I hate comparing this game to FF XI because it isn't trying to be FF XI but -

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

give me some gear that actually does interesting things... give me a sword that has terrible stats but has a %chance to reset the timer on a cd... something interesting to tool around with.

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Why would you want to have a much harder time holding hate for the chance to maybe use a mitigation ability more often? At least suggest something reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Raskbuck

Well, that's the reason I think his argument wasn't strong enough.

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in that case I agree.. I guess I thought you were saying that leveling up jobs doesn't count as content (my mistake). I think it can be enjoyable to a point but it shouldn't be framed as he did: "level up all classes while doing the same thing over and over, that is the content this game offers".

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Originally Posted by HunkyJimpjorps

Why would you want to have a much harder time holding hate for the chance to maybe use a mitigation ability more often? At least suggest something reasonable.

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because they could always balance it with other gear that does other things.

also, you are assuming I'm only talking about PLD, but fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Raskbuck

So when someone with everything leveled to 50, fully geared and whatnot complains about a similar reason, what are you going to tell them? That he or she shouldn't have rushed?

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actually yes I will tell them they shouldn't have rushed if they are going to whine that they consumed content faster than the developers can create it, just as the person whining about lack of content is lambasted for shunning content "because they think it's samey or just don't want to do it". Long story short, developers are in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation" I they actually DO have too little content and promise a patch every X months, people will whine that the patches are coming to slow, If they add enough content to keep the majority of players occuppied, then the "Hardcores" (lord, I hate that term, gives them way too much credit), will rush through it and then well...start whining that there is not enough content for them. (and that really is the key there). Managing player expectation vs. actual development time is an unwinnable battle. Players are a venal, selfish, and insatiable lot. They'll never be happy only less whiny, for a short period of time at least, before the wailing and gnashing of teeth begins anew. Like an Oroboros of petulance

to put it simply, On one hand we have a man who has wolfed down his meal and is complaining that He has only scraps left and could not taste it, on the other we have a starving man complaining that the menu is not to his liking...

Im sure this has been mentioned several times here, I didn't read every post. But Wings of the Goddess came out 6-7 YEARS after ffxi launched.

Check back here in 6 years. There's gonna be a ton to do then.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

I've played enough MMOs to know this is the simple truth of our digital worlds.

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I wouldn't go around claiming to know the truth of things, especially since we all have different experiences that are dyed with our personal perceptual prism. As such, I don't think pure objectivity exists; which is why I don't agree with people claiming to know how things truly work around here. Sure, we can have a vague grasp of the concept, but it's far from "the truth".

Regardless, sometimes it's not about demanding more content per se. There are times the very structure of the game (i.e: game design, fundamental directions) can have flaws in their system. In other words, it's not always about the quantity of it, but how you implement it.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

agreed.

my gripe with this is this: no one is forcing you to play. If you max out, aren't having fun, don't like the people you play with, cancel your sub and stop playing.

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That seems to be the most simple and pragmatic approach, but it's not always the best. It doesn't exactly remove the concerns the player in question was having, and if it's not addressed it could spread the issue even more.

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Originally Posted by Raskbuck

I wouldn't go around claiming to know the truth of things, especially since we all have different experiences that are dyed with our personal perceptual prism. As such, I don't think pure objectivity exists; which is why I don't agree with people claiming to know how things truly work around here. Sure, we can have a vague grasp of the concept, but it's far from "the truth".

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not claiming to know the truth of all things just this one thing. Players will ALWAYS demand more than the developers can deliver, but at the same time Developers will ALWAYS promise more than they can deliver. it's a vicious cycle. Once you quit demanding things, it becomes easier to create FEEDBACK rather than whiny complaints

Personally, the game is too young atm to be saying "I know the direction this game is going in". In the first year alone, not only they need to make content but they need to smooth out the bugs and the network that surrounds FFXIV ARR. I like the fact that we as a community can say how we feel the game looks and give ideas to help improve the game.

