Titan HM tanked as WHM

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Originally Posted by AntonyB

Funny as hell, WHM keeping hate better than 90% of tanks GG.

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It is extremely easy to keep threat with medica 2 + whatever.

shouldn't be showing you can do things that aren't intended to be doable, might get nerfed like bards coz they aren't intended to out dps even the baddest of the bad melee dps.

joking aside that is freakin awesome lol

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

You may not realize, but your post has a very snooty tone to it :/ Our WHM friend here isn't claiming she's tanking-incarnate, only that she and her group did something very cool. Can't we just let it be a neat thing and congratulate them on it instead of having a if-you-can't-do-it-blindfolded-you-fail mentality?

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You mean aside from it being not intended? This is not that different than the rogue evasion build that could tank Gruul's lair better than any of the tanks at the time and resulted in evasion scaling getting (rightfully) nerfed to the ground. I respect the fact that the OP got around the system and managed to pull it off, but it would be irresponsible to allow this to remain as is.

I'm thinking they might tweak enmity generated by overhealing if they choose to do anything about this. At least that'd also mean a healer using HoTs before a pull isn't going to make stablishing aggro the headache it currently is.

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

To be fair, you're full ilvl 90 with over-melded VIT accessories and spec-ed for VIT. HM titan is a level 70 encounter...

Congrats on being overpowered: now try this on coil XD

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http://i.imgur.com/tJ9x60o.gif

All the haters don't realize that this White Mage is incredibly skilled. He memorized the entire fight and used stone skin for almost every single Table Flip. I love it. Great job!

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Originally Posted by Tenku

All the haters don't realize that this White Mage is incredibly skilled. He memorized the entire fight and used stone skin for almost every single Table Flip. I love it. Great job!

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The skilled healers were the ones keeping me alive! I had the easy job (and a boat load of hp)!

This isn't really in the same league as evasion tanking etc though. The only advantage I brought to the table was comical amounts of enmity generation, in every other regard I was an absolutely horrible tank! I was stone skinning myself, I had sch bubble and we had a virus rotation for every mountain buster. It's just a silly stunt and will amount to little more unless some encounter comes along that solely relies on snap hate against mobs that don't hit particularly hard!

It says it is copyrighted! D: can't see. I'm too late.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

You may not realize, but your post has a very snooty tone to it :/ Our WHM friend here isn't claiming she's tanking-incarnate, only that she and her group did something very cool. Can't we just let it be a neat thing and congratulate them on it instead of having a if-you-can't-do-it-blindfolded-you-fail mentality?

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Ehh... Well I certainly don't have a white mage who can do that... Wasn't trying to be condescending: just wanted to point out that your gear played a big part in this. Congrats again.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

You may not realize, but your post has a very snooty tone to it :/ Our WHM friend here isn't claiming she's tanking-incarnate, only that she and her group did something very cool. Can't we just let it be a neat thing and congratulate them on it instead of having a if-you-can't-do-it-blindfolded-you-fail mentality?

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Problem here is, ...he is right. I have nothing against the OP but for us to relish that they provided us with something cool. It should in fact be ...cool. If I posted a video and advertised it to attract you and it was of me as full i90 paladin going outside of Uldah and SMOKEING a lady bug. Would you be happy someone wasted your time? I don't think he was being particularly rude persay but if we constantly give people attention whenever they want it these days for whatever, the acts people perform would get severely out of hand.

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Originally Posted by Earnhardt

Problem here is, ...he is right. I have nothing against the OP but for us to relish that they provided us with something cool. It should in fact be ...cool. If I posted a video and advertised it to attract you and it was of me as full i90 paladin going outside of Uldah and SMOKEING a lady bug. Would you be happy someone wasted your time? I don't think he was being particularly rude persay but if we constantly give people attention whenever they want it these days for whatever, the acts people perform would get severely out of hand.

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So... tanking titan in i90 gear is the same as 'SMOKEING' a lady bug in i90 gear.

Cool story.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I respect the fact that the OP got around the system and managed to pull it off, but it would be irresponsible to allow this to remain as is.

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I'm curious, in what way? It seems to me Sebazy had to have exceptional gear (including VIT gear she had to buy/collect that a white mage wouldn't usually worry about), a unique stat allotment (which takes a considerable amount of grand company seals, probably twice over as I assume Sebazy won't want to remain speced for VIT permanently), a good grasp of the Titan fight, and a group of 7 other people willing to give an odd-ball, unpracticed, method a try.

I can't imagine many people are going to put forth all this energy to have a WHM tank Titan when arguable its easier and more reliable to let traditional tanks handle it...and even if they did, would it be game-breaking in any way if a few groups did?

Titan isn't hard especially when we've had 2+ months to get myth and coil gear. You can do titan with a minimum of 4 people alive the entire time.

The fight itself is the same repeated pattern over and over again until you beat him once the heart is dead. There isn't much to "memorize" nor is knowing when to cast stoneskin/virus/rain of death/eye for an eye special given all the time you have to do it before mountain buster.

I think what this does show is that some adjustments to heal over time hate generation probably need to be made considering that you can hold hate from highly geared dps as a white mage.

