DPS Rankings

I've said it multiple times: Monk position checks are more frequent but way less important.

A failed Monk position loses ~40-50 potency. A failed Dragoon position loses 170-180 potency. BLM mobility constraints have a similar magnitude of penalties.

Monks have 1/4th - 1/3rd of the penalty of failing a position.

Hence a Monk's positioning demands are 'relatively' equal to that of a DRG or BLM. Tbh I don't know what the exact DPS loss is for a BLM for every movement. At a glance, a half GCD step costs half a Fire, which is 150*1.8/2 = 135 potency without getting fancy with the math.

Edit: Updated my original post to reflect a more "moderate" rating for positioning demands. Personally I'm biased because I'm annoyed by not being able to bunny hop 24x7 on a BLM.

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Originally Posted by Aleph_One

it would be wrong to infer that because of the aforementioned relation, there isn't a meaningful difference between two.

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The fact that they can have different labels means there is a "difference". However, for the purpose of my summary I used the abstract superset to refer to the concepts, because the specific difference was meaningless when we're at the level of "x class does high/med/low single target and AOE dps".

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

If a DRG misses positioning requirements, they wasted a GCD to basically do an auto attack without gaining any of the additional effects or allowing the combo to continue. And three of our abilities lock us in place after executing them. It's far more punishing to mess up on DRG than it is on MNK.

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70 Potency and 80 potency vs 100% crit + 40 potency + 40 potency or 50 potency + 40 potency + 40 potency or 100% crit + 5% crit + 40 potency or 50 potency + 40 potency + 40 potency or 50 potency + 40 potency or 100% crit + 40 potency or yeah I am bored now...

Clearly Drg are super hard and everyone should bow down to you for being in the correct position for both of your attacks.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

70 Potency and 80 potency

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Actually, you have to restart the attack. You take a penalty of [average DRG rotation PP GCD - failed PP GCD]. This is ~110*2.5 - 100 = 175. This reflects the fact that you executed a 100 potency attack instead of a "normal DRG rotation".

You get some bonus residual issues like flawed HT/DE/CT/PH uptime in addition. These errors will add up to around ~10p.

A Monk penalty on a missed position is generally 40-50p.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

The fact that they can have different labels means there is a "difference". However, for the purpose of my summary I used the abstract superset to refer to the concepts, because the specific difference was meaningless when we're at the level of "x class does high/med/low single target and AOE dps".

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Fair enough. =]

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Actually, you have to restart the attack. You take a penalty of [average DRG rotation PP GCD - failed PP GCD]. This is ~110*2.5 - 100 = 175. This reflects the fact that you executed a 100 potency attack instead of a "normal DRG rotation".

You get some bonus residual issues like flawed HT/DE/CT/PH uptime in addition. These errors will add up to around ~10p.

A Monk penalty on a missed position is generally 40-50p.

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keep in mind drg only needs to do HT and ID once every 20 or so seconds. monks are constantly using positional abilities, unlike dragoon which uses them every now and then. so a monk has many more opportunities in which they should be positioned correctly which can add up if they aren't doing so.

edit: i see you brought monk up from low to moderate and brought blm from high down to moderate. but what positional constraints are you talking about for blm?

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Originally Posted by Zigkid3

edit: i see you brought monk up from low to moderate and brought blm from high down to moderate. but what positional constraints are you talking about for blm?

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BLMs have a pervasive and constant positional constraint of not moving to deal more damage.

Some people apparently get picky and like to call this mobility. I prefer to place mobility under the broader category of positioning.

They probably don't realize that there are a lot of positions in the fight that will RNG reduce their damage output. As a general Titan example, if you stand behind or in front of another range player (or in line with a melee player), you double the chances of a Landslide in your direction, forcing you to move. Proper positioning for a BLM in this situation will eliminate the need to move, increasing DPS. This basic concept is applicable to all mechanics that will or may require movement on the part of the caster.

I just hit things

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

BLMs have a pervasive and constant positional constraint of not moving to deal more damage.

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So they just sit wherever they'd like until forced to move.

