Q: I feel that black mage is a bit overpowered.

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Originally Posted by NightWrath

Lie, we are dps with support skills, that's the true, more then 80% of our abilities are dps skills, we spend 99% of the battle doing dps, and 1% turning on/off a music, in a good group we don't use anything but foe requiem, losing dps only to turn it on. so pls don't talk about what u don't know.

To the one who sad blm has no utility skill, WTF.... eye for an eye(awesome), virus(holy shit), lethargy(...), blm is one of the best class to bring to coil, he cant kite on t4 for quite some time, extremely useful at t5, the high dps... i would prefer a team with 1 bard and 3 blm them anyone else.

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I'm pretty sure I know what I am talking about, but thanks for the nod of arrogance. Yes, most of your skills are DPS but your primary role in a party has little to do with your damage output and everything to do with your songs. You're like the RDM of XI but with physical attacks instead of enfeebling magic. Face it, you're a buffbot. Yes, a bard's DPS contributes and can be decent, but it should never be as high as a melee DPS or Caster. It is a support job. Know your role.

I feel like too many BRDs imagine a impenetrable dichotomy between support and dps. You can be both! In fact, you are. "I'm not a support, I'm a dps!" gets overused. If you actively try to be exclusively one or the other then you're going to suck at the other half of your class... Even if you assume that your class is 99% dps and 1% support (you'd be way off, but oh well) then it's reasonable that you could only get within 99% of a pure dps (e.g. BLM) numbers.

More on topic, I guess, I think us BLMs could do without apoc or EfaE. Not that I'm in any way against my class getting as much stuff as possible, but those 2 moves specifically feel very out of place next to the rest of the BLM moves. And if we are intended to be the "pure" dps class then I don't see much of a reason for them to be there (although I'm pretty sure we only get apoc and freeze because someone was too lazy to think of real BLM moves...).

Someone forgot Sprint and having no resource that it detracts from.

Also: Swiftcast Blizzard II.

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Originally Posted by Astarica

Utilty in this game is pretty bogus anyway. This is pretty much the only MMORPG I can think of where CC effects even work on bosses and that seems to be only done so that you've to pick 2 classes that can silence for High Voltage. If you want bogus utility, I'm sure it's easy to come up with an equally bogus encounter that requires Freeze or Apocostasis, so I'm not too worried about the utility or lack there of on a BLM, because nobody really has any utility to begin with as the game is designed with gimmick encounters to give the illusion of utility.

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You know what I really hate in RPGs? That status effects rarely work on the mobs that I actually want to use them on. Not sure why you call certain jobs being able to use CCs on bosses is "bogus utility".

And you could actually enfeeble bosses in FFXI too.

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Originally Posted by Sinth

Because Bard is a support job, not a DPS. The buffs they provide are required to pass some fights, but their damage output is not.

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But if we joined the group as ARC instead of bard you would: A)Laugh at us B)Ask us to switch to BRD C)Kick us D)A&B E)A&C. Don't even dare denying that you would do one of these things because we all know that this would happen.

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Originally Posted by Warthain

because unlike the black mage which only brings damage to a fight, the bard brings great and mobile damage, lots of utility(songs) and cc, when you factor in all these aspects you can tell why bard is getting a nerf, because they simply bring to much to a fight...
Theres no other class which can dps 100% of the time in any fight, while buffing its party and CC'ing has required.

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You obviously don't know BRD then. While a song is active, our MP is drained so songs last only as long as we have MP AND we lose 20% Damage. What CC are you speaking of? We BRDs don't have any like the BLM and WHM do.

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Originally Posted by SirSaber

Dude ...

Even in MOBAs silence is considered a CC...

@Warthahahahain (sorry had this pun in my head :p )

You are right about the Multi tasking Bard but if they had to remove some strength from us at least I wish they would add some kind of versatility to our support.

