Why people are bad at the game, and why they never learn to play it.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

While sitting here eating ramen I happen upon this gem stone of a comment I assume this person finds it funny to waste other ppl time and hold them prisoner in duties. For shame. Ppl need to earn to pay or just realize if you cant play this.might not be the game for you. Its plain simple concept. If your hodinh ppl back in savage cause u refuse to do better i guess those 7 other ppl need to bend the knee to that one player. If 7 ppl in utimates know the fight but the one person refuses to learn dont kick him or her god no. Keepp them there they payed 60.00 to play this game who are we to disband pf and statics cause of one oerson who refuses to do better right. Lol

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You do realize that you're referring to an extremely small proportion of the playerbase when you refer to ultimates, right? We're talking about 5% of the players- then how many And then an even smaller amount fall into joining and not knowing the fight? Right- I'll grant that it happens, but those are likely the outliers.

As Alyx said, there is casual content where there is going to be a mix of players, and in that mix of players some are going to want to aim for higher level content at one point, some want a bit of challenge, but some want to just relax and have some fun- that doesn't " mean "afk and do nothing" should be acceptable. As the majority of players remain at this level and rarely/never do more challenging content, but do many other ting - crafting, RP- I would also say- no, it is not an ARPG, it's not "fundamentally an action combat game "- that is an important part of the game, but it would not account for the game lasting this long.

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Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

I wouldn't consider it an ARPG at all, if you want to look at ARPG style MMOs then at bare minimum you can look at ESO. FFXIV has been pushed as this casual Story centric MMO where they want to accommodate as many players as possible. The development has been pushed with the casual audience in mine for a long while now and that's why we are seeing pushback from the casual audience.

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None of it changes the fact that the core gameplay of THIS game is an Action RPG. When creating a character, you HAVE to choose a combat class. Access to other, non-combat content is gated by progression in combat content and behind reaching certain levels in a combat class. Yes, the combat maybe not as fast or snappy compared to others, all very correct assessments. But it still is fundamentally an Action RPG, combat is in real time, both the player character and npcs are executing their actions without waiting or regard for one another. And the main gameplay loop is combat. It's not a tactical RPG, it's not turn based, it's not a shooter, not a grand strategy game, not a card game, not an economic simulator, no matter which side content is available.

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Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

Id also like to comment on your mention of Sports. See when engaging in Sports you more than likely signed up knowing what you were getting into whether that is a casual fun family outing or a Competitive Event. Its a little unfair to compare sports to a game. You can play Sports at any level, I'm disabled but I'd still engage in something fun like Rounders for a laugh! No one is expecting professional or even a base knowledge when you go into these Sports.

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No, it's not an unfair comparison, why should it? Many sports are games, meaning activities within a confined spatial and temporal context and played following an agreed upon rule set. People engage with them for the sake of engaging with this specific type of game. Even if someone has other interests like "getting fit", if they choose one sport, they have chosen that particular sport. Why then exactly is it so outlandish to expect that the people who have chosen THIS game, spend thousands of hours and quite a lot of money on it as well, to be at least baseline competent at it. I mean, the video in the op lists a few examples of baseline failures like tanks single-pulling, healers cure1 fishing, and dps not using AoE. We can also add a few more examples like ice mages and non-finisher samurais. To circle back to your particular sports, do you accept and play with people who can't even hold the bat or throw the ball, like at all? I think not.

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Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

Snip 2nd part

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And THIS is precisely the point I am trying to get across here. Participation in THIS GAME is already purely optional. No one is forced to play this game, at all. And activities like PvP, or even dungeon content with other players (thanks to duty supports / trusts) is also optional. Why then is people not even being able to do the bare minimum (no one is talking about savage level performance) when being grouped others, something that should be tolerated? Again, this is a cultural question. Someone who doesn't value other people's time and enjoyment, will of course see nothing wrong in being absolute dead weight to their group at all times. This person will see absolutely nothing wrong with afking in Frontline. Or even in ranked PvP. Or having to go afk for 10-15 minute in the beginning of a dungeon. Or not even learning the base mechanics of the job they are currently playing.

