Why is race and nationality ignored so much in the lore? (why does the lore fail)

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

Put another way, the human brain is not designed to enjoy monotonous repetitive tasks that take no skill (so the average person would enjoy a repetitive activity like knitting which takes coordination and thus uses your brain, but not hitting the same button over and over and over and over and over again).Thats why all modern educational science points to interactivity as the best way to educate someone and not making them mindlessly solve problems on a sheet.

ok so why are mario and zelda still going strong? Or platformers in general... see little big planat. You spaming the jump button....
Name a game that actually really relies on skill. :) I have yet played a game that did.

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all those games have stimulus. If people got so much enjoyment from just walking through a repetitive area then why bother making ffxiv or zelda? Just make one zone without any actual game and sell it to people. Then they can walk around it over and over again for years and be entertained.
If what im saying is wrong, go do -just- that, and you will be rich.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

You basically called her stupid/slow/retarded for enjoying repetition more than you do. The average person would think that's rude.

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i didn't call anyone stupid or slow. Someone with autism might be fascinated by something i would find simple and pointless for hours, but that doesn't make them stupid or slow, or me smarter. It means they experience the thing in a different way than I do.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Pokemon is not a repetitive game in any way.

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No way dude. Get out of here.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Repetition is hitting the same button over and over and over again for an hour without doing anything else while thinking about hitting that button.
Or holding a button down for 15 minutes experiancing something you have seen 100 times before

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Well lucky for us, viewing familiar scenery and doing small lore quests has nothing to do with that.

Also, is "experiancing" another alternate spelling or just a typo?

only those who do not find away to keep there mind occupied have a mental break down. I make my own fun in games is more or less what I was getting at. :) I do not play a game and it be fun automaticaly. I ran around the cities because I loved how they look. Think of it as watching a sunset. I enjoy how it looks and I bask in it beauty. Like in oblivion I enjoyed looking at the moons and watching the sunrise and sun set. Much like ffxi. And WoW. I'm a simple person and do not need a game to cater to me or my tastes. Isimply try to find away to make the game fun. The only game I triely hated was two words, it was a 360 game that looked cheap. It had a completely thrown together map that was inconsistent. Like 1 town would be out of robin hood or lord of the rings then the next town would be japanese. And the dialog being elizibeathen was like watching a badly wriiten shakespirian play. (which they joked about in two words 2)

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

i
unless your brain is different than the average person in which case depending on the difference a square could be a whole different experience.

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Marketing teaches that the whole concept of "average person" is a logical fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Abriael, you don't know how to tell a story in a video-game medium.

Wall-of-text never even worked for Star Wars intros.

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Go tell it to Monkey Island, King's Quest, Final Fantasy, Baldur's Gate and quite a lot of other extremely successful games the text of which could easily fill thousands of walls.

Want more modern examples? Oblivion, The Witcher 1 and 2 (and The Witcher 2 is all the rage nowadays), Mass Effect 1 and 2... How do they convey the biggest part of their lore? With books )or similar). What are books? Walls of text.

Sorry to burst a bubble, but text in videogames still isn't dead. It's actually quite far from that point, especially for telling stories, and even more side-stories and general lore.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

umm, pokemon is not a repetitive game in any way.

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Pokemon is the most shining example of repeatitive grinding brought to the extreme consequences. And people (me excluded, mind you) love it.

Capture pokemon -> travel trough such an absolutely nondescript land that describing it as "monotonous" and "repeatitive" is equal to giving the designer undeserved prize -> fight aganst nondescript opponent through an oversimplified, skill-less fighting miningame -> Capture pokemon -> travel trough such an absolutely nondescript land that describing it as "monotonous" and "repeatitive" is equal to giving the designer undeserved prize -> fight aganst nondescript opponent through an oversimplified, skill-less fighting miningame -> Rinse, Repeat, until you chaugt them all.

Is it just me or are people actually defending bad storytelling and poor world design?

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Abriael, you don't know how to tell a story in a video-game medium.

Wall-of-text never even worked for Star Wars intros.