I think we are getting some things confused here. Needed means it can't be complete without. Recommended is what should be used for the best results in terms of easiness. WP speed runs don't need any one class/job, but there is a recommended composition that should be used for an easy speed run. Top DPS class/job isn't based on what one person was able to do because the stars aligned and the perfect condition enabled it. Top dps class/job is judged by how competitive the dps is when even the worst player uses it. This is why Bard and Blackmage top these charts. A bad player dps'ing with a bard or blackmage can still produce decent/better dps compared to bad player playing any other dps class. This is why FOTM are so popular. Now I'm not saying you have like this but unfortunately it is how things currently work.

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Originally Posted by Zigkid3

So they just sit wherever they'd like until forced to move.

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Similar to how Monks kind of sit in one spot for 86% of their attacks.

Except ranged doesn't need to worry about back/flank or being directly on the boss, they can stand literally where ever they want until forced to move unlike melee.

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Originally Posted by Zigkid3

Except ranged doesn't need to worry about back/flank or being directly on the boss, they can stand literally where ever they want until forced to move unlike melee.

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When is melee forced to move?

When AoEs happen.

When is ranged forced to move?

When AoEs happen.

Of course, the only real difference here is melee go back to where they were, and ranged for the most part can stop where they stop.

But really, the only reason moving for melee is a problem is buffs dropping.

Aside from that, they are not penalized for movement as much as a BLM is.

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Originally Posted by Zigkid3

Except ranged doesn't need to worry about back/flank or being directly on the boss, they can stand literally where ever they want until forced to move unlike melee.

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They can stand literally wherever they want if they want to reduce their DPS.

Monks can stand literally wherever they want if they want to reduce their DPS as well.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

They can stand literally wherever they want if they want to reduce their DPS.

Monks can stand literally wherever they want if they want to reduce their DPS as well.

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Is there a specific location they should be standing at? at 20 yalms, 25 yalms? at a 45 degree angle from the boss? or just as long as they're within targeting range?

Some people have been posting spreadsheets parsing dps in fights and it appears that all classes have a very similar dps rating.. in bcoil. I believe that BRD and BLM serve a great purpose in raid, even though bard will get nerfed, the reason people take bards is also for their support role. < This will not change if they do less damage, because their song keeps other classes DPS at high rate. BLM has great AOE utility and burst damage in tight situations, where an add needs to absolutely die, one can combo a few procs. SMN has battle rez and a great sustained damage output which is very good in fights without phases, someone else mentioned this, though many say that melee dps is lacking, they both do the same amount of damage and they also have debuffs which increase overall raid damage. There is no true best dps IMHO. Though i will say that SMN, BLM and BRD bring more to the table as far as raid utility.

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Originally Posted by Zigkid3

Except ranged doesn't need to worry about back/flank or..

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I am not trying to argue with you, i agree you lose a lot of DPS having to move but, you under estimate the amount of dps a BLM loses when they have to move as well. If i move on the off chance that i do not have fire or thunder proc up, i am forced to scathe, which is terrible. You can use abilities while moving around the boss, that still goes off while running. On the off chance that you need to move back away from boss you lose dps. Also please understand a BLM will need to move scathe, then recast, hopefully not re-apply astral fire but, sometimes timing is bad and if we do have to re apply astral now you are talking about a 2 seconds to move 3.5sec hard cast fire 3. I believe this is equivalent to you losing GL stacks. IMHO. These fights are all built this way on purpose, if you could just stand there with 100% GL all of the time, the game wouldn't be challenging or fun.

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Originally Posted by Zigkid3

Is there a specific location they should be standing at? at 20 yalms, 25 yalms? at a 45 degree angle from the boss? or just as long as they're within targeting range?

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Yes. They need to stand not in line with the other range players in the group, outside of PBAOE mechanics where possible. Depending on the position of the other players in the fight, this creates specific zones of position where it is optimal for BLM/SMNs to stand because they will have to move less as a result.

The simplest example of this is "do not stand near other range so you have a lower chance to have to move from plumes".

Another rather simple example of this is T2 rot.

For T4 there are several specific positions the caster needs to be in so they move less as a result. These are primarily related to PBAE positioning, but changes per phase.

Different fights feature these constraints to different degrees and in different ways.