It comes off as rather disingenuous when the discussion turns to comparing people who are being AFK to people who are not performing at an optional level. They are not equivalent.
Now, whether it should be acceptable, as a community, to party with people who are AFK in a duty, or in Frontline- is one discussion, and there are multiple threads, in the PvP forum, on people's experiences on just that topic.

However, in a collaborative game, especially in one with random parties, pre-formed parties, and multiple levels of content difficulty, with multiple types of players, all with varied interests- it comes off as vastly overly simplistic to see that there is one single, common tolerated view amongst all players of what is acceptable in all of these situations.

Square recently improved the Hall of the Novice, if they added additional tutorials or job guides I would be all for it- however you would still find people who are "sub-optimal" and don't care- as long as they still enjoy the game, and can complete the content. With respect to the people who they are completing it with them - well- they either don't mind doing the slight bit more extra, don't mind if a dungeon takes 2 minutes or 5 minutes more, or want to help them.

These topics always infuriate me because it always boils down to, every single time...elitism and the idea that one cannot have their fun in savage, extreme, and ultimate content as long as somewhere out there, some slacker (read, majority of the playerbase) is having fun engaging in content that isn't up to those standards.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

It comes off as rather disingenuous when the discussion turns to comparing people who are being AFK to people who are not performing at an optional level. They are not equivalent.

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It's only "disingenuous" because you are a raging contrarian. The context of this discussion is the video linked in the OP, which lists behavior like cure1 fishing healers and dps not using aoes in dungeons. But you probably didn't even bother skimming the video, just coming in here to pick some fight however you can for the updoots or something. And yes, these behaviors are equivalent, because they are essentially dismissive of the other people's interest just to get personal rewards. It's like showing up to a double badminton match without a racket and with no intention to move. And while that is a perfectly legal way to play Badminton within the framework of the rules, the other 3 might not see this kind of behavior as conducive to their version of a "fun badminton experience".

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

However, in a collaborative game, especially in one with random parties, pre-formed parties, and multiple levels of content difficulty, with multiple types of players, all with varied interests- it comes off as vastly overly simplistic to see that there is one single, common tolerated view amongst all players of what is acceptable in all of these situations.

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If someone queues for a combat duty, the completion of the combat duty should be their interest in the first place. People who aren't interested in completing the combat duty should not be queuing for said combat duty in the first place. The fact that this kind of behavior is normalized pretty much ONLY within the video game context is completely asinine. It's video game addiction, nothing else. People need help and therapy to get their addiction under control, not being carried through content they don't want to engage with in the first place.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

With respect to the people who they are completing it with them - well- they either don't mind doing the slight bit more extra, don't mind if a dungeon takes 2 minutes or 5 minutes more, or want to help them.

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And there we have it, the real reason no amount game design will ever improve the skill of people not even doing the bare minimum to pull at least some of their weight: The enabler community. As I said, practically every learning opportunity is either passively or actively wasted.

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Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

These topics always infuriate me because it always boils down to, every single time...elitism and the idea that one cannot have their fun in savage, extreme, and ultimate content as long as somewhere out there, some slacker (read, majority of the playerbase) is having fun engaging in content that isn't up to those standards.

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All discussion so far has been explicitly framed with regards to people not even doing the bare minimum like using AoE in a dungeon as dps. But hey, good for you to ignore all that and to stick it to those dang elitists! Gotta collect all them updoots or something.

I've personally stopped counting the number of Tanks that are so slow and only take one pack at a time, or the Heals that die on bosses and that I have to finish while keeping the 2 Dps alive.

As a result, I've ended up only doing dungeons in Tanks, because I get bored waiting for a Tank that's too slow, even if the wait is longer.
I prefer to make my whole party run like that, so they can just follow me...

And all that, the 60% of parties in Expert where it takes me nearly 20 to 25 minutes to finish, when I'm bored, I leave.

Raid alliances take 1 to 2 runs to stop dying, or die on the final boss when things get messy.
Those who die over and over don't really make an effort, the game is 11 years old, and the combat mechanics have remained constant.

