Dear SE: We do not care if FFXIV is a MMO. We want it to be a Final Fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

why don't just make it an MMO with Final Fantasy features?

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Because Final Fantasy isn't what you call a feature.. -_-

Final Fantasy is already the main title, hence why Cairdeas is suggesting that they focus on making Final Fantasy what it is supposed to be, with the features of an MMO.

It all comes down to what game are we playing. Final Fantasy? or just any old MMO?

Figure it out.

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Originally Posted by viion

Moogles, where ma Moogle!!

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This. D:

It would be nice to see some random Moogle houses around Eorzea, like some mini cave or hole that you could enter via a examination icon or something ^____^ or id just like to see more of them, spread out here and there, like a city moogle for example.

Maybe Stilzkin type of moogle that could work as a mailsystem/mailbox thing. :3

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Originally Posted by Nuru

It all comes down to what game are we playing. Final Fantasy? or just any old MMO?

Figure it out.

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An MMORPG with the final fantasy name stapled on it. What do I win?

TERRIBLE IDEA.

It is an MMO and, as such, should fulfill its role as part of the genre. An MMO is a game where multiple people come together and affect the world (either through the economy, or through community, or through building and shaping the world - think ArcheAge and other Sandbox MMOs).

An MMO is not a linear path with 4320428402 Final Fantasy paraphernalia and memorabelia jumping out at you 12381243123 times a day to remind you just how unimaginative SE are these days.

But hey, at least they're recycling!

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

TERRIBLE IDEA.

It is an MMO and, as such, should fulfill its role as part of the genre. An MMO is a game where multiple people come together and affect the world (either through the economy, or through community, or through building and shaping the world - think ArcheAge and other Sandbox MMOs).

An MMO is not a linear path with 4320428402 Final Fantasy paraphernalia and memorabelia jumping out at you 12381243123 times a day to remind you just how unimaginative SE are these days.

But hey, at least they're recycling!

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So Genre is more important to you than the entire idea of what Final Fantasy is since the first Final Fantasy made?

Honestly, a Final Fantasy MMORPG without any Final Fantasy Elements is just another MMORPG. There are way too many Original MMORPGs out there, whereas most people that play FFXI and FFXIV are fans of the Final Fantasy Series, and not just fans of MMORPGs.

There needs not to be any arguments here, as this is how things are. Final Fantasy fans are demanding this game to be a Final Fantasy, and I may shoot myself for bringing this up, but this is also the reason why they do not want to see Chat Bubbles, Jump, or Glowing Weapons. Its just that the franchise is known a certain way and nobody wants Final fantasy to disappear into the crowd.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

So Genre is more important to you than the entire idea of what Final Fantasy is since the first Final Fantasy made?

Honestly, a Final Fantasy MMORPG without any Final Fantasy Elements is just another MMORPG. There are way too many Original MMORPGs out there, whereas most people that play FFXI and FFXIV are fans of the Final Fantasy Series, and not just fans of MMORPGs.

There needs not to be any arguments here, as this is how things are. Final Fantasy fans are demanding this game to be a Final Fantasy, and I may shoot myself for bringing this up, but this is also the reason why they do not want to see Chat Bubbles, Jump, or Glowing Weapons. Its just that the franchise is known a certain way and nobody wants Final fantasy to disappear into the crowd.

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I like the final fantasy atmopshere, but the atmosphere shouldn't determine the gameplay, which is the whole reason why I opt to play an MMO for. You can guarantee most would leave if this game became a classical FF with multiplayer option.

Okay, so who wants random encounter screen effects that teleport you to an isntance where you fight a mob? Raise your hands.

Sorry, but maybe that would be engaging for a handful of people, but I would hate that, speaking for myself. I would hate it so much I would troll this forum for the rest of my life.

This is an MMO first and foremost, just like most FF games are single-player games first and foremost.

As a limit break type thing I am sure they are going to add, there was a post way back when talking about possibilities of bringing a 2hour like ability to the game.

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

Okay, so who wants random encounter screen effects that teleport you to an isntance where you fight a mob? Raise your hands.

