Monk/Pugilist: Useless Skills

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Originally Posted by Chokee

but me and my real life friends don't have a "normal party" . we have 1 pld and 1 brd. when the pld is tanking, sometimes he can't silence
its not the best strategy, we know. heck, i don't even think it's a "good" strategy. but i'm just saying it's possible.

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If you become to a pure silencer , your group DPS will be extrem low. Take much longer time to kill it. longer the fight, easier to fail.What I can image is you get opo form ready and auto attacking, if you doing anything, you may get 2 sec lock. If you died , GG, if you try to avoid aoe or transfer rot and boss casting HV, GG too. If you wait there and boss didn't casting HV in 10 sec but casting after 10 sec, another GG. There are too many way you can fail this silence than pal and bard. From stag point of view, it is not worth to do it. pal backup bard silence is best way. You may died there hundred times to get used to the silence. Most of us dont have a group could tell us try more than 3 times.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

If you become to a pure silencer , your group DPS will be extrem low. Take much longer time to kill it. longer the fight, easier to fail.What I can image is you get opo form ready and auto attacking, if you doing anything, you may get 2 sec lock.

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the better you time it, the lower your downtime will be. also, im only replacing one skill with silence in my rotation, every other combo. and waiting for ~4s on every other combo. "extremely low" is exaggerated.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

if you try to avoid aoe or transfer rot and boss casting HV, GG too. If you wait there and boss didn't casting HV in 10 sec but casting after 10 sec, another GG.

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if i have rot, the next one will take it from me instead of me walking to them. the only thing i run away from is repelling cannons and i can go back right after the red circle disappears. and as i said before, you can estimate HV's cooldown and finish your combo when you have ~10s left.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

There are too many way you can fail this silence than pal and bard. From stag point of view, it is not worth to do it. pal backup bard silence is best way. You may died there hundred times to get used to the silence.

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we (our party) don't need the "best" way. we can't grind coil. we don't get bonus items for doing it the "best" way. my friends are okay with wiping, at least we know we are improving. if you prefer the easiest way on everything, then we might have been playing for different reasons.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Most of us don't have a group could tell us try more than 3 times.

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yes we died lots of times before i get used to it. but we chose to build a strategy based on our composition, rather than changing our composition to accommodate a strategy.

i'm sorry to hear that your group is impatient, though.
try looking for better friends. and stop being so pessimistic on monks. they're not as bad as you think they are.

also, maybe we are arguing on different things. i am merely saying that a silencer monk is viable. i am not arguing your point that bards and paladins are better or safer. that is true.

There is no HV cool down, you can Not predict when he will cast it. from what I notice ADS HV interval between 15 sec to 45 sec, he can cast two aoe skills in between or no other skill at all. You cannot maintain your gl3 if you are on silence duty, which will cost 50% DPS lose.
Wait 5 sec in rotation will cause another 30-50% DPS lose. Still you are not guaranteed to get silence succeed.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

There is no HV cool down, you can Not predict when he will cast it. from what I notice ADS HV interval between 15 sec to 45 sec, he can cast two aoe skills in between or no other skill at all. You cannot maintain your gl3 if you are on silence duty, which will cost 50% DPS lose.
Wait 5 sec in rotation will cause another 30-50% DPS lose. Still you are not guaranteed to get silence succeed.

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when you get to turn 2 again, count his HV intervals. it would always fall on 20~25s. there are other people out there that counted the same as we did.
http://www.excessum-gaming.com/forum...as-after-fight
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...cussion/page29

edit: here is a link of a full turn 2 boss fight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjeB5Xvrnbg

time remaining when ADS casted High Voltage:
32:05
31:43 -> 22s to recast
31:21 -> 22s
30:57 -> 24s
30:33 -> 23s
ADS consumes a node and casts Gravity Field right after.
30:04 -> 29s
29:42 -> 22s
ADS consumes a node to acquire Ballast and adds it to its skill pool.
29:14 -> 28s
28:52 -> 22s
28:28 -> 24s

as you can see, it has a 23s average recast timer.
you can do 2 cycles until its time to stall at opo opo form. 3 cycles if ADS is almost 50% and 25% HP.

as you can see, 15 to 45 seconds is exaggeration again on your part.



in the previous post you imagined what i would do based on what would YOU do, as if we have the exact same play style. and now you told your observation as if it was a fact.
if you're going to stay like this then i won't bother you anymore. just stay as conceited and pessimistic as you are now. we won't have meaningful conversation if you just look at it from your own observation and disregard everyone else's.

have a nice day.