Ps: What really bothers me is that the 7.1 dungeon is an ease compared to the level 100 dungeons of 7.0...
All because people were crying that it was too hard... It was actually a bit more fun, except maybe the funfair, which was annoying with its add mechs that immobilize you.

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Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

These topics always infuriate me because it always boils down to, every single time...elitism and the idea that one cannot have their fun in savage, extreme, and ultimate content as long as somewhere out there, some slacker (read, majority of the playerbase) is having fun engaging in content that isn't up to those standards.

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Let me guess, you didn't watch the video, because this has nothing to do with elitism.

here is one example i just experienced this week,

I Did Leveling roulette , as Warrior.

I get Orogenesis (lvl 99 dungeon) , i look at the Party list and see three F players, which already gave me a bad feeling.

I do the first pull, the Scholar spamming Physik on me(nothing else, just spamming Physik), even though i am full health, and i am Warrior, so i dont even need heals.
The trash pack lived for at least twice as long as usually, after asking why he is healing with physik and not doing damage, i get no response, so i leave the party, let some other foolish tank deal with these people.

Could i have cleared the dungeon? yes easily, could i have done it in under 30 minutes? probably not . Going at Snails pace simply is NOT fun.

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Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

These topics always infuriate me because it always boils down to, every single time...elitism and the idea that one cannot have their fun in savage, extreme, and ultimate content as long as somewhere out there, some slacker (read, majority of the playerbase) is having fun engaging in content that isn't up to those standards.

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"Fun?"

I'm sorry, but if playing poorly or sub-optimally is what you consider fun, then you can have that with your friends. As a mostly solo player, while I don't expect perfection and try to be friendly, but I'm not your friend to be messing with my time. Whether it's DF or PF, I'm there to fill a role and complete the instance so I can go my merry way.

Throwing the word "elitism" around is reckless, as I don't think people who just want to get the job done is like that. Pointing something out like a Dancer not using Closed Position on their fellow DPS for example, and their reason for doing so is because it's not Ultimate is a problem. People like you who are probably enabling this don't let the player grow and learn how to play their class well.

This becomes a vicious cycle until they meet the wrong one and tells them off, causing more stress.

Be better.

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Originally Posted by VanillaWafer

"Fun?"

I'm sorry, but if playing poorly or sub-optimally is what you consider fun, then you can have that with your friends. As a mostly solo player, while I don't expect perfection and try to be friendly, but I'm not your friend to be messing with my time. Whether it's DF or PF, I'm there to fill a role and complete the instance so I can go my merry way.

Throwing the word "elitism" around is reckless, as I don't think people who just want to get the job done is like that. Pointing something out like a Dancer not using Closed Position on their fellow DPS for example, and their reason for doing so is because it's not Ultimate is a problem. People like you who are probably enabling this don't let the player grow and learn how to play their class well.

This becomes a vicious cycle until they meet the wrong one and tells them off, causing more stress.

Be better.

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I thought the TOS covered this? You're able to Vote Kick people if you feel like your playstyles are incompatible? There's always going to be discourse when it comes to player performance, always has been and it's nothing new to FFXIV. When you enter the public domain you will meet all kinds of players. If you're unable to reconcile your differences with other players then you Vote Kick.

Sadly you're entering into content designed to be jumped into and you'll meet players of all different skill. The best you can do is be polite and handle the situation as it comes.

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Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

I thought the TOS covered this? You're able to Vote Kick people if you feel like your playstyles are incompatible? There's always going to be discourse when it comes to player performance, always has been and it's nothing new to FFXIV. When you enter the public domain you will meet all kinds of players. If you're unable to reconcile your differences with other players then you Vote Kick.

Sadly you're entering into content designed to be jumped into and you'll meet players of all different skill. The best you can do is be polite and handle the situation as it comes.

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I am aware of this, but I don't use Vote Kick unless it's absolutely necessary and other players are in agreement. Sometimes these players come in twos or threes, and their friends enable their behavior. When that happens, then I have no problem dropping the instance and happily eat the 30 minute penalty.