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so why is that wall of text used to represent star wars? It is iconic:) Even space balls started the same way XD

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Originally Posted by Gramul

No way dude. Get out of here.


Well lucky for us, viewing familiar scenery and doing small lore quests has nothing to do with that.

Also, is "experiancing" another alternate spelling or just a typo?

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i'm just tired and you obviously don't understand what i mean by repetitive.
When i'm talking about repetition i'm talking about an action that requires minimal brain activity
Pokemon has stimulus, choices, different things you fight, etc. It requires some level of thinking.

[QUOTE=Azurymber;158256]umm, pokemon is not a repetitive game in any way.

Repetition is hitting the same button over and over and over again for an hour without doing anything else while thinking about hitting that button.
Or holding a button down for 15 minutes experiancing something you have seen 100 times before[/QUOTE

grinding in pokemon is monotonous. The main difference in pokemon is that it has tangible rewards in the form of advancement, skills you give a **** about, new enemies and challenges and overall sense of accomplishment.


FFXIV, from 1 - 50 has you fight the same 20 recolored mobs, gives you the same skills 10-15 skills and their second tiers, and the sense that you've wasted the last 8 months

this topic has literally become "define fun"

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Is it just me or are people actually defending bad storytelling and poor world design?

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Trust me when I say this.

It's you.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Marketing teaches that the whole concept of "average person" is a logical fallacy.



Go tell it to Monkey Island, King's Quest, Final Fantasy, Baldur's Gate and quite a lot of other extremely successful games the text of which could easily fill thousands of walls.

Want more modern examples? Oblivion, The Witcher 1 and 2 (and The Witcher 2 is all the rage nowadays), Mass Effect 1 and 2... How do they convey the biggest part of their lore? With books )or similar). What are books? Walls of text.

Sorry to burst a bubble, but text in videogames still isn't dead. It's actually quite far from that point, especially for telling stories, and even more side-stories and general lore.

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Walls of texts in video games and movies can be done but why do that when it's the wrong medium? Go write a novel if you want to write one.

People don't understand the medium they are using if they make a video game with ten times as much text as there is interactivity.

/sigh

Humans are peculiar.

I l0oved reading the books in elder scrolls. My fav moment in Morrowwind was reading the serioys the "real" start of bahrozain (sp) then in tribunal actually meeting the npc. :) that was my fav moment. I was like HOLY thats the dark elf i read about. AWESOME!!!

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Marketing teaches that the whole concept of "average person" is a logical fallacy.



Go tell it to Monkey Island, King's Quest, Final Fantasy, Baldur's Gate and quite a lot of other extremely successful games the text of which could easily fill thousands of walls.

Want more modern examples? Oblivion, The Witcher 1 and 2 (and The Witcher 2 is all the rage nowadays), Mass Effect 1 and 2... How do they convey the biggest part of their lore? With books )or similar). What are books? Walls of text.

Sorry to burst a bubble, but text in videogames still isn't dead. It's actually quite far from that point, especially for telling stories, and even more side-stories and general lore.

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Marketing does not teach that. It teaches different people have different values and react to different things.
All human brains have a number of "core" features, such as a drive to reproduce, instinctual reflexs, etc. These are all products of evolution over millions of years.

If there weren't "average people" then everyone would be completely unique and nothing would appeal to a large enough group of people in order to warrant mass production.

Put another way: If there wasn't an ingrained genetic reason as to why humans enjoy games, and only a few people liked games and they all liked completely different types of games, this MMO would not exist.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I'm just tired and you obviously don't understand what I mean by repetitive.
When I'm talking about repetition I'm talking about an action that requires minimal brain activity
Pokemon has stimulus, choices, different things you fight, etc. It requires some level of thinking.

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FFXIV has stimulus, choices, and different things you fight, etc.

The Pokemon games are some of the easiest RPGs out there (PvP notwithstanding) They don't really require much thought to beat.
Besides, wasn't this whole argument about how the calmer lore quests are somehow detrimental to the overall gaming experience with the general public? I feel we have strayed from that.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Walls of texts in video games and movies can be done but why do that when it's the wrong medium? Go write a novel if you want to write one.

