Tanking - WAR and PLD. There is no "Better".

Messed with Convalesce. Just about lost it before I realized that I was double-dipping. I started by multiplying out by effective healing bonus. Overthought the hell out of it. Undergrad mistake right there, lol. Now, this may seem a bit odd, but adding Convalesce doesn't really hurt WAR. PLD already reduces more damage than WAR. You can't heal damage you aren't taking. While PLD's bonus is 30% real, WAR's bonus is 20% real of a larger number. One better, this is added-on to both sides. WAR is further behind in an absolute sense, but actually closer in a relative sense. Anyway, I should have this all done in the next day or so. Still haven't decided about RoH and Flash...

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

WAR is further behind in an absolute sense, but actually closer in a relative sense.

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I think the issue that really skews the outcome of how both tanks' performance is perceived in most instances (when they are dealing with content within their appropriate ilvl range), is the additional capacity for over-healing that WAR's active mitigation brings to the table; in almost every case it is impossible to account for and the result is lost resources, normally preceded and/or followed by dips in mitigation while you wait for the opportune moment to correctly use CDs. In my opinion, cutting down some of WAR's CD's duration by half and/or decreasing their reuse time appropriately would help to alleviate the issue by allowing them to take full advantage (buffed IB) of more windows of opportunity (any time HP dips to ~80%).

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

I'm sorry, but you're just wrong about pretty much everything you said.

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I'm sorry that you don't see it.

Sorry, but no

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Originally Posted by Gingen

PLD vs WAR is non existent. There is no "Better". There is no "Worse".

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As a healer, and based on my 100% DF experience, Paladins are much more easy to heal than War.
Quick analysis => PLD > WAR.

Did I had bad luck and encountered mostly un-skilled Wars? Maybe. I don`t know.
Do I care? No.
Given the choice, if I want a smooth run where I can DPS 90% of time (dungeons, not raids) would I chose War over Pld ? No.

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Originally Posted by gigi_frana

As a healer, and based on my 100% DF experience, Paladins are much more easy to heal than War.
Quick analysis => PLD > WAR.

Did I had bad luck and encountered mostly un-skilled Wars? Maybe. I don`t know.
Do I care? No.
Given the choice, if I want a smooth run where I can DPS 90% of time (dungeons, not raids) would I chose War over Pld ? No.

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All the good Warriors are in FCs and don't run pub groups.

Ure so wrong pally is a better tank so far... Because of their tanking spell.. I am a WARRIOR and I tank coil of bahamut till turn 5. I still said warrior poor than pally... It feel so much pain and tanking 2 dreadnaught is impossible . Feel free to see to watch my video every turn in coil at kaos-guild.enjin.com. Don't just talk.. Down the boss urself then talk to me as a main tank warrior. Do it .. talk less

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Originally Posted by Gingen

I'd like to clarify that this is not a rant. Also, glad to see some people have the sense to say "Paladin is better" or "You're wrong..." without any explanation to back it :P Full of intellect and evidence.

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Pretty sure your original post was filled with opinion and absolutely no evidence.

The only reason people think that PLD is better, because they don't know how WAR works or how to play with one. Healing for a WAR is a lot different than healing for a PLD, yet I use inner beast and healers waist large heals on me. I don't think either tank is better than the other, but if people complain that the WAR can't do what a PLD does, then the WAR will always come up short. But I know for a fact that they're are plenty of things a WAR can do that a PLD can't.

How do I downvote this?

...../faceplam here we go again.

In the world of math, yeah Paladin is better on paper. How it plays out practically in the real world versus a Warrior is a different thing all together in terms of what classes bring the table and how much more beneficial are they to a Warrior over a Paladin and vice versa.

At the end of the day it comes down to how comfortable your group can handle the stress of the level of challenge playing a Warrior brings and of course, the player playing the Warrior needs to save Cooldowns obviously for the correct moments or shit hits the fan real quick.

No one has proven that tanking any current content as a Warrior cannot be done yet or supplied any solid evidence of such, just a cluster of theory crafting to show that it doesn't take damage as well as a Paladin.

I am happy playing Warrior as it currently is, some little tweaks to be done here and there to make it less clunky imho, but apart from that, enjoying the challenge throughly.

Hi, I'm a whm and it's my favorite class and I got a lot of playtime with it.
I am doing the end game content, and have healed plenty of wars and pallies
And I've had both good and bad of both classes. However, I take a completely
Different approach to healing warriors and I suggest all you whm also give it a try.


First of all, lets talk about heals. My most mana efficient healing is cure1 and regen. Unfortunately that's not very effective on a warrior. It keeps me in a reactive state of heal spamming the warrior. I'm also losing efficiency because of over heals. I can't read the warriors mind when he is going to heal himself, and letting him sit at half health is dangerous because the next big crit could kill them. Continued....