Melee DPS generally spend life reacting to positioning constraints. Oh no, the boss is casting! Move! Range DPS with castbars tend to have to predict positioning constraints before they happen -- or else lose more DPS.

AoE's effect everyone. If an AoE goes out, melee needs to move out, then when it's done move back in or if it's a lasting AoE have to find a way around or have the tank move the boss. If an AoE goes out on range, they just simply move out.

It's also interesting that BLM was originally listed as high positional demand (before being dropped to moderate by easymodex) while BRD was listed at none. I can see the difference between the two is that BLM has cast times while BRD doesn't, so BLM is obviously harder on bosses that throw AoE's out often that require you to move out. but that gap still seems much larger than it should be between BRD and BLM. BRD is none, but BLM should be low comparitevly. aside from cast times, are there any other positional requirements for the huge ranking difference strictly between BRD and BLM?

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Originally Posted by Zigkid3

AoE's effect everyone. If an AoE goes out, melee needs to move out, then when it's done move back in

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Melee tend to keep attacking.

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If an AoE goes out on range, they just simply move out.

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And automatically lose DPS because they have to move at all. Melee have to meet additional conditions before they actually start to lose DPS from moving.

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It's also interesting that BLM was originally listed as high positional demand (before being dropped to moderate by easymodex)

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Yes, because I want to press my spacebar all the time and I can't do that on a BLM, so I rated BLM as higher than, in retrospect, it objectively deserved.

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I can see the difference between the two is that BLM has cast times while BRD doesn't, so BLM is obviously harder on bosses that throw AoE's out often that require you to move out.

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Do you play a BLM? The cast time is basically ... a big deal?

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aside from cast times, are there any other positional requirements for the huge ranking difference between BRD and BLM?

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Aside from never being able to move a single pixel without losing DPS unless other conditions (generally RNG procs) are met?

An FYI, just because majority of Monk abilities are performed on the flank doesnt mean the Mnk doesnt have to actually move to get the flank attacks in. For example a lot of bosses will turn around and do AOE in a certain other direction (Titan and landslide for example) requiring you to move to the new flank of the boss even though you were just on the bosses flank. This happens fairly often on a good number of bosses.

It really doesn't matter very much. You lose some damage but you can still build up/maintain your Greased Lightning Buff regardless of those positioning requirements being met.

It's also been mentioned like, 47257289407297 times in this thread. Also, that flank miss is more damaging to a DRG than it is to a MNK.

heavy thrust once every 20 seconds vs. ~9 positional abilities used through out 20 seconds.....okay.

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Originally Posted by Zigkid3

heavy thrust once every 20 seconds vs. ~9 positional abilities used through out 20 seconds.....okay.

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That is a pretty retarded comparison.

If you miss 9 flanks in 20 seconds you probably shouldn't play monk. Also: all your buffs are still in place, and your rotation doesn't change.

But if you miss that one HT you're SCREWED as a DRG because now your tight rotation is now in shambles.

Say also that because of lag in buff timing, you didn't realize you missed (because most players dance at the 5/7oclock positions for easier transitions), you didn't realize and started TTT or IDC.

Now you're double screwed, waste 2 GCDs, your rotation's completely off, you have to restart HT, your IDC is going to fall off, and you cannot actually filler with anything because DRG has only one viable filler, and it is a dps LOSS, and it screws up your rotation even more.

Did I also mention that jumps suck and easily screw up positionals, as well as cause unavoidable GCD lag.

As for Monk, it doesn't matter at all if you mess up a button, you LITERALLY cannot screw yourself out of your rotation. You are LOCKED into it, free to filler at any time, free to delay your rotation.

I can't believe how anyone can say monk is harder than DRG.

I HATED DRG because the rotation is so clunky, its not fun to play at all for me.

Monk is FUN, and fluid, but no way in hell is it harder.

Sure it matters. If you are not moving you will lose damage over time and it builds up. If you are moving to the new flank and back that is two potential chances to miss a positional attack. Also he wasn't arguing that one is going to miss 9 flanks which is a "retarded" interpretation of what he meant. His point is that with 9 flank attacks much more likely to miss a few over 1 every 20 seconds which you know is a must hit and thus you should be taking all the care in the world to hit it.