People don't understand the medium they are using if they make a video game with ten times as much text as there is interactivity.

/sigh

Humans are peculiar.

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Text it easier to read and understand then speech. It is also the better for memory.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

Text it easier to read and understand then speech. It is also the better for memory.

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Depends who's writing it, evidently.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

FFXIV has stimulus, choices, and different things you fight, etc.

The Pokemon games are some of the easiest RPGs out there (PvP notwithstanding) They don't really require much thought to beat.
Besides, wasn't this whole argument about how the calmer lore quests are somehow detrimental to the overall gaming experience with the general public? I feel we have strayed from that.

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this is true... I played yellow and all I did was use pikachu or charizard.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Depends who's writing it, evidently.

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it was a general statement :)

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Marketing does not teach that. It teaches different people have different values and react to different things.
All human brains have a number of "core" features, such as a drive to reproduce, instinctual reflexs, etc. These are all products of evolution over millions of years.

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And still even those features vary from person to person, in intensity, detail, orientation and so forth. But do go on oversimplifying :D

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If there weren't "average people" then everyone would be completely unique and nothing would appeal to a large enough group of people in order to warrant mass production.

Put another way: If there wasn't an ingrained genetic reason as to why humans enjoy games, and only a few people liked games and they all liked completely different types of games, this MMO would not exist.

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Do they teach to resort to meaningless strawman arguments in behavioural sciences classes?

Marketing teaches that there are many "averages", and that new "averages" can be created every day, that's the whole meaning of target. Cereating any kind of product for some abstract kind of all-encompassing "average" (including games), is something that can lead only to failure.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Walls of texts in video games and movies can be done but why do that when it's the wrong medium? Go write a novel if you want to write one.

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And says who that it's the wrong medium? Videogames were born with text, even MMORPGs. Text in videogames will never go away, as it's a foundational part of the medium.

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People don't understand the medium they are using if they make a video game with ten times as much text as there is interactivity.

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I'm quite sure that "people" from Bethesda, CDProjekt, Bioware and, mind you, even Square Enix, understand the videogame medium quite a lot better than you. :D

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Originally Posted by Gramul

FFXIV has stimulus, choices, and different things you fight, etc.

The Pokemon games are some of the easiest RPGs out there (PvP notwithstanding) They don't really require much thought to beat.
Besides, wasn't this whole argument about how the calmer lore quests are somehow detrimental to the overall gaming experience with the general public? I feel we have strayed from that.

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i wasn't talking about ffxiv or the quests. I was responding specifically to kilta asking why she enjoys the repetitive monotonous task of walking around. And i pointed out that if she likes walking, lets say from grid to emerald moss 100 times a day, then her brain functions differently than the average person.

However she pointed out she likes going around the cities to look at things for the sake of beauty and such (such as a sunset) -WHICH- as i pointed out in the original response makes what i said incorrect since that actually stimulates the brain.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

i wasn't talking about ffxiv or the quests. I was responding specifically to kilta asking why she enjoys the repetitive monotonous task of walking around. And i pointed out that if she likes walking, lets say from grid to emerald moss 100 times a day, then her brain functions differently than the average person.

However she pointed out she likes going around the cities to look at things for the sake of beauty and such (such as a sunset) -WHICH- as i pointed out in the original response makes what i said incorrect since that actually stimulates the brain.

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Ah. You're right. Looking back I must have picked up on the conversation as a continuation of our previous interaction. I must be even more tired than you. Oh well. Thank you for the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

I'm quite sure that "people" from Bethesda, CDProjekt, Bioware and, mind you, even Square Enix, understand the videogame medium quite a lot better than you. :D

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If they emphasise scrolling text-walls over interactivity, then no, they don't understand the medium.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

all those games have stimulus. If people got so much enjoyment from just walking through a repetitive area then why bother making ffxiv or zelda? Just make one zone without any actual game and sell it to people. Then they can walk around it over and over again for years and be entertained.
If what im saying is wrong, go do -just- that, and you will be rich.