However comparing a game that is 4 months old in any means to a game that has 11 years under it's belt is not be any means a good comparison.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

not claiming to know the truth of all things just this one thing. Players will ALWAYS demand more than the developers can deliver, but at the same time Developers will ALWAYS promise more than they can deliver. it's a vicious cycle. Once you quit demanding things, it becomes easier to create FEEDBACK rather than whiny complaints.

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All I can say is, if things are always the same no matter what, we can't expect change. As such, we preserve the status quo and we cannot strive for something better. I'd like to believe necessity is the mother of invention, and nothing is set in stone. These demands, or whining, can actually be quite constructive for those willing to listen, despite their insatiable appearance.

The main problem I see is that people express their thoughts on the matter in a chaotic way, often drawing the attention of those who defend what they like with fervor. It's also known as escalating a conversation and becoming more hostile or less tolerant with each other as time passes. That can transform into making arguments not in hopes to reach a common agreement, but to destroy someone's opinion without taking the time to truly listen.

Welcome to the Theme Park MMO based on models like WOW and Tera and AION, and Guild Wars . . . This is what we asked for in the poles. This is what Yoshi and team built. . .

What is the confusion?

Games like Everquest and XI with vertical and horizontal progression are a thing of the past . . . most people want clear goals and paths to those goals . . .

You will not see anything reminiscent to XI in this game in terms of content organization. Look at Crafting you cannot craft base gears and use them and a dungeon item to unlock . . . Which Yoshi and team should do to keep crafting relevant (dungeon only business is not fair to crafters).

This game as it stands is a baby and its growing we get to be on the ground floor which is kinda awesome tbh. . . .


edited to get my whole post in

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Originally Posted by Speeral

This game as it stands is a baby and its growing we get to be on the ground floor which is kinda awesome tbh. . . .

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I agree 100% with this! This is the first time I've ever played an MMO from launch and I think it's so cool! Five years from now we'll be telling newbies horror stories of the past, walking up hill with no shoes on in the snow, etc. I look forward to that day!

I was in XI at launch... played EQ and many other games.

This is a new game and is not expected to have the same volume of content as an older game. My only issue is that, while I absolutely loved the story (and I wouldn't change it- it IS fantastic)... the game is really linear. I mean really. It feels like you are on rails right up through 50 and coil.

I know that it might be because there just isn't enough content that was developed and ready for a new release. I get that... but part of the issue is that with all group content being instanced (or fate "instanced").. there's just not really any sandbox content to explore with friends and enjoy.

I love the game, but the current design just worries me, because it is what I disliked about later WoW development and really demystifies the world in general and is not conducive to those "Hey lets go explore <blank> today" that I used to have with friends. The overworld is solo content and there aren't any expansive and open dungeons to crawl through... everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is micro encapsulated with a beginning and an end. There's not really any open ended play content.

I used to enjoy going to obscure zones and farming tradeskill materials, exploring, hunting down small named bosses that might have popped, or farming AAs. There's just none of that here.

That's not to say there never will be... I mean you can have the leveling component being a bit quick, but still content that caters to different styles of play at max level.

That is what I am hoping to see as the game moves forward.

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And again, I sincerely apologize because I'm sure this topic has been done to death.

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You are lying, OP. You don't feel like apologizing at all and it clearly shows.

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I just feel the need to say it.

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Yeah, you are such a special snowflake in need of your own thread about the same... non-intelligent thing.

Even when content was relevant in FFXI, it took god awful amounts of time to get anything done early on in the game.

- Dynamis locked for 72 hours at a time and you had to roll against several other of the same jobs, so it could take months to get a single drop.
- Sky NMs on crazy timers and aggressively camped. Once you actually get pop items you pray an item you need drops from the Sky Gods.
- Getting 5k xp per hour when you need 40k+ for each level 70-75.
- Camping Ground Kings against bots.

