for it.

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Originally Posted by Ayasee

Seeing a decent DRG is like finding a needle in a haystack.

I've seen way too many DRGs that only use the 3 GCD combo (TT -> VT -> FT) and don't even bother to keep buffs/debuffs, DoTs, etc up. They are also the same people that barely outDPS a tank or even do less. A lot of the time, they are decently geared (+1 Relic, ilvl90 stuff with DL being the lowest) but also make bad choices on Mythology vendor gear (such as the ilvl90 vendor gloves and pants).

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You mean you don't power thrust and spear chuck? darn...
On the serious side...I feel they are boosted drg just so the bad drgs can be semi good. => I have only met one or two very good drgs though they can be amazingly powerful in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by WiseWolfHolo

Tell me about it, sadly it is easier for us to take 2 monks to our coil group than even try to find a drg, which is sad cause we want a drg.

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Get a DRG to 50 if you hadn't already and get some experience with it. :)

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Still though with 2.1 and faster myth and the endless drg coil drops, one of our monks will gear 1 up in no time. Especially with the unknown bard "nerf" that piercing debuff would more than overcompensate for it.

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I wish my static actually got DRG coil drops. It's been over a month of raiding and I have yet to get the maiming ring, the trousers or the visor. >.> We've been getting nothing but caster and BRD drops.

As for the BRD nerf, I don't mind its DPS being nerfed even though it does do some great DPS. I leveled it for its usefulness and Coil.

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Originally Posted by AunaYuuki

I have only met one or two very good drgs though they can be amazingly powerful in 2.0.

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I think it will take SE about a month to realize the whole boosting dmg to melees and nerfing bard was a horrible idea. Makes no sense to really make a 330 steady dps class boost to a say 370+ dps class.

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Originally Posted by Ayasee

Get a DRG to 50 if you hadn't already and get some experience with it. :)


I wish my static actually got DRG coil drops. It's been over a month of raiding and I have yet to get the maiming ring, the trousers or the visor. >.> We've been getting nothing but caster and BRD drops.

As for the BRD nerf, I don't mind its DPS being nerfed even though it does do some great DPS. I leveled it for its usefulness and Coil.

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I have a drg, granted right now since our coil drops for drg have also been rather low, but if it comes to it, once we get more practice and do not need the rain of death or songs at certain points in T5 then I will probably make the change. Let me in your coil group we have done coil 11 weeks and have yet to see any left side allagan bard drops, had 2 earrings, 1 choker and 1 bracelet. Not even sure how I got stuck as a bard for our group, since I was legacy it was probably because I could play whatever was the last open spot and that's what it was, but eh I made it my own and just do not like when classes get a "nerf" on something that they do not even do well. By all means our support is rather sad and again once players start to learn to do things such as manage mana/tp better and the extra kick of foe is not needed(which will probably never happen) then taking a bard for anything will become useless. Which is why I am against this whole "nerf." I mean come on SE you pretty much "nerfed" bard by boosting monk and drg, but they rather add insult to injury and actually touch bard. Either way no way to say what will truly happen til next week.

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Originally Posted by Ayasee

but also make bad choices on Mythology vendor gear (such as the ilvl90 vendor gloves and pants).

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As long as Coil continues to not drop any DRG gear, I'm going to continue to buy the visible Wyrm gear and then move on to the accessories. Yes, contrary to all other drop reports, my coil group has seen next to no DRG gear. Looking at my gear, one would think I started Coil of Bahamut a week ago. -_-

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Originally Posted by WiseWolfHolo

and the endless drg coil drops,

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I wish this was the case for my group.

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Originally Posted by Tanama

As long as Coil continues to not drop any DRG gear, I'm going to continue to buy the visible Wyrm gear and then move on to the accessories. Yes, contrary to all other drop reports, my coil group has seen next to no DRG gear. Looking at my gear, one would think I started Coil of Bahamut a week ago. -_-

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I was tempted at first too, but I held out and used crafted/melded shoes/gloves instead. If I bought the gloves/helmet/pants from the vendor, I would have instant buyer's remorse. The helmet I can see it being decent if you have the Allagan spear, but I don't think it's worth it even if it's ilvl90 (maybe for vanity though).