I mean, heck, our Job master had a damn micro hp regen and attack damage song... why not us ? T_T

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HOWEVER, our silence lasts only like 3 seconds while other games that use silence as CC have their's last for a lot longer.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...h25JiMe92kJaww

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Or you could... you know... have 2 paladins that aren't bad...

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^This, I LOL so hard ...

Please try 2 PLD with out BRD and see how fast you got murder by T1 ADS. (It doesn't count if you have OVERgeared DPS to tank T1 ADS add ;P)

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Originally Posted by Fantasy9

But if we joined the group as ARC instead of bard you would: A)Laugh at us B)Ask us to switch to BRD C)Kick us D)A&B E)A&C. Don't even dare denying that you would do one of these things because we all know that this would happen.

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I personally would do B&C, no reason to laugh that is just mean. But if I ask for a bard I want a bard who can silence the mobs I need silenced. If you changed to mnk and was able to silence as that. That is fine with me aswell. But when people ask for a bard they want a bard to be able to get past certain mechanics. As Sinth said there, you are taken for your silence and songs, not your D.

My two cents on this subject:

Neighter BLM or MNK deserves from a balance perspective to be on top of the DPS chain, DRGs do. They have the worst utility to date in instances. Yes sure, most of BLM utility is "bad" because of how the end game encouters are designed now. But we have alot of utility tricks and alot of very broken ways to prevent damage like Manawall. And if a hard battle will ever leave sleeps as a possibility o.o ey dude, THAT will be BLM's turn to shine for real. I do not have a hard time seeing there being atleast 1 end game instance anytime in the future where sleep might make it alot easier. I remember leveling up and how ridiculously easy our multitarget sleep made all trash encounters and some bosses with sleepable adds (the first boss in cutters cry comes to mind). Also, our AoE man, our AoE.. And infinite mana. Currently, I can never see an instance being designed in such a way that DRG would be a first choice for DPS. This is why they deserve boost.

But ofc I am mad that MNKs might take our DPS king crowns ;( I like that crown :(

EDIT: Because of this I will not rageswitch to MNK as main :P I do honestly not care that I am not top DPS anymore more than it was nice being that. I love being BLM :) I play the class because I like how they play, not because of their power.

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Originally Posted by Sinth

I'm pretty sure I know what I am talking about, but thanks for the nod of arrogance. Yes, most of your skills are DPS but your primary role in a party has little to do with your damage output and everything to do with your songs. You're like the RDM of XI but with physical attacks instead of enfeebling magic. Face it, you're a buffbot. Yes, a bard's DPS contributes and can be decent, but it should never be as high as a melee DPS or Caster. It is a support job. Know your role.

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And yet when I'm in a light party I'm the primary DPS. Go figure. A 25-second ability used during a 4-minute boss fight doesn't assign your role. If bards did nothing but songs for a 4-min fight you could label us support, but the truth of the matter is that we don't. We're DPS with support abilities.

Curious why monks are getting a buff when usually -they- are top dps in the pts ive been in.I smell a OP <4 months down the road> Nerfing again

Brd doesn't need to be nerfed now that people are realizing how to EG the demand is dropping. The true buffs need to go to DRG then WAR, imo

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

BLM: STR/DEX reduction (Virus), Slow (Lethargy), Bind (Freeze, Blizzard2), Heavy (Lethargy, Blizzard), Elemental damage resistance (Apocatastasis), Heal (Physick), Damage reduction on hit (Eye for an Eye)
DRG: Slow (Feint, Haymaker), Stun (Leg Sweep, Spineshatter), Piercing damage increase (Disembowel, additional damage limited to BRD and other DRG), 5% healing increase (Mantra)

//EDIT: Forgot one.

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BLM:

Virus isn't as good as arcanist's, nobody uses slow for anything, bind is worthless, heavy is worthless, apocatastasis has a very long cd and is very situational, heal... really? ...

Stop trying. No matter how you look at it, the answer in the OP is right, BLM is specialized as DPS, they don't offer the same utility other classes do.