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FFXI/FFXII already did away with that "tradition"

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Originally Posted by Proxx

FFXI/FFXII already did away with that "tradition"

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Exactly, and FFXI did away with that tradition because... wait for it...

IT WAS AN MMO FIRST AND FOREMOST

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

I like the final fantasy atmopshere, but the atmosphere shouldn't determine the gameplay, which is the whole reason why I opt to play an MMO for. You can guarantee most would leave if this game became a classical FF with multiplayer option.

Okay, so who wants random encounter screen effects that teleport you to an isntance where you fight a mob? Raise your hands.

Sorry, but maybe that would be engaging for a handful of people, but I would hate that, speaking for myself. I would hate it so much I would troll this forum for the rest of my life.

This is an MMO first and foremost, just like most FF games are single-player games first and foremost.

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I can agree with you about atmosphere should not determine the gameplay, and yes, people would leave if it ever came down to being a FF with Multiplayer option.

However, most of what is going on is just trying to change the atmosphere. Rather, we should be focusing on the core mechanics. The battle system has been addressed, but what else can we change to make this game more enjoyable? What would you like to be able to do (instead of just being able to see)? If you get what I mean.

Basically, when a newbie starts the game, I'd rather them be "Yes this is going to be a great Final Fantasy" rather than be introduced into a world and be like "wtf?" *Checks box Title* "...what game is this again..?"

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Originally Posted by Nuru

I can agree with you about atmosphere should not determine the gameplay, and yes, people would leave if it ever came down to being a FF with Multiplayer option.

However, most of what is going on is just trying to change the atmosphere. Rather, we should be focusing on the core mechanics. The battle system has been addressed, but what else can we change to make this game more enjoyable? What would you like to be able to do (instead of just being able to see)? If you get what I mean.

Basically, when a newbie starts the game, I'd rather them be "Yes this is going to be a great Final Fantasy" rather than be introduced into a world and be like "wtf?" *Checks box Title* "...what game is this again..?"

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Well I agree to the effect.

But when people live in their FF-only bubble, then they fail to shed any valuable insight into the development of an MMO.

It is best to have an awareness of both the MMO genre and the FF series, as opposed to merely focussing on one. And when I say MMO genre I don't mean WoW and others like it, I mean classic MMOs like Ultima and Lineage which are real MMOs (as opposed to entrance lobbies). An entrance lobby is basically all that the MMOs of today are.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

So Genre is more important to you than the entire idea of what Final Fantasy is since the first Final Fantasy made?

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This is where opinions differ. I've looked at FF games as just RPGs for close to the 20 years I've been gaming. Did they have good stories? Indeed. Systems that bent formulas without breaking them? Sure. Were they entertaining during the time they came out? Definitely. Did they at any point become this entity that would make you say "this is Final Fantasy"? No.

To me it's been simply a name. I've just liked the work Squaresoft did with the games. Things like the above quote only support my joke/claim that prior to the mess of XIV's launch, Square could put dog poo in a bag, staple the final fantasy name on it and it would sell like hot cakes based on the name alone.

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Honestly, a Final Fantasy MMORPG without any Final Fantasy Elements is just another MMORPG. There are way too many Original MMORPGs out there, whereas most people that play FFXI and FFXIV are fans of the Final Fantasy Series, and not just fans of MMORPGs.

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The idea of appealing to niche markets became less appealing when someone out there had the idea of designing games around a wider demographic. Don't think I'm talking about just Blizzard, either, because Nintendo did the exact same thing with the Wii.

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There needs not to be any arguments here, as this is how things are. Final Fantasy fans are demanding this game to be a Final Fantasy, and I may shoot myself for bringing this up, but this is also the reason why they do not want to see Chat Bubbles, Jump, or Glowing Weapons. Its just that the franchise is known a certain way and nobody wants Final fantasy to disappear into the crowd.

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You're not shooting yourself in the foot, believe it or not. At least, to me this simply says that some people will forego the implications brought on by things like jump affecting the game (jumping effectively requires smoother character movement, which would ripple and add some emphasis on positioning and actual movement when fighting enemies) for the sake of having the game be different from the other games of the same genre and same era of design.