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must not played pong.... Or the sims. Or Flower. all of which are highly sucessful :) and little to no "game" involed.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

If they emphasise scrolling text-walls over interactivity, then no, they don't understand the medium.

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Considering that you spend most of the time fighting monsters, walking around and doing similar things, they don't "emphasize scrolling text-walls over interactivity" in general (while it has to be noted that text and interactivity are NOT in conflict, and thinking that they are really means knowing nothing about the medium).
This doesn't change the fact that text is still the best way to convey complex lore, which is what we're talking about.

And yes, they understand the medium quite a lot better than you. That's why they're on the payroll and you're on a forum.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

must not played pong.... Or the sims. Or Flower. all of which are highly sucessful :) and little to no "game" involed.

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Don't forget Tetris and the thousands of other falling geometric object puzzle games. I'm pretty sure they all consist of one zone and repetitive actions.

Or maybe I'm just not grasping the concept due to lack of sleep.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Do they teach to resort to meaningless strawman arguments in behavioural sciences classes?

Marketing teaches that there are many "averages", and that new "averages" can be created every day, that's the whole meaning of target. Cereating any kind of product for some kind of all-encompassing "average" (including games), is something that can lead only to failure.



And says who that it's the wrong medium? Videogames were born with text, even MMORPGs. Text in videogames will never go away, as it's a foundational part of the medium.

People don't understand the medium they are using if they make a video game with ten times as much text as there is interactivity.

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I'm quite sure that "people" from Bethesda, CDProjekt, Bioware and, mind you, even Square Enix, understand the videogame medium quite a lot better than you. :D[/QUOTE]

So according to you humans aren't born with an ingrained need or propensity for the following:
-desiring pleasure or enjoyment
-desiring food
-desiring water
-personality changes at different parts of life such as puberty
-a propensity to seek vengeance when wronged
-a preference for relative gains over absolute gains (which has recently been proved in over 50 experiments worldwide)
-the ability to learn languages
-a childs need for attention
-the desire to feel wanted
-the desire to be attractive
-the desire for intercourse (in order to propagate reproduction)
-adrenaline rushes during periods of danger or with extreme pain
-an ability to become addicted to certain substances


i can go on for a long time and list things that all humans have in common.

When marketrers talk about branding to different segments, they aren't saying there are different averages. They are saying that different cultures, different time periods, different social groups, different nationalities, different languages, etc, all effect how people respond to things or what appeals to people.
But that doesn't mean that our brains don't all develop essentially the same. There are things that exist in almost all humans because that just how evolution works. Those don't really change. And a lot of marketers target those.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Considering that you spend most of the time fighting monsters, walking around and doing similar things, they don't "emphasize scrolling text-walls over interactivity".
This doesn't change the fact that text is still the best way to convey complex lore, which is what we're talking about.

And yes, they understand the medium quite a lot better than you. That's why they're on the payroll and you're on a forum.

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You say it's "the best way to convey complex lore" when in reality you just mean it's the easiest.

And yes, I agree, I am severely underpaid considering I have to tell everyone how to do their job.

FFXIV, from 1 - 50 has you fight the same 20 recolored mobs, gives you the same skills 10-15 skills and their second tiers, and the sense that you've wasted the last 8 monthsthis topic has literally become "define fun"

name 1 game mmo or otherwise that didn't have similar mobs or "reskined" mobs.. None exist. :)

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Don't forget Tetris and the thousands of other falling geometric object puzzle games. I'm pretty sure they all consist of one zone and repetitive actions.

Or maybe I'm just not grasping the concept due to lack of sleep.

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your not.
puzzle games require thinking to solve the puzzle and forethought
sims requires decision making and also things constantly happen that you have to interpret
pong you have to use reflexs in order to win

walking down a hallway requires nothing but holding a button. Your brain doesn't have anything to do except process what you see on the screen. there is nothing to think about, nothing to analyze, nothing for your brain to do, other than process your sight. Its almost like staring at a wall.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

So according to you humans aren't born with an ingrained need or propensity for the following:

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"propensity" is a mighty wide field. Between each of those elements there are millions of variables in the brain of each human, in intensity, orientation, importance, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
Mind you, many don't have some of those elements at all.