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Originally Posted by Sinth

I'm pretty sure I know what I am talking about, but thanks for the nod of arrogance. Yes, most of your skills are DPS but your primary role in a party has little to do with your damage output and everything to do with your songs. You're like the RDM of XI but with physical attacks instead of enfeebling magic. Face it, you're a buffbot. Yes, a bard's DPS contributes and can be decent, but it should never be as high as a melee DPS or Caster. It is a support job. Know your role.

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I cant believe your level 50 and have not seen how the game is set up. There are no support classes. Tank/DPS/Heals. The "bard" class in this game is a DPS class with a few songs. Bards already do lower damage than other DPS, but they should since they have no cast times and are ranged, best of both worlds. Truthfully, they should have implemented the dps buffs to the other classes first, seen how that worked and then decided if Bard needed any tweeking.

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Originally Posted by rowdey1

Now to address your comment .. frankly it makes you sound very ignorant because the reason that coil groups take a bard IS NOT because of its dps , Im going to leave it at that and see if you can figure out why coil groups take bards with them

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Simmer down, now.

BRD contends with the ongoing problem with support classes in MMORPGs. Once that buff is in the wild, it becomes your design standard. In order for BRD to be truly balanced, it must have sufficient drawbacks that replacing the job entirely does not unduly gimp the party. The utility it provides must be fully replaceable. If you build a party with no BRD at present, content is nearly impossible to complete. This is partially an encounter design failure (encounters too long, results in TP starvation and ultimately triggering enrage timer) and partially a class balance failure.

Quite frankly, BRD need a much larger nerf than they will get, but there's a lot that goes into it. Encounters right now are built in such a way that BRD are a tailor-made counterpick for everything. Silence for ADS? Blunt Arrow. TP starvation? Army's Paeon. Pushy mechanics like Landslide and bombs? All range and no cast time. That said, it seems that the dev team's approach is simply going to be to buff everyone else. MNK was not bad before, but is getting buffed further. BLM is still absurdly powerful, but has avoided the nerfbat.

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Originally Posted by Dorin

BLM:

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Please read the thread before responding. Your response to that post is nearly identical to Voire's, to which I responded:

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

One way or the other, that misses the point -- BLM does not comparatively lack utility. If you discount Lethargy, then you must also discount Feint. Physick is (sadly) not worse than cross-class Mantra. If Leg Sweep is not being used as a primary interrupt, then Virus and Eye for an Eye are also superior long-term damage reduction. Virus can be used to reduce Death Sentence damage, but Leg Sweep cannot. I do not find the utility argument compelling when it it is not generally applicable.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

BLM is still absurdly powerful, but has avoided the nerfbat.

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BLM's are getting nerfed in 2.1. No more double flare bug... I think that counts as a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

BLM's are getting nerfed in 2.1. No more double flare bug... I think that counts as a nerf.

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So a bug fix = nerf. I may have gotten brain cancer from trying to equate the two.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

BLM's are getting nerfed in 2.1. No more double flare bug... I think that counts as a nerf.

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I don't believe it would be fair to characterize the fix to what is clearly a bug as a nerf. You could equally say that Twintania was buffed when they removed access to fix the disconnection AI bug. The fight got harder, but it did not get harder than it was designed within the game. It was just fixed. When the Twister attack was later nerfed, that was a change to the way the fight was intended to be played so that the encounter would be easier. Similarly, BRD is getting an actual nerf -- there are no bugs associated with the (modest) DPS reduction on that job.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

I don't believe it would be fair to characterize the fix to what is clearly a bug as a nerf. You could equally say that Twintania was buffed when they removed access to fix the disconnection AI bug. The fight got harder, but it did not get harder than it was designed within the game. It was just fixed. When the Twister attack was later nerfed, that was a change to the way the fight was intended to be played so that the encounter would be easier. Similarly, BRD is getting an actual nerf -- there are no bugs associated with the (modest) DPS reduction on that job.