All this thread is now is a pissing contest between two groups of people that each claim their class is more difficult XD

edit: sorry not trying to be insulting, I just thought it was kind of funny :)

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Say also that because of lag in buff timing, you didn't realize you missed (because most players dance at the 5/7oclock positions for easier transitions), you didn't realize and started TTT or IDC.

Now you're double screwed, waste 2 GCDs, your rotation's completely off, you have to restart HT, your IDC is going to fall off, and you cannot actually filler with anything because DRG has only one viable filler, and it is a dps LOSS, and it screws up your rotation even more.

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And if you keep just doing your rotation without realizing that your buff didn't go off then you shouldn't be playing DRG either.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I can't believe how anyone can say monk is harder than DRG.

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Originally Posted by Teeko

All this thread is now is a pissing contest between two groups of people that each claim their class is more difficult XD

edit: sorry not trying to be insulting, I just thought it was kind of funny :)

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I'm not even saying MNK is harder then DRG at all. in fact i never said it anywhere in this thread, I even said they're both similar in terms of difficulty. The only thing im arguing is that monk has more positional demand because that's the entire play style of the class.

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And if you keep just doing your rotation without realizing that your buff didn't go off then you shouldn't be playing DRG either.

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That's not the point. Dragoons have a very set rotation to keep up all their buffs/debuffs. If they miss a flanked heavy thrust, then they will need to reapply it, which uses up a global and leads to Disembowel falling off before their next Full Thrust, making them need to reapply it early, causing them to clip Chaos Thrust, etc. etc. From what I've seen, monks don't have this problem because they can fit abilities in between their 3-form combos (edit: they can also mix and match their combos).

Edit 2: My bad, apparently monks have it even easier. A non-flanked Twin Snakes/Snap Punch still applies the buff. GG.

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Originally Posted by Teeko

All this thread is now is a pissing contest between two groups of people that each claim their class is more difficult XD

edit: sorry not trying to be insulting, I just thought it was kind of funny :)

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Honestly, like most MMOs, I don't think any class is difficult in this game. However, it feels like a number of Dragoons in this thread are on some epeen mission to prove to the world that Dragoon > Monk in difficulty because the community had at some point developed the perception that Monk is the hardest class to play. I personally think they are about equal.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Honestly, like most MMOs, I don't think any class is difficult in this game. However, it feels like a number of Dragoons in this thread are on some epeen mission to prove to the world that Dragoon > Monk in difficulty because the community had at some point developed the perception that Monk is the hardest class to play. I personally think they are about equal.

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we have a similar view (about equal) however what im seeing is the opposite. Im seeing dragoons saying "it hurts us considerably as well" in that each positional hurts about 3-4 times as much, while they acknowledge monks have positional checks 5x as often. then im seeing monks bust in and say "nu uh! it hurts us 100x more, we are by far harder to play than dragoons and mages!".

this all feels relevant to me since my 3 most played are drg monk and blm :P.
made most acutely aware of positions as a dragoon. boss turns at the wrong time, you have to stop EVERYTHING and fix it. sometimes its higher dps to forget heavy thrust and finish it when the boss comes down. only 5 positional checks a minute, but you have a more difficult rotation to make up for it.
as a monk i dont feel near as hurt by a turn here or there. As a monk your entire game plan is to move into the right spot, but this is made up for the fact that your rotation is mindless.
blm has the 2nd easiest rotation, but is hit the hardest by any given forced move. As a blm youre forced to think ahead (as easymode tried to say) to minimize movements. Nothing is worse than casting a 3s spell then at the last moment having to move, wasting 2.5s of DPS time, a hit harder than monks or dragoons face. if monks have 25 checks a minute to a dragoons 5, blackmages more than likely only have 1 or 2.

all and all, none of them are really that difficult. which is harder 110% depends on the fight.

I'm just going to say that for me, Dragoons are more frustrating than difficult because their skill design isn't fluid at all.

Monks have skills built around the concept of always being in motion which, when you get into the mindset of playing that class, becomes simpler due to muscle memory and movement pattern recognitions.

Dragoons are built stupidly in that their class skills are a poor mishmash of stationary skills and positional skills, and then suddenly their job skills basically paralyze your movement for a good 3-4 seconds which throws everything out of sync.