FFXI was designed around spending copious amounts of time in the game to actually accomplish something. I'm pretty sure most people do not want that to be the alternative to extending content in this game.

first update after only 4 months is what...new housing system, aesthetician, new raid, new dungeon, 2 new fights, 3 ex fights, pvp, 2 hm dungeons, new story content...that's not a small update. I don't remember FFXI having updates that big, only when expansions came out.
if FFXIV keeps up this momentum there will be plenty to do in due time, especially if they start releasing expansions on top of these updates.

Heres a question to the OP. Why would SE want to make this game so similar to FFXI? Why would they want to compete with themselves for subs? It makes more sense to appeal to audiences they do/did not already appeal to.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

I'm pretty sure most people do not want that to be the alternative to extending content in this game.

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While I wouldn't want everything to be so time consuming I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 things that were time consuming.

A 3 1/2 month old game =/= 11 year old game.

Remember what it's like now, so that in 5 years time, you can look back and think "Wow, this game has brought in a lot of content since I first started playing". This is probably what everyone who played XI since the US launch also thought after a few years. I started XI in 2007 (making it 5 years old, thus the chosen time above), and for me there was a lot of things to do. Even after the 6 years I've played it, I still haven't done everything. In the same way, people will be saying/complaining, about XIV, that they can't possibly catch up because there is too much to do.

If it's such an issue to wait for the content, which you would have to do for any MMO that isn't far from its launch, then come back in a year or two and then you'll have things to do. Even patch 2.1 is offering a lot of content. But if you don't want to take what is being offered, that's your fault only.

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Originally Posted by Pyretta_Blaze

While I wouldn't want everything to be so time consuming I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 things that were time consuming.

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Some types of time consuming activities are more tolerable than others.

For example... I don't want to spend 3 years getting to max level. Core character development being a time sink is boring.

Creating very long, sophisticated, and lore filled quests that take long periods of time are fun. They are optional content that can get you a unique and pretty reward, so players seem to be more understanding and appreciative of that kind of content.

Casual players that might not want to spend the next couple of months raiding the same content over and over might be welcoming of an incredibly long quest line that lasts just as long (takes a couple of months to complete- due to rich content- not arbitrary lock out times and tome farming).

For example- One expansion of EQ 2 had an enormous quest (The shield of Qeynos one) that took an entire expansion to do- I cared more about getting that one single item than I did about an entire set of raid dropped other gear. It was a really pretty and unique shield.

I thought the relic weapons were going to be like that... but instead they turned out to be one-dimensional boring kill X and spend X amounts of money on melds to get your weapon. It was a huge disappointment.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Some types of time consuming activities are more tolerable than others.

For example... I don't want to spend 3 years getting to max level. Core character development being a time sync is boring.

Creating very long, sophisticated, and lore filled quests that take long periods of time are fun. They are optional content that can get you a unique and pretty reward, so players seem to be more understanding and appreciative of that kind of content.
<snip>

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Very much agreed. I want a long term goal and currently I don't have anything.

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

I wouldn't be too worried.

Look at this interview: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...pli=1&sle=true

Yoshida says that basically FFXIV has to have its own content and stand on its own two feet first..like fix server issues, job balancing, tweaking, adding stats etc and then he will take things from FFXI. At least that is what I got from this.

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Wont happen with them taking everything from other games and handing everything out like candy. XIV has nothing of its own to stand on anyways, it has all been done before but in XIV it has been done even worse.

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Originally Posted by Snitchie

1-75 BLM in FFXI took me 7 months with casual playing. FFXIV 1-50 took me 2 weeks with casual playing.
Do I want to have it like back in 2004? HELL NO! am I happy now, hell yes !

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yup , but there is a big gap between 2weeks and 7month. one is way too fast and the other is way to long

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Originally Posted by Odd

Im sure this has been mentioned several times here, I didn't read every post. But Wings of the Goddess came out 6-7 YEARS after ffxi launched.

Check back here in 6 years. There's gonna be a ton to do then.

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yes but when WoG came out all 4years EG content was still relevent.
the slow leveling system made mid game content relevent too

in 4years when your max level will be 90+ and white gear you get from leveling quest is on par with/better than mytho/allagan gear, people will care about mytho/Coil as much as they care about all <50 dungeons now

I think the true problem with the linear progression is not the content itself but the way in which it is rewarded. Thus this has nothing to do with quantity so the comparisons between FFXI's content at start etc is moot and missing the OP's point entirely.