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Still nerfes us. I do know where you come from though and get your point, but this is about class balance and taking away a tool (intentional tool or not) nerfs us. But I would lie if I said this is the only thing (or even a major thing) that makes BLM very good.

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Originally Posted by OldGeezer

And yet when I'm in a light party I'm the primary DPS. Go figure. A 25-second ability used during a 4-minute boss fight doesn't assign your role. If bards did nothing but songs for a 4-min fight you could label us support, but the truth of the matter is that we don't. We're DPS with support abilities.

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The point is your support abilities are valued so high that your dps needs to be low.

in this case about blm double flare,
a bug fix means a nerf. it's just a matter of wording. A nerf means to weaken. if they are going to take away the ability to double flare. it means to weaken the Job, in other word (and in this case) it's a nerf.

dude get over it, obviously you main as a blm. your still going to be doing more dmg than anyone else. try playing melee dps while looking for coil groups or wp/ak speed runs, yep i said it, even after the changes everything will be exactly the same, just melee will only be doing 10% increased dmg. nobody is going to want melee dps for anything still. the change was made for balancing pvp more than anything and is probably very little pve related

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

I am not sure how I am to take this.

So the melees that can stun, or silence, etc you want to be able to catch up to a job that doesn't have those?

So are melees going be restricted by movement to do attacks? Us moving cancels our spells and we have to move a lot. Usually that's the best time for melees to play catch up.

If you can keep it balanced fine, just ready for me if black mage can't keep up with melees because we have to stop and they don't.

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fixing a broken ability that is be used in a way it was not designed is not considered a nerf...

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Originally Posted by Umero

in this case about blm double flare,
a bug fix means a nerf. it's just a matter of wording. A nerf means to weaken. if they are going to take away the ability to double flare. it means to weaken the Job, in other word (and in this case) it's a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Aysha_Alese

fixing a broken ability that is be used in a way it was not designed is not considered a nerf...

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Your aoe dps will go down after the fix = nerf

I have never used this double flare glitch, so it won't have a massive impact on me.

But major fights have everyone running around a lot, that's what hurts a black mages damage is movement.

I am all for balance, but a job that is purely dps should always outdamage the one that can do more than just dps.

Just looking at all the crap warrior and paladin have been going through for the balance issues from 1.0 to now to see that it is very likely for someone to be buffed too much.

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Originally Posted by hallena

Your aoe dps will go down after the fix = nerf

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double flare will exsist using convert or potions that give you more than 270 mana. doing double flare or triple flare using said items and abilities is not the problem they are adressing. They are stopping people from getting out a double flare without the use of convert or items which is a bug. If you have mastered it and you solely depend on it for your aoe then sadly you will suffer for depending on a bug that was found , explained then exploited. I for one never used that method of double flare so it wont affect me at all.

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Originally Posted by Fantasy9

HOWEVER, our silence lasts only like 3 seconds while other games that use silence as CC have their's last for a lot longer.

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Silence is basically a Stun for magic spells in this game.

Not really sure why people are trying to argue that Stun and Silence don't function as crowd control.

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Originally Posted by Aysha_Alese

fixing a broken ability that is be used in a way it was not designed is not considered a nerf...

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comparing with having that broken ability and without it means comparing with a stronger blm and a weaker blm. If you mmake changes to a strong blm to become a weaker one. That's the basic definition of "nerf". Be it a fix or not. The two things can be co-exist. It's a fix and it is also a nerf.

They handled the situation better when they dealt with the pld capability of handling bc while war had hard time doing so by NOT "fixing"/"nerfing" pld, instead, they "buff"/"fix" war. The same logic applies here but they aren't going to do the way they did to war/pld

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Silence is basically a Stun for magic spells in this game.

Not really sure why people are trying to argue that Stun and Silence don't function as crowd control.