Not aways 22 to 25, the variation is about 10sec on one video already.
See this video, he did 29sec once, 31 sec once. 9:53 to 10:24
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGuNET41umY.
21 to 25 sec is most he did.

that happens when ADS acquire a new skill when it reaches 50% and 25% hp.

so you do an additional combo on those hp thresholds.

also, ballast has longer cast time so it delays it even further.

that's where your back up comes in.

you said so yourself, groups always have back up right?

but then again you're the only one here that wants to see a monk silence all by himself to be called "good".

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Originally Posted by Chokee

that happens when ADS acquire a new skill when it reaches 50% and 25% hp.

so you do an additional combo on those hp thresholds.

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To this point, you are not single silence any more?
Btw, monk 3 skills rotation is about 7 sec. 2 set action take 15 sec, wait from 16 to 25 sec and not guarantee he will casting, what is the point?

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

To this point, you are not single silence any more?
Btw, monk 3 skills rotation is about 7 sec. 2 set action take 15 sec, wait from 16 to 25 sec and not guarantee he will casting, what is the point?

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i never said i silence solo on our coils. i have teammates. you're the only one that said monks need to silence solo to accomplish the job. i'm only saying from the start that it's possible to participate in silence duty and make use of Arm of Destroyer, i didn't say i will do it alone.

you pace your skills. you don't spam 2 sets. you're imagining what i'd do again based on what would you do if you were in my place.


my whole point from the start is that monks can participate in silence duty and Arm of Destroyer isn't as useless as you people say it is. that is my one and only point in this thread. and you go around insisting that monks should be doing the silences alone to get the job done or the skill to be useful.

i am not telling you that you should do this in your coil party. different people do things differently. i am only trying to say that it's possible. why can't you accept that? does it offend you that other people play differently?



this is getting tiring. okay-- you win, whatever your point is. i'll just do what i do, and not share different way of doing things and using a skill people deem useless.

The problem is some people say monk could do solo silence duty, and other people ask for evidence which none could provide. Then you jump in and say you are the guy who do silence duty for your group and only need bard help on first HV. we definitely need ask you how you did it. Turn out, you can't. Monk has worst silence skill. I would rather have an instance silence skill with 1 min CD.

we are arguing because you didn't understand my first post. i never jumped in and claimed anything. i just shared my experience in coil.

if you read my first post, last paragraph you could see that it is for turn 1's ADS. i said there the first silence is always on someone else than me. then on further posts, when we're talking about turn 2 because you've mistaken that i was talking about turn 2, i repeatedly posted thereafter that i have backup silence from my friends and i never mentioned that i do it alone. read it again.

maybe they're better than both of us. or maybe they're exaggerating. but didn't you exaggerated too with your "50% dps loss from gl3 and another 50% dps loss from stalling stance for 3s" ? and also the 45s of no high voltage?

Just an FYI you can do first silence by using perfect balance. Just so we're clear here. If your job is to silence. Your job is to silence to make sure the group succeeds throughout the encounter. Damage is no longer your primary concern. You will be DPSing of course. But silencing in Oppo/Perfect Balance should be what you do and worry about. Attempting to finish the fight a little faster and actually finishing are very different things.

If for whatever reason you over commit to a new stance. perfect balance > Arm = silence on the fly, this is your only get out of jail free card. But it's good enough to make use of when needed.. Saying our Silence is worse than Paladins is hilarious. It takes so long for them to even get the silence effect after using the move.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Just an FYI you can do first silence by using perfect balance.

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It's my understanding that Perfect Balance puts you in its own special "form" where you can use any ability but don't get any of the form bonuses; and, as such, you wouldn't be able to silence in PB just as you can't get the DK debuff going. Is that not accurate?

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

Tell that to Monks who solo interrupt ADS in Binding Coil

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If they are doing that, they are doing it at the expense of their DPS. While other classes' silences are off the GCD, only adding to it. It's a worthless skill. You're better off replacing the MNK with a BRD and running 2 BRDs for silences.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

It's my understanding that Perfect Balance puts you in its own special "form" where you can use any ability but don't get any of the form bonuses; and, as such, you wouldn't be able to silence in PB just as you can't get the DK debuff going. Is that not accurate?

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You do get the form bonuses. Next time head to some dummies and pop PB and do some attacks. Dragon Kick will put the debuff, Arm of the Destroyer will silence.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

If they are doing that, they are doing it at the expense of their DPS. While other classes' silences are off the GCD, only adding to it. It's a worthless skill. You're better off replacing the MNK with a BRD and running 2 BRDs for silences.