It's different, but some of the reactions to it in this thread are treating it as if you solo tanked Twintania as a warrior with one healer or something.

It was entertaining though.

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Originally Posted by Kirsi

It was entertaining though.

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I've been reading some of the posts by other people in this thread and i agree with some and some i do not, i am sure the devs will watch this video and let's just leave it up to them to see if they will do anything or maybe nothing at all.

I think the main point of the OP's post was that "It was an entertaining video to watch", and its probably the main reason he posted it...that's what i see it as anyways...I thank you OP for posting such an entertaining video!.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

I can't imagine many people are going to put forth all this energy to have a WHM tank Titan when arguable its easier and more reliable to let traditional tanks handle it...and even if they did, would it be game-breaking in any way if a few groups did?

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Nobody that needs Titan is going to let a whm tank it. The purpose of this video (probably) had nothing to do with any "benefit" to a whm tanking it (which mostly amounts to pretty good enmity and regens for all the melee, all the time. It is not "arguably easier" to let a tank with twice the effective health and cooldowns, it flat out is easier.

This was just a person having fun.

*Raises a cup of sake to people taking a look outside the box and see what's there.*

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Originally Posted by Steeled

Nobody that needs Titan is going to let a whm tank it. The purpose of this video (probably) had nothing to do with any "benefit" to a whm tanking it (which mostly amounts to pretty good enmity and regens for all the melee, all the time. It is not "arguably easier" to let a tank with twice the effective health and cooldowns, it flat out is easier.

This was just a person having fun.

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You'll get no argument from me there :P I was just wondering why Duelle considered it irresponsible for the game to allow a WHM to pull it off. Since it takes so much effort for so little gain, I was making the argument it doesn't matter if WHM can tank it like Sebazy demonstrated. Perhaps a slight derail on my part ><' as the video isn't really about that, just a side discussion that sprung up.

Fun stuff :D
I really dont know why are you getting all this hate D:

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Originally Posted by Kirsi

I think what this does show is that some adjustments to heal over time hate generation probably need to be made considering that you can hold hate from highly geared dps as a white mage.

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Yes and no.. Me and Sebazy are a part of the Attack on Titan LS of Ragnarok, i've done many runs with him both as healer myself and Tank and i can say that for most of the fight, even without medica II Sebazy is top or second from top on the hate table. even after using the ability that lowers enmity he can climb back up the table.. thats probably where this idea first came from (i was invited last minute for VIT boost)

The Yes being, maybe something should be done about hate generation.. the no being its not even regen that does it

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Originally Posted by Nici

I think the main point of the OP's post was that "It was an entertaining video to watch"

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Exactly this, it was to do something not been seen before.. and the first thing said once titan died was "xD that was hillarious" it was done for fun, nothing more :)

If the ultimate result of this video is that the overhealing enmity generation gets reduced, I'm totally ok with that. If nothing happens, oh well, ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

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Originally Posted by DenzelTaru

The Yes being, maybe something should be done about hate generation.. the no being its not even regen that does it

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Putting certain situations with weird hate generation aside (The initial encounter on titan and the one after the first jump/disposal node in turn 2) it is pretty hard to steal hate without using some kind of heal over time, its also part of the reason why SCH doesn't have nearly as many issues with hate generation in comparison to whm (size of heals being the other part). You're telling me that casting heal over time spells on an entire party does not cause hate generation problems? You should play WHM more.

Better yet, since regen doesn't cause hate generation issues try casting a medica 2 on the party before engaging a target in coil and see what happens.

Didn't wana read through 6 pages, but I'm curious - How did you manage to keep enmity as a WHM? A WHM can't really do more damage than a pure DPS class, and the other WHM dedicating themselves to healing would be putting out more heals than them. Looking at the party frames I didn't see you casting anything that often either, so I'd love to hear the details!

It's not so much that it's a regen style effect, more the sheer amount of HP it's pushing per tick, my cure average is ~1050, the initial heal from medica II is ~500 and additional regen ticks for an average of 250 for me, spread that across 8 people and that's a huge amount of HP being pushed. The fact that it's regen rather than a direct cure doesn't really come into it. Sch don't generate anything like the same amount of hate because much of their 'healing' comes via bubbles as well as the split between player and fairy!

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Originally Posted by peaches

How did you manage to keep enmity as a WHM?

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Divine Seal Medica IIs off the bat. I did a little damage during heart and stone skinned myself for busters.

A poorly geared whm can still pull hate with medica 2. I'm not saying size of heals doesn't influence hate generation, but what I am saying is that the main issue is the hate generation on heals over time and not heals like medica 1 or cure I/II. The SCH fairy (Eos) can pull hate with whispering dawn alone on a mob that spawns midfight and hold it for quite sometime because of the heal over time effect.

i.e. using Eos in the final turn 1 fight and having whispering dawn up with the snakes split can cause issues for this very reason even though whispering dawn isn't a particularly strong heal over time. Yet you can cast and crit a cure II for well over 2k and not get hate in the same situation?