So how about cure2 spam and the stoneskin ability. I know cure2 is better in terms of math. BUT you risk no chance of over healing with stoneskin. Most importantly, stoneskin generates a lot less hate, and lets the warrior play to his strengths. It does have longer casting time than say cure2, but if you have decent spell speed it's quite doable. Furthermore, we can use another great underused power of ours. With a warrior tank I can fully commit to cleric stance during speed runs and holy away because holy is also damage mitigation cuz of the long stun.

So by keeping them stoneskinned and using holy you are helping your warriors out by allowing them to play by their strengths(life steal attacks, large health pool) and you cover their weaknesses with the damage absorb and stun.

Give it a try, you will be a happier healer and have a happier warrior =D

tl;dr Whm use stoneskin regen on warrior

A) There's nothing wrong with WAR in 4 mans.
B) Stoneskin and Regen are more effective on a PLD than they are on a WAR.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

A) There's nothing wrong with WAR in 4 mans.
B) Stoneskin and Regen are more effective on a PLD than they are on a WAR.

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B)

1 | Regen is the same, they have the same eHP in tanking stance.
2 | PLD hp 5200, WAR hp 6500. War gets 1170hp mitigated, PLD gets 936 mitigated, BOTH 18% of total hp, which is healed at the same rate (or faster for a war that has any Wrath). WAR takes the edge in practical application since they can reactively heal themselves, and PLD has no choice but to BE healed.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

B)

1 | Regen is the same, they have the same eHP in tanking stance.
2 | PLD hp 5200, WAR hp 6500. War gets 1170hp mitigated, PLD gets 936 mitigated, BOTH 18% of total hp, which is healed at the same rate (or faster for a war that has any Wrath). WAR takes the edge in practical application since they can reactively heal themselves, and PLD has no choice but to BE healed.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Regen is stronger on PLD than WAR. Regen is a 1050 potency heal over the course of 21 sec. (iirc); as an example using your HP values (5200/6500) and simplifying HP > potency outcome as 1:1, that's ~20% of PLD's basic health pool and 17%~18% of WARs basic health pool (~18% assuming Full stacks over the full duration, ~17% assuming stacks are built in a timely manner).

Edit: ~17% was assuming the Regen buff is dynamic and changes with player +% healing buffs, otherwise ~16% is the base value with no Wrath stacks.

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Originally Posted by Skull_Angel

Regen is stronger on PLD than WAR. Regen is a 1050 potency heal over the course of 21 sec. (iirc); as an example using your HP values (5200/6500) and simplifying HP > potency outcome as 1:1, that's ~20% of PLD's basic health pool and 17%~18% of WARs basic health pool (~18% assuming Full stacks over the full duration, ~17% assuming stacks are built in a timely manner).

Edit: ~17% was assuming the Regen buff is dynamic and changes with player +% healing buffs, otherwise ~16% is the base value with no Wrath stacks.

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Also Stoneskin becomes better on a pld if they use any mitigation CD - the only way for warriors to make the stoneskin better is if they use thrill of battle BEFORE stoneskin is casted.

Overgearing yourself and then doing content with said overgeared gear does not mean that that invalidates all the math against Warriors. BTW, still haven't seen any evidence of Warrior's MTing Turn 4 even from fully geared Allagan Warriors, while PLD's can do it just fine with only darklight gear, care to explain this OP?

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Originally Posted by Skull_Angel

Regen Stats.

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So WAR is 18.5% of total in Infur vs PLD 20.1%. So PLD takes a 1.7-2.0% advantage. I think we can pretty much call that even lol.

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Originally Posted by Derza

Also Stoneskin becomes better on a pld if they use any mitigation CD - the only way for warriors to make the stoneskin better is if they use thrill of battle BEFORE stoneskin is casted.

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What...? If a PLD pops a CD its a % of dmg done...whether its a shield or not. Its "more effective" because they are using an extraneous source of mitigation. The same could be said about a Cure. But in terms of practical application, like I said, I would give the edge to the WAR because it smooths out the incoming damage every time Stoneskin hits, which should give them an easier time being maximally efficient using their own self heals, without the Healer over-lap.

Full Disclosure: I think WARs need a few extra CDs, or they need Bloodbath to be a trait. I don't think they are on equal footing with PLDs, I just happen to agree with how that WHM said to heal them : D

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Originally Posted by Taemek

In the world of math

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FFXIV is not programmed in Feels++. The game is math.

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Originally Posted by Derza

Also Stoneskin becomes better on a pld if they use any mitigation CD - the only way for warriors to make the stoneskin better is if they use thrill of battle BEFORE stoneskin is casted.

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It's better on a PLD even if they don't pop a CD since they can block.