I'm not asking them to make it a non-mmo.
I don't know where this came from. The title of the thread is "We do not care" meaning. Wether it was an MMO or Not. We want more Final Fantasy Elements (FFE). The MMO elements already present and planned can stay. What we want, especially once the MMO Elements have been polished up (IE Battle System, etc.) is the feeling of nostalgia when you first encounter an FFE and it quirks a smile to your face and go "Yeah, its a Final Fantasy."

Wanna know what those elements were in some of the past FF's?

FF3- The Namingway Screen. Its up front and reminds you directly of Final Fantasy 1. It gives you the chance to name all 4 of the characters that you will be controlling through this adventure. Admittedly this is hard to introduce into a MMO so the Namingway as it is now is fine.

FF4- The opening Airship Scene. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJyGjJXAWXE This scene was epic at the time. It was doing things other games couldn't do at the time(3d World map travel) amongst other things.

FF5 - CHOCOBOS. The first are allows you to ride a chocobo right from the start of the game. So awesome. Then the return of the job system from FFIII.

FF6 - This was the first game to focus heavily on Summons. The other FF's had them up to now but this was the first to truely focus around them as a plot point. It became heavily popular with all the successive releases after VII.

FF7 - UI, Magic, theme and many other elements culminated into things like the Materia System, an Epic Story, and again the Crystals show up (As Materia).

FF8. A return to Summons being a big part of the story, so big they make the story half confusing later in the game when its revealed that using Summons is why no one can remember anything important. Like that everyone was from the same Orphanage...

FF9 - A Return of the Crystals and a very strict job per character but reflecting the Jobs from past FF's. A Thief, A Black Mage, a Knight etc. This truely was an epic Final Fantasy.

the list goes on and on.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Added Mini Game Area to the list (Something like gold Saucer)

Caerdias please put temples on the list, FFXII is my favorite FF game and Temples in it were amazing! I would love for FFXIV to fill in those large maps with some temples here and there.

I not We. If I could downvote this thread I would.

/post+10

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

I not We. If I could downvote this thread I would.

/post+10

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Doesn't get more lighthearted than this thread and you wanna down vote it? its funny because if I can ban you I would.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

LOL. Please. Every Final Fantasy has atleast one feature that is new and unique to gaming as a whole and then afterwards relegated to Final Fantasy History.

FFXIII had the Paradigm Shift. FF7 had Materia, FF8 had GF Junctioning,

Right now FFXIV's only claim to fame in this field was the Armoury(Good) and Guildleves(Bad) but Guildleves many people consider it a bit of a failure.

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Erm no they dont, they have had 2 features wish have evolved over time, the job system and the Esper/materia system, wish was born in VI then upgraded in VII and then we had VIII, is the same system

Well and XIII but who cares about that garbage

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Originally Posted by Ostia

Erm no they dont, they have had 2 features wish have evolved over time, the job system and the Esper/materia system, wish was born in VI then upgraded in VII and then we had VIII, is the same system

Well and XIII but who cares about that garbage

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I care about that garbage. I don't quite agree that every FF game has added something revolutionary but every FF game has been unique to the one before it and that is why FFXIV is so different than FFXI because its SE's trademark to change things up from game to game. Hardly any one FF title is like another and each title brings something new to the table. Mainly this is done through a new battle system imo as its the easiest one...little things always make a return like summons, chocobos, etc. And FYI its which not "wish".

-quote cairdeas' post here-

The one thing which I've noticed that runs through all FF's is Crystals. I made a huge post about it somewhere (will take me ages to find, it's buried forever in tens of pages of threads), but all Final Fantasy's have had some kind of Crystal motif, or at least a presence of them to obtain treasure/spells, as a plot device, or a tool to summon or cast magic, or just as a save tool. Fromm FFI to FFXIV, Crystals have appeared in many forms and appearances, but are still there.

So if you want the very basics of the game to be back...well, we already have our shards and crystals, some used in storyline plots. :D

I agree with having classic battle menus. They obviously don't have to have those old-fashioned "mickey mouse hands," as someone else so gallantly mentioned before, they would probably look new and fancy. But, I would like to see an implementation of menus.