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Stun and Silence are not CC in this game. They are "Interrupts".

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Originally Posted by Fantasy9

Stun and Silence are not CC in this game. They are "Interrupts".

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And interrupts are crowd control too.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

And interrupts are crowd control too.

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Not really because those two abilities are single target and last only a few seconds. BLMs have CC with AoE sleep and WHMs have semi-CC with repose.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

And interrupts are crowd control too.

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because mobs silenced dont keep fighting with their weapons or punching u on the face!

and amused at the ppl that is "laughing" about 2 pld silencing the whole Coil T2 , my party does it (and we have a bard, but he silences only when a tank used the silence at wrong time or is unable to silence next high voltage)

Hint: If u arent tanking ADS u silence next high voltage.....hard to press a button when u arent even tanking ~~

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Still nerfes us. I do know where you come from though and get your point, but this is about class balance and taking away a tool (intentional tool or not) nerfs us. But I would lie if I said this is the only thing (or even a major thing) that makes BLM very good.

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BLM's will still be able to put out top tier DPS. Get over it. Our class isn't getting nerfed. You do NOT want to see SE's methods of nerfing.

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Originally Posted by Sinth

Face it, you're a buffbot. Yes, a bard's DPS contributes and can be decent, but it should never be as high as a melee DPS or Caster. It is a support job. Know your role.

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Having three situational raid cooldowns does not equal to being "support". It just means you're a DPS with raid cooldowns. Not unlike an enhance shaman with Bloodlust/Heroism.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

You know what I really hate in RPGs? That status effects rarely work on the mobs that I actually want to use them on. Not sure why you call certain jobs being able to use CCs on bosses is "bogus utility".

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Because then it becomes "necessary" either by developer intentions or player tactics. It also messes with encounter balance at some point. Actual debuffs (attack down, attack speed down, defense down, magic defense down, elemental resistance down) makes sense because you can tweak how those affect the boss or just have the boss stats be so that the effect is noticeable on the player's side without trivializing the fight.

When you start getting into stuff like Silence, Pacification, Sleep, Stun, not to mention fears and incapacitates, you're effectively forcing the devs to make one-shot kill abilities in response in order to create challenge, as otherwise those spells trivialize the encounter on some part.

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Originally Posted by Remn

^This, I LOL so hard ...

Please try 2 PLD with out BRD and see how fast you got murder by T1 ADS. (It doesn't count if you have OVERgeared DPS to tank T1 ADS add ;P)

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That's where a scholar and monk come into play. But hey, if your group can't do without a BRD, then by all means.

I do not see why it has started such an argumentation about that I said to fix double flare is a nerf. I resonded to someone saying BLM avoided the nerf hammer when we did not. I do think it was the correct thing of SE to do as it was indeed a bug. But I do not deny that it weakens/nerfes BLM. Saying something else is eighter missunderstanding of the term "nerf" or an outright lie.

That it is a fix does not mean it can not be a nerf. That I point this out does not mean I think it is bad that they fix this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_(video_gaming) here is a definition of "nerf". This does indeed reduce the effectiveness of AoE.

Eh, I still like BLM's design better in XI... (goes for most jobs really)

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Originally Posted by Remn

^This, I LOL so hard ...

Please try 2 PLD with out BRD and see how fast you got murder by T1 ADS. (It doesn't count if you have OVERgeared DPS to tank T1 ADS add ;P)

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My group runs 2PLD and our bard is never in silence rotation. Monk just runs silence rotation on t1 ads, it's pretty easy.

considering how hard it was to pull off the double flare and that the first flare is pretty weak I don't see how fixing it is a nerf. it might become a nerf though if they actually fix the reason that made it possible to begin with. the way the server recognizes damage on mobs and activation of buffs like astral fire/umbral ice. cause if they "improve" this, it'll mean no more fast casted fire after fire III. but on the other hand it could also mean that we can use our Firestarter when it procs and not have to wait on finishing the next cast.