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If monks have gone in solo interrupt the instance and the group has won the encounter, then it's obviously not worthless, they can do it and their group can succeed and progress on. It may suck for the monks dps but it's not always about personal DPS, yeah two bards could interrupt and keep up higher dps, but they also have to make sure and switch off properly and stop attacking at the right moment to make sure they have the GCD ready for the silence, it's not hard but does take coordination, which solo interrupting monk does not need.

Saying its a loss in DPS is kind of besides the point. Having someone on Silence duty allows you to finish the fight in the first place. Monks can do it well. Saying they can't or shouldn't because it costs them DPS pretty much just complaining to be complaining.

When you're placed into a utility role damage is secondary to the current utility role you provide to ensure the safety of the encounter.

And yes DK debuff and Silence from Arm happen in perfect balance.

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Originally Posted by AldricBranchais

You do get the form bonuses. Next time head to some dummies and pop PB and do some attacks. Dragon Kick will put the debuff, Arm of the Destroyer will silence.

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If I had a 50 MNK, I wouldn't be asking the question in the first place, as I'd just go test myself. :p

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

If I had a 50 MNK, I wouldn't be asking the question in the first place, as I'd just go test myself. :p

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Then hurry up and get one. :P Worth iiiitttt

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

If they are doing that, they are doing it at the expense of their DPS. While other classes' silences are off the GCD, only adding to it. It's a worthless skill. You're better off replacing the MNK with a BRD and running 2 BRDs for silences.

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Hey it sucks for the Bards' DPS to have to play the ballad. 20% DPS loss every time. Does that make it a worthless skill?

So Monks have to take a hit in their DPS as compared to optimal if they are on interrupt duty. Guess what? Because of the way the animations work in this game Bards do as well (meaning to ensure Blunt Arrow does go off when needed we might have to hold off on those abilities which have longer animations). It's how it goes with utilities. Nothing for Monks to complain about, and good ones don't.

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Originally Posted by Dire

Hey it sucks for the Bards' DPS to have to play the ballad. 20% DPS loss every time. Does that make it a worthless skill?

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Your exemple is wrong, Bards are the only ones who can use Ballad. If you're a Bard and there is another class in your party which can Ballad without nerfing his dps, you'll never use yours. This isn't optimal. Exactly like a monk nerfing his damage output to silence ADS when there is bards and paladins in his party.

But I wouldn't say it's a worthless skill.

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

Your exemple is wrong, Bards are the only ones who can use Ballad. If you're a Bard and there is another class in your party which can Ballad without nerfing his dps, you'll never use yours. This isn't optimal. Exactly like a monk nerfing his damage output to silence ADS when there is bards and paladins in his party.

But I wouldn't say it's a worthless skill.

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Now you're just splitting hairs. As a Bard on interrupt duty I will almost certainly lose some DPS because I will have to hold off on the skills with longer animation if I want to be absolutely sure I get the interrupt in (and those skills happen to account for a good portion of my dps increase).

Point is, a dps on utility duty isn't going to perform at 100% dps-wise no matter the class, that's just the nature of the beast. If you don't want to lose dps then don't choose a class with utility. Then you can come here and complain that no one wants said class in groups./shrug

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Originally Posted by Dire

Now you're just splitting hairs. As a Bard on interrupt duty I will almost certainly lose some DPS because I will have to hold off on the skills with longer animation if I want to be absolutely sure I get the interrupt in (and those skills happen to account for a good portion of my dps increase).

Point is, a dps on utility duty isn't going to perform at 100% dps-wise no matter the class, that's just the nature of the beast. If you don't want to lose dps then don't choose a class with utility. Then you can come here and complain that no one wants said class in groups./shrug

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Lol i'm not the one complaining here, i just came here for the entertainment.
I just wanted to point the fact that your exemple with Ballad was stupid.

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Originally Posted by Chokee

we are arguing because you didn't understand my first post. i never jumped in and claimed anything. i just shared my experience in coil.

if you read my first post, last paragraph you could see that it is for turn 1's ADS. i said there the first silence is always on someone else than me. then on further posts, when we're talking about turn 2 because you've mistaken that i was talking about turn 2, i repeatedly posted thereafter that i have backup silence ?

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Thx to make it clear, i agree T1 add and t2 nodes can let MNK try solo silence withou much problem but not ADS boss.the big issue is not DPS lose. The big issue is this boss do too many aoe and he always cast an aoe then a silence right after during the fight. Missing a HV normally causes a group wipe. MNK can be a backup silencer with pal. Still, I rather get a cd instance casting silence skill than this one. Compare with MNK another two skills, this one isn't useless but not wonderful either.