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Originally Posted by toshimoog

I agree with having classic battle menus. They obviously don't have to have those old-fashioned "mickey mouse hands," as someone else so gallantly mentioned before, they would probably look new and fancy. But, I would like to see an implementation of menus.

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Someone explain to me what this means exactly please? the best I can see them giving us are skins for what we already have, you don't just "implement" a menu if it has no use, so maybe with the menus we already have they can give us optional skins but how do they implement a menu that looks like the old games exactly and for what reason, in case I'm not understanding this correctly?

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Originally Posted by Mack

Someone explain to me what this means exactly please? the best I can see them giving us are skins for what we already have, you don't just "implement" a menu if it has no use, so maybe with the menus we already have they can give us optional skins but how do they implement a menu that looks like the old games exactly and for what reason, in case I'm not understanding this correctly?

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I'm talking about the Battle UI. Instead of having action bars like WoW and Guild Wars, let us use menus to battle, like in every other Final Fantasy game in the series.

Attack (probably would end up being auto-attack or not be in the list)
Magic
Other Skills
Items

And then have those options open up the list of skills we have or whatever. I would be excited if they put this in.

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Originally Posted by toshimoog

I'm talking about the Battle UI. Instead of having action bars like WoW and Guild Wars, let us use menus to battle, like in every other Final Fantasy game in the series.

Attack (probably would end up being auto-attack or not be in the list)
Magic
Other Skills
Items

And then have those options open up the list of skills we have or whatever. I would be excited if they put this in.

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I don't think this idea would work for the simple case that this game requires you (or will require you), especially in party play, to be on top of your game and acting quickly. FFXI had menus, nobody used them at all, everyone and EVERYONE resorted to macros. This is a great idea from a nostalgic standpoint, I agree, but from a practical standpoint no way this is good. I find the ability bar more convenient as it kind of alleviates the use of macros and its straight to the point.

In FFXII for example, which used the menu approach, it had everything buried inside different categories so half the time you would completely stick to something convenient...however in FFXII you had the convenince of playing solo and you had robots alongside you who did thier job pretty well because they were quick and efficient (if you gambit'ed them properly).

What most seem to be too short-sighted to see is that FF tradition, is innovation. What we mean by we want classic FF is not we want copy/paste features. We want features that are based on the tried, the true, and the loved. And then expounded upon.

The two points I glean from this thread are 1. Give XIV individuality by making it more like a FF and 2. How would you (the reader) do that." Stop bashing just cause you disagree and state benefits for your point of view so the conversation doesn't go around in circles and all eleventy-six pages of it all look the freakin same.

Edit* Oh yes and my contribution would be more dynamic storytelling. In a lot of FFXIs missions you were kinda dealing under the table and learning all sides of the story as you progressed so you weren't naive or biased and it added a lot of depth. In short: Ergodic story telling.

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Originally Posted by Mack

I don't think this idea would work for the simple case that this game requires you (or will require you), especially in party play, to be on top of your game and acting quickly. FFXI had menus, nobody used them at all, everyone and EVERYONE resorted to macros. This is a great idea from a nostalgic standpoint, I agree, but from a practical standpoint no way this is good. I find the ability bar more convenient as it kind of alleviates the use of macros and its straight to the point.

In FFXII for example, which used the menu approach, it had everything buried inside different categories so half the time you would completely stick to something convenient...however in FFXII you had the convenince of playing solo and you had robots alongside you who did thier job pretty well because they were quick and efficient (if you gambit'ed them properly).

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I guess that's true, but I just wish the action bar system wasn't so limiting. Setting skills to the action bars with AP costs, especially on CON gets kind of annoying because the game limits us on our own spells and what we are allowed to use at any one time.