The problem is the item level system and linking primary stats to those levels and the weighting on those primary stats being significantly greater than the secondary stats. This is what sets up the linear progression and the limit in choices and the built in deterrent from exploring anything other than what will give you the highest level item available. As one person put it on here a person in all il90 gear with poorly balanced secondary stats will always outperform a il70 geared person with optimized secondary stats. Here is the problem and the different between FFXI. Item pieces were not constrained in this way and some items had stats that were just must haves regardless of their level. e.g. Brutal Earring

This item level obsolescence will be demonstrated shortly with CT. Content looks fun and exciting, but because the rewards are leveled at 80, the only reason to do them (in terms of progression) will be for cosmetics. This is a very poor motivator to try alternative content.

This is the system SE has chosen to go with for FFXIV and one which I think could be the start to painting themselves into a corner. While this item level makes it easy for SE to design the content difficulty based on well defined DPS/HPS standards, it does put everything on rails.

So the question remains... can this present system (not content) provide for a diverse progression path in terms of rewards as FFXI did?

So more options, each that can be considered "best" in a certain situation. Well, then the game devs had better put in those situations for all of them. Then you just need ALL of the gear, if only for the situations you intend to put yourself in, but then what?

Horizontal progression always sounds nice, but it seems like every game used as an example of it has either shut down or changed, and it just seems to boil down to the "thrill" of being one of the pioneers who figured out where to find the best lego pieces and how to arrange them best BEFORE everyone else who just uses online guides to copy them, thereby throwing ALL those other "options" and "choices" by the wayside. Either that or it's a sandbox game where there's no meaningful PvE content because the game is focused on Player-Generated content, aka PVP using different toys for the sandbox.

I give OP a solid "Speculation/10".

Keep on speculating. Seems thats all anyone does on this forum anyways.

I still think that they could reach a compromise between horizontal and vertical progression with a branching progression system eventually down the line. Something along the lines where players must work for 5 different but equal sets of gear that work for a unique set of dungeons/raids.

The easiest way to imaging this is using gear resistance as an overall gear check.

The trail could go like this:

Hit Lvl 50
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Entry Level Dungeons
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Entry Fire| Entry Lightning|Entry Water| Entry Ice| Entry Wind
____v____|_____v_______|_____v____|____v___|_____v_____
Fire Raid | Lightning Raid |Water Raid | Ice Raid | Wind Raid
v
Final Raid

Basically the entry dungeons can all require the same base gear set and reward pieces that give equal stats plus a base level of resistance. Later raids will require more resistance as you travel through and gear up. The last boss in each elemental raid will give one different piece of resistance free gear (head/chest/gloves etc.) with a huge stat bonus. These items will be required to progress to the Final Raid.

Most people tend to hate the concept of resistance checks though so maybe some other means of a stat check could be at work here.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

And again, I sincerely apologize because I'm sure this topic has been done to death. I just feel the need to say it.

One point I am unable to get over is the way progression is handled. In FF XI (At least in the early days when it was 1-75 and WoTG was the newest expansion) you never felt like you would run out of content. Once you finished one expansion or piece of end game there was an entire new path with equally relevant rewards waiting for you,

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You do realize WoTG was the third expansion and which was 4 years after initial release. Any expecting years of content from an initial release of a MMo is delusional. I agree that there was a lot of content available upon us release PC and later on PS2, but this was due to the game had been out about a year and already had an expansion.

If Yoshi-P had rolled out ARR in the same fashion I am sure there would be a ton of content and we wouldn't be having so much complaints from people burning through it so fast. When WoW first came out it didn't have any endgame content for like 6 months, but had a lot of quest and large zones to explore. FFXIV has smaller zones and say ~>25% the amount of quest but has some endgame content and adding more quest and endgame content less than 6 months in.