You could spam succor all day and not pull hate in most situations which heals for an amount similar to medica II considering you can cast it much faster, but cast medica 2 more than once consecutively and you'll see hate issues.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Divine Seal Medica IIs off the bat. I did a little damage during heart and stone skinned myself for busters.

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I suppose I can see how that'd work, Medica II does really pull off some insane hate. I'm guessing you had a Bard for MP regen? I'm surprised Stoneskin was enough to get through mountain buster and his attacks in between - on my scholar I try to do Stoneskin and Adlo and it still usually brings the tank down to half health or under.

Its pretty impressive, I wish this video was from your PoV!

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Originally Posted by Kirsi

You're telling me that casting heal over time spells on an entire party does not cause hate generation problems? You should play WHM more.

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you misunderstood what i was trying to say.. i am not saying medica ii isnt a massive hate sandwich.. it is..

what i was saying is.. even in phase 1 and 2 before medica ii is used he can be at the top of the hate table above +1 DPS

Basically shows how broken healing aggro is. Whms shouldn't have the ability to tank endgame bosses. I remember when in FFXI people bard tanked Fafnir, or RDM tanked several hnms then SE put in a nerf to their abilities enmity generation.

SE should fix it so overhealing doesn't generate any hate and there you go problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

SE should fix it so overhealing doesn't generate any hate and there you go problem solved.

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At one point or another, pretty much every single MMO I've played has eventually had to 'fix' (imo) agro generation from overhealing. It may, as some will say, promote less skillful play but it does make the game play feel a lot smoother when healing you arent actually doing is no longer causing agro.

What this video shows is that

1. Titan doesn't hit hard enough

He needs to 1 shot non tanks , mountain buster needs to do 10k damage . Tanks need better mitigation to actually be tanks .


Of course then they need to increase the damage of everything else in the game if they make tanks into actual tanks .

Like in RIFT if you pull agro off tank you get 1 shot killed . But its harder to pull agro. But in this game it would be more fun if they kept enmity as it is now and made bosses Hit a lot harder . Would make game harder and make DPS and healers be more careful.

1 other thing , healers need to know what their enmity is on boss without having to target switch to boss . Like make focus target show enmity bar .

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Originally Posted by DenzelTaru

People of Namek! lend me your strength!!

*charges spirit bomb*

http://i.imgur.com/6o2cwQg.jpg

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EPIC! bow down to the tiny masters!

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Originally Posted by Kirsi

A poorly geared whm can still pull hate with medica 2

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This, an i55 whm can pull hate off the best geared tank if they're truly careless with spamming aoe heals. The treasure is when these fools start ranting at the tank.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I remember when in FFXI people bard tanked Fafnir, or RDM tanked several hnms then SE put in a nerf to their abilities enmity generation.

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The difference with those is that both were quite good tanks, while manipulating the enmity of their jobs. 2 bard cotanks could stay at enmity cap, bouncing hate and rolling shadows. WHM, as it stands, will never be a good tank.

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Originally Posted by zdub303

It may, as some will say, promote less skillful play but it does make the game play feel a lot smoother when healing you arent actually doing is no longer causing agro.

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In WHM's case, the still is still watching your mp, even if enmity is not a concern. It is also simply not fair to the job that scholar rarely ever has enmity issues. I've never had Titan pulled off me by a whm or sch, but I've seen whm's climb freakishly high mid-fight. while scholars are often last or near-last in the hate list.

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Originally Posted by Grailer

1 other thing , healers need to know what their enmity is on boss without having to target switch to boss . Like make focus target show enmity bar .

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^ this, its not really fair to just go off the coloured icon.. i have been thinking of making all my healing macros <tt> so i can target the boss and heal his target.. this can cause problems though i guess.. theres also <ft> i guess.. but yea the post i quoted has it.. we need to see our hate generation (maybe not me as a sch so much)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEHtj_WVC5I

3 WHM 3 SCH 2 BRD

WHM needs a buff, look how much healing he requires! /sarcasm

Otherwise great job, was alot of fun, just watching it xD

Still no video.

Whm has always been the most survivable job as long as they don't get one shotted or something. Play all the jobs solo and you will know that whm are capable of doing shit others cannot cuz they just won't die. I've solo fate bosses my level as whm numerous times and pretty sure I can solo many dungeon bosses too. I can solo dhorma-chimera easy if I had stun.

That being said, you guys had 3 healers and shit crazy gear; why not just get a tank who will do more dps?

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEHtj_WVC5I

3 WHM 3 SCH 2 BRD

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Didn't realise I was beaten to it, grats to them though, it's interesting to see the radically different methods being used here!

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Originally Posted by PenutButter

That being said, you guys had 3 healers and shit crazy gear; why not just get a tank who will do more dps?

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Keep in mind that even with my HP, Mountain Buster near enough insta killed me without debuffs, I couldn't just throw on that gear and step up to the tanking plate in a pug. Both my run and the JP group linked above used a multitude of debuffs to keep things manageable. As for your closing point, this was purely a bit of fun seeing if we could execute a daft idea of mine. Turned out it wasn't as daft as I initially thought!