I agree that the action bars are pretty much the same setup as the macro bar from FFXI. That makes sense. I think the main problem is that this is a controller-based game. I was just thinking it would be easier just to make a chart of all your spells to where you can see them all at once without having to scroll through 3 different rows of actions, but click on anything with the mouse, but that would be time consuming with the controller I suppose. idk, I guess my main issue is the AP limitations. They shouldn't limit you on how many spells you can put up from a single class, but then there's the issue about cross-class skill using, and etc etc etc. I don't think we should be allowed to use Lancer/etc. abilities as a Conjurer or whatever, but a lot of people like that feature. I'm at a loss lol

Appealing to a niche market isn't going to make FFXIV successful. Instead of picking one or the other like so many people seem to insist on, why can't we have an MMORPG that is also a Final Fantasy? You won't see me playing this game if it turns into an online Final Fantasy, past Final Fantasy games have been designed around single player content. You can be a lot more innovative when you don't have to worry about damage formulas, threat tables, skill balancing to make sure each class is equally viable, etc. This game should be a MMO first, Final Fantasy second. It should be both.

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Originally Posted by toshimoog

I guess that's true, but I just wish the action bar system wasn't so limiting. Setting skills to the action bars with AP costs, especially on CON gets kind of annoying because the game limits us on our own spells and what we are allowed to use at any one time.

I agree that the action bars are pretty much the same setup as the macro bar from FFXI. That makes sense. I think the main problem is that this is a controller-based game. I was just thinking it would be easier just to make a chart of all your spells to where you can see them all at once without having to scroll through 3 different rows of actions, but click on anything with the mouse, but that would be time consuming with the controller I suppose. idk, I guess my main issue is the AP limitations. They shouldn't limit you on how many spells you can put up from a single class, but then there's the issue about cross-class skill using, and etc etc etc. I don't think we should be allowed to use Lancer/etc. abilities as a Conjurer or whatever, but a lot of people like that feature. I'm at a loss lol

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Have you ever played Mass Effect by any chance? what they should do for the PS3 version of the game which will obviously make use of the controller more often is make the round menu thingy that ME uses - you would basically set abilities to a round menu which would be accessed by holding R2 for instance and moving the analog stick in the direction of the ability and pressing the action button.

BTW as for limiting your abilities as a Conjurer I heard this mentioned yesterday too and someone said that they get the impression from the latest producer letter that they are going to allow us to use all our classes' abilities after the battle changes (I'm not 100% sure on this but it could be true because Yoshi mentioned that abilities will be automatically equipped when you get them, although I interpreted it to be different but who know you might get your wish).

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Originally Posted by Mack

Have you ever played Mass Effect by any chance? what they should do for the PS3 version of the game which will obviously make use of the controller more often is make the round menu thingy that ME uses - you would basically set abilities to a round menu which would be accessed by holding R2 for instance and moving the analog stick in the direction of the ability and pressing the action button.

BTW as for limiting your abilities as a Conjurer I heard this mentioned yesterday too and someone said that they get the impression from the latest producer letter that they are going to allow us to use all our classes' abilities after the battle changes (I'm not 100% sure on this but it could be true because Yoshi mentioned that abilities will be automatically equipped when you get them, although I interpreted it to be different but who know you might get your wish).

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That'd be pretty cool

*Cough* I for one used menus in XI 95% of the time. The only time I used Macros was for pulling and assisting.

I just feel more comfortable with those menus in XI because after a while you get muscle memory reflexive speed for them available and you can hit them up really quickly.

But then I played on a controller didn't matter if I was on PC, PS2, PS3 or Xbox 360 when I played.

Don't forget solo options....

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Originally Posted by Cxplorer

Don't forget solo options....

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Here's a solo option:

http://www.amazon.com/Final-Fantasy-...6041759&sr=8-1

One thing you forgot that defines Final Fantasy (and in my opinion is one of the most standout things that is and has been in every single FF game) is crystals. Which are in FFXIV so...there ya go. They got that. Crystals=Final Fantasy. Even if they aren't called Crystals...they're there and they're usually vitally important to the plot.

Was thinking about this for awhile after running into this thread earlier, and one large aspect you notice different about XIV is the lack of contrast, primarily contrast in colors used for the environment and contrast in opposing factions.

The colors aspect is pretty straightforward: the number/shades of different neutral browns used in XIV is astonishing. Detailed though the game may be, there's simply very little that stands out, and one thing about so many FF's in the past was the usage of bright colors, on characters and monsters especially. Even when they used dark zones, they actively made them dark, not neutral, and so they stood out that much more against the bright player characters.

FFXIV does realistic graphics pretty well, but because of that, they lose out on the eye-drawing colors they could otherwise use, thus altering the feel of the environment.