The only Wyrm gear I have slight buyer's remorse on are the Greaves because that slot is a Turn 5 drop. I do feel your pain on the lack of DRG coil drops in comparison to what everyone else says though. :( I finally got my gloves from Turn 2 only for them to drop the next 3 times after we cleared Turn 2. >.<

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Originally Posted by Aicasia

DPS*

Which is a lot less than a straight 10% damage increase.

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My brain just melted......

Lol I was thinking the same thing when I read that post.

What the hell is the difference between 10% dps increase vs a 10% damage increase.

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Originally Posted by Ayasee

I finally got my gloves from Turn 2 only for them to drop the next 3 times after we cleared Turn 2. >.<

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Congratulations! And yes, that seems to be the trend. I know that once I cap on mythology gear, it'll start pouring DRG gear from coil. I can see it now. o_o

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Originally Posted by Nysneirdre

Lol I was thinking the same thing when I read that post.

What the hell is the difference between 10% dps increase vs a 10% damage increase.

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Ironicaly his main is a monk......

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Originally Posted by Tanama

Congratulations! And yes, that seems to be the trend. I know that once I cap on mythology gear, it'll start pouring DRG gear from coil. I can see it now. o_o

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Ha I thought this would have been the case for me, after next week can use the heros belt because of the heros bracelet recoving the accuracy lost from the darklight belt, but still full left side myth and no bard drops. Pretty much just going to learn to live without it, but is what it is.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKun

You are a Monk, obviously you're going to make it seem like it's a lot easier than it is, which it isn't. I said at end game, at an optimum level, you are worrying about more than "2 positional" attacks. Having to worry about clipping Chaos Thrusts/Phlebs/Fractures, and putting them back on immediately. Making sure you don't use a FT when HT is going to be dropping. When to use your cooldowns. When to jump. When to use TTT or IDC. When to apply Fracture? How to keep Phlebs and CT's up without losing DPS on a TTT combo? All this while dodging AoE and dealing with other boss mechanics.

The list goes on. I'd advise not jumping to conclusions on what is needed to play at an optimum level if you haven't done it.

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You think a Monk doesn't need to do those or something? You're not a miracle worker for managing a few timers.

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Originally Posted by WiseWolfHolo

Ha I thought this would have been the case for me, after next week can use the heros belt because of the heros bracelet recoving the accuracy lost from the darklight belt, but still full left side myth and no bard drops. Pretty much just going to learn to live without it, but is what it is.

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I have been gathering philosophy materials preparing for 2.1. Currently, my DRG looks like this.

http://i.imgur.com/FJA1tyn.png

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Originally Posted by Tanama

I have been gathering philosophy materials preparing for 2.1. Currently, my DRG looks like this.

http://i.imgur.com/FJA1tyn.png

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:<
You know after your story about not getting drops ;_; im so sorry <333 all my love for you and luck on drops soon.

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Originally Posted by WiseWolfHolo

No debating that they deserve a buff, in terms of the jump reduction. The dmg boost, however, not really needed since they already do beastly dps even if the rotation gets broken up. Still though the problem with most drgs is that the vast majority just are too lazy to combo, have no idea how to combo or would rather be spear chuckers and think they are bards.

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Me neither... I was just commenting that I think they're harder to play than I thought.
I didn't knew their DPS was good though, I thought they were subpar compared to all other DD jobs.

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Originally Posted by Tanama

I have been gathering philosophy materials preparing for 2.1. Currently, my DRG looks like this.

http://i.imgur.com/FJA1tyn.png

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Damn... that's badass as f**k. Screw Coil drops, one day my DRG job will have the full Wyrm set.