Basically, you're oversimplifying humanity in a way that, if applied to any product, (games included) would lead to a monumental failure.

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When marketrers talk about branding to different segments, they aren't saying there are different averages. They are saying that different cultures, different time periods, different social groups, different nationalities, different languages, etc, all effect how people respond to things or what appeals to people.

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Which means exactly that there are thousands of different averages (some of which bunched together to create a target,some cannot), just with a slightly different wording.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

You say it's "the best way to convey complex lore" when in reality you just mean it's the easiest.

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Nope. It's the best considering the limitations of realism.

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And yes, I agree, I am severely underpaid considering I have to tell everyone how to do their job.

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Luckily for us all, you don't "have" to, but you seem to be oddly obsessed with the idea of doing it.

azu
not everyone get addicted to things
or wants to have children.
not everyone cares for gains
and not care what they look like :)

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Originally Posted by Abriael

"propensity" is a mighty wide field. Between each of those elements there are millions of variatiables in the brain of each human, in intensity, orientation, importance, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Basically, you're oversimplifying humanity in a way that, if applied to any product, (games included) would lead to a monumental failure.



Which means exactly that there are thousands of different averages (some of which bunched together to create a target,some cannot), just with a slightly different wording.

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no. it means as a species there is one average. Humans are -predictable- on average. Thats why political systems work, thats why economic systems like capitalism work, thats why wars occur, etc.
Then you can split that large average up into many different subsections.
And then you can determine averages in those cultural or political or whatever subsections you like.
But the "average human" still exists. And that "average human" is why we are successful as a species.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

your not.
puzzle games require thinking to solve the puzzle and forethought
sims requires decision making and also things constantly happen that you have to interpret
pong you have to use reflexs in order to win

walking down a hallway requires nothing but holding a button. Your brain doesn't have anything to do except process what you see on the screen. there is nothing to think about, nothing to analyze, nothing for your brain to do, other than process your sight. Its almost like staring at a wall.

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I said the sims... as in THE Sims the video game. like the sims 3. pong don't require much skill nor does tetris... the only real game that required much of anything you said was myst. Fun yet creepy game btw....
One of my fav type of games are heavy puzzle solving mystery games Like muder on the orient, myst, LA noire, and the longest journey. Oh and that adventure game where you had to solve the murder of your character, it had a homunculus and the philosiphers stone.

I don't have any fancy credentials, but maybe Kilta and others like her who enjoy the trek through familiar places, enjoy it because they may perceive the act of reaching their destination to complete their quest as a sort of gain or reward. Whereas someone like yourself, Azury, may see it as just an obstacle between you and your destination.

I completely understand your argument that people tend to find monotonous activities boring and undesirable, but what about the difference in your morning commute on a regular day compared to a day when you actually look forward to getting to work or school for whatever reason. Personally, even though it's the same roads and same drive, I find it much more enjoyable a commute when there's something to look forward to at the end. Taking into account with all the different views of reward and gains held by different people, I can imagine that some people may even love their job that entails nothing more than pushing a button every 15 seconds for 8 hours a day. Perhaps that even perceives his job as a giant slot machine with a big jackpot at the end of 8 hours. I don't think everything has to boil down to a neurological defect, sure the game definitely is lacking in variety for quests types and story content, but I think the current quests are definitely enjoyable to some. Myself being one of them, but I have low standards and am easily amused as well maybe it's time I see a doc.. =p

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

azu
not everyone get addicted to things
or wants to have children.
not everyone cares for gains
and not care what they look like :)

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if people didnt enjoy intercourse and have kids on average humans would no longer be around
everyone gets addicted to things.... thats part of your brain. some people are better at dealing with it than others, but everyone gets addicted.
the AVERAGE person cares for relative gains. this has been scientifically proven in the past 5 years over 50 times across the planet it all different cultures
and the Average person cares what they look like because evolutionarily they subconsciously want to attract people (and at some point reproduce).