And then there's the larger, more important issue: the opposing forces, put plainly, the player character(s) and what they fight against.

Good versus evil has nearly, if not always, been the theme of Final Fantasy games. They're not about simple wars between countries, not about disagreements or misunderstandings between sides; they're purely black and white - succeed and live, fail and the world dies along with you. The enemy is 'evil', out to cause chaos and destruction, either ruling over the burned out civilization as they go about picking off the last of the population, or just outright destroying the world. They may start it by backing some other organization or country, but it quickly becomes apparent how bad they are, and that they aren't just after a bit more power or territory: they're after absolute power and destruction.

We 'need' something to really fight against, something that threatens everything. Now while I, clearly, haven't gotten through all the story missions, the Garlean empire doesn't exactly seem to fit the 'evil' bill. Ambitious? Ruthless? Conquering? Tyrannical? Sure... but evil? Meh.

The Grand Companies seem setup to really give us a start on becoming actually part of the fight... but if it's just a fight over land or politics or something, it's still never going to fit into a Final Fantasy game.

I may end up being wrong about the empire, depending on upcoming updates, or I may already be wrong because of what I haven't seen, feel free to correct me, but even if I am, that still means that for a good portion of the game, new players(as in those that don't have a 50) aren't going to see what they're involved in as a real FF conflict, as I don't.

So that's what I pose XIV needs: the feel of true, life ending conflict that every FF game has.

Consumables.

We have them now, but they really aren't that 'usable.' No one is popping an ether for 50 mp. No one is using antidotes, they'd rather just ride out the poison. People are not using food as much as they should (partially due to lack of optimal rank foods, but also not showing what they do or making it easy enough to get a divine boost effect from them.)

I feel we need more food, more items, an increase on their effectiveness, and overall I way to carry it all. =p

(I kind of wish alchemist had been a battle class too. I miss throwing potions at people in Final Fantasy Tactics. ; - ; )

More moogles, more chocobos, more airships and we have ourselves a FF game, well almost.

This is just my own personal oppinion but the biggest thing for me that made this game feel so unlike FF was the enviroments. FF has never been this ugly and bland. One of the main attractions of FF for me has always been its amazing beautiful worlds, so it was a real kick in the teeth to see a boring copy paste world. The sad thing is i just don't think that is going to change, perhaps for future zones. If they continue to use copy/paste then for me this will never feel like a true FF.

A Final Fantasy Game is deeper than just chocobos and Moogles. A lot of what has been said or listed are just superficial, though important and atmospheric, elements of Final Fantasy Games.

I started FFVII again when it came out on PSN. Immediately, i was like "Wow this game Kind of sucks today," as a million tiny annoyances due to the sheer age of the game popped up. However, Despite all this there is a certain quality and heart that still shines through, and that is the pacing.

It is a quality that sets out the series from all the other JRPGs out there, always Start out with a Bang (blowing up mako plants, being attacked by sin, etc.) and then never letting go as the game leads you to the next spectacular set piece (accidentally tricked into burning down a village of summoners, Etc.) and keeps going to the end. The pacing obviously sometimes slow down, but it leads to variety in pace and its long after the game has ensnared your attention.

Pacing is prevalent in all games of all genres. For XIV, we obviously cant have amazing, world changing set pieces every 30 minutes like in Single player games, but we can be guided down to the set pieces that do exist in the game (story missions,side quest, guildleves, behest, incoming dungeons and more content to be added int he future) more intuitively. Then there is the pace of the development of our characters and the pace at which new gameplay elements are introduced to us. And sure, Some FF games go too far in pace control for some people (FFX and FFXIII).

The other pillars of a FF game are, graphics, world and aesthetics (which you guys listed quite nicely), character development, battle system and story, but i believe those are either already adressed, or going to be adressed shortly.

they really need add more of ff fill to it but it seem there tryimg

HP recovering out of battle is not part of Final Fantasy (other than 13 which kind of sucked) but MP recovering out of battle was a part of 12 though only when walking. Personally I don't think it's a bad for HP and MP to recover thing provided that the enemies are threatening enough to make it necessary.