There is nothing Paladin/Warrior does better than Paladin/Paladin but Paladin/Warrior can clear any and all content currently in the game. Period.

Sincerely, everyone doing turn 5.

edit - Also, one of the reasons you get so many one line responses to this thread is that it has been beaten to death extensively in many threads already. People are kind of tired of the same song. Mathematically, warriors have less eHP than paladins. Throw HG into the equation and kaboom.

That being said, we still run a Warrior. No one says they aren't viable but to say there is no difference is just factually wrong.

The future isn't all gloom though. You'll be able to debuff for all the sweet Samurais.

My favorite part of these threads is the special snowflake wars who come in and are all like, "People just don't get how to play wars because they are different than other tanks! Me on the other hand, I'm superior to all the other wars who did that math stuff, because you see I have a lot of health, and then sometimes I press inner beast to heal myself! Come on guys, wars are DD tanks!" It's especially funny because most of the people doing the heavy lifting in the math department (Kitru, Hachiko, others) are warriors themselves.

■ In Regards to WAR

The Binding Coil of Bahamut
Especially for Turn 1 and 4, strategies have been employed that the development team hadn't considered (such as only using paladins to live through multiple stacks of a buff the boss has), and a situation has developed where paladins are favored over warrior. We apologize for this. In patch 2.1 we will be making adjustments so that warriors can do the content that paladins can do.

Adjustments to Stun
A warrior’s stun is different than paladin’s in the sense that it can be used at any time separate from the global cooldown, which is an advantage, but for specific content where stuns need to performed multiple times or with precise timing, it’s difficult to utilize warrior’s stun, so we will be making adjustments in patch 2.1 to improve its usability.

We also plan for a variety of other adjustments for warrior in patch 2.1.

yoshi words,so change the title to pld is better

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

FFXIV is not programmed in Feels++. The game is math.

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This is perhaps my favorite quote on these forums.

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Originally Posted by mushashi

yoshi words,so change the title to pld is better

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Where is this from? And that is awesome news - I'm excited to see what they come up with, and kind of bummed I spent 825 Mythos on AF2 chest if they make WARs competitive, because I'd rather play WAR lol.

OP how does the tears taste after Letter live?

I use to be this naïve. But then I started doing math

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

I use to be this naïve. But then I started doing math

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or played the game for more than 49 levels.

It has been said before but i think it could be useful to repeat it : It's completely absurd to say "This class is better than this one" because the most important in a game is what you're feeling when you are playing. PLD may have better stats (or not), but that doesn't mean he's better, the only thing which is revealed is that he's maybe more efficient (at least, mathematically).

Mathematical Efficience means to be the best ? Maybe that's the question to answer, the maths are objective, but the person who is playing is an human so maybe what we're calling "the skill" enter in action ? Don't you think so ?

P.S : Sorry for my english, i'm french.

ok, lets Talk about Math.

Lets say the Boss hits you with 1600 always.
Do the Healer feel if Warrior use Bloodbath or Stormspath?... no f.. way

1600inc, Bloodbath heals you about 20-80 per hit/Dot.
1600inc, Stormspath heals you abou 100-150 all 8sec.

The only Thing what is good, is IB, BUT, only when it crits. with Malm Buff, debuff on Boss and Berserk it possible to land a 2300 Selfheal Crit, without Crit about 1500max. and berserk is not always ready.

Do you really think all 20sec. a selfheal of 800-2500 is good?
I dont think so.

And when we use IB, our 15%+ heal is away.


Paladin works how he should, he reduce incoming dmg. Healer feels if he use a CD like 20%/40%/100% dmg reduce or 60%+ blockchance (Block = 20-24% dmg reduce)
Warrior on the other side... yes, yes, yes HE CAN TANK EVERYTHING WHAT PALADIN TANK. with ONE BIG DIFFRENCE ---> MORE WORK FOR HEALER ... and thats the f.. main Point.
Thats why we Need a buff patch.

Yoshi said something about 7 Points to Change.
Waht 7 Points are These?

Problem is scaling, "%dmg done" always sucks, because our HP rise faster then our dmg.
So what he want to do? "%max HP"? sounds better for me.

all we can do is wait and hope the fix it right.


And for all People and Paladin fanboys out there who think:" Warrior just Need to wait for CrystalTower gear, then they are good in BC"... Ladies, Wake up. Paladin can Tank BC with courrent Darklight Equip, what you think how good he will be with CT gear?, right, still better then Warrior.

ps. sorry for my english

This has got to be a strait up troll topic.I have seen warriors get hit with hood swipe for 5k+ with only one or two stacks. I Have seen the golems in T3 hit a warrior for 7k+. The only place warrior has a remotely niche role is in turn 2 because ADS cannot be blocked and the extra dps helps. Just because your healers are awesome at not letting you die doesn't make you equal to a paladin.