Doesn't mean everyone, but it means a very large majority does. And by large majority i mean enough to keep the worlds population growing.

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Originally Posted by Zuellni

I don't have any fancy credentials, but maybe Kilta and others like her who enjoy the trek through familiar places, enjoy it because they may perceive the act of reaching their destination to complete their quest as a sort of gain or reward. Whereas someone like yourself, Azury, may see it as just an obstacle between you and your destination.

I completely understand your argument that people tend to find monotonous activities boring and undesirable, but what about the difference in your morning commute on a regular day compared to a day when you actually look forward to getting to work or school for whatever reason. Personally, even though it's the same roads and same drive, I find it much more enjoyable a commute when there's something to look forward to at the end. Taking into account with all the different views of reward and gains held by different people, I can imagine that some people may even love their job that entails nothing more than pushing a button every 15 seconds for 8 hours a day. Perhaps that even perceives his job as a giant slot machine with a big jackpot at the end of 8 hours. I don't think everything has to boil down to a neurological defect, sure the game definitely is lacking in variety for quests types and story content, but I think the current quests are definitely enjoyable to some. Myself being one of them, but I have low standards and am easily amused as well maybe it's time I see a doc.. =p

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your point is right. Kilta asked about monotonously walking through the forest. not about walking to complete a quest. Preforming a task to gain a reward is normal.
preforming a repetitive or brainless task because you find it fun (ex. staring at a blank wall for 10 hours because you think the wall is cool) is not.

that doesn't mean its bad. it's just not how the average brain is designed. Again, someone with autism or another mental difference may experience the wall in a much different way and gain value from it. The way the human brain works isn't necessarily the right way.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

no. it means as a species there is one average. Humans are -predictable- on average. Thats why political systems work, thats why economic systems like capitalism work, thats why wars occur, etc.
Then you can split that large average up into many different subsections.
And then you can determine averages in those cultural or political or whatever subsections you like.
But the "average human" still exists. And that "average human" is why we are successful as a species.

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Basically you're saying that the "average human" is just a nondescript theoretical concept that doesn't really exist, has absolutely no practical application, and has no relevance to the gaming field (or any practical field actually) whatsoever.

So basically basing any form of storytelling on that nondescript, theoretical average human would be a complete failure.

And that's why gaming companies employ writers (supported by marketers) to write the stories of their games and (Thankfully) they don't employ behavioural scientists or other kinds of similar brain moles :D

We can agree on that, yeah.

In any case, time for me to go to work, I have some actual specific targets to work with, luckily there is no "average", or I wouldn't have a job.

I stopped doing the main story line quest beucase it was simple and boring, also the Archer and Fisher quest line was also very boring. I see alot of post of people trying to defend them. I've come to the conclusion that these people must lead a boring life in real-life. The kind of person who would watch university challenge or countdown. :/

Not to sound silly but I do find enjoyment looking at a wall but I think that is more or less my ADD. I pretty much observe all the cracks and pores the paint has, How that color is made, how said wall was painted. Like I said I find my own enjoyment in even the most mundane things. Like clicky pens. I like the sound a clicky pen makes and I enjoy spam pressing the trigger.

I know alot of people who do not want to have kids. I know I don't. I do not care what I look like, nor care to use my looks to attracked a boyfriend. I do not really care about money (only if i need it to pay a bil) I have yet been addicted to anything. Like vicoden is supposedly the most addicting drug for pain, I took it once it fked with my heart and never took it again. Same for ritlin, (which is speed) i hate taking it. I hate taking pills, smoking and I rarely drink.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

I do not critizied things in ffxiv because i could care less. I play to have fun and I'm not overly picky. If i find something fun, I will do it. If i find something not fun I just do not do it. I do not need a gane catered to me. If i do not like or enjoy an mmo i just do not play it. I did this For WoW Aion and DCUO. And the f2p ones I tried out.

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This game hardly caters to anyone at this point.