Indeed, but they are effective enough to bypass the need of a healer. The existence of Vulne stack, dps some time getting killed after a simple mistake and dps being able to rez and 3/4 tank having access to almost on demand healing just create a situation where the only difference between bringing a healer or anything else (assuming no healing check mechanic) is the lost of a Healer LB and a slightly smaller ammount of mistake the party can make (and good chances of having a smaller ammounts of rez user in the party)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
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08-15-2024, 03:15 PMMagikazam
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08-15-2024, 03:17 PMSupersnow845
Youve just proved my point
Your entire 4 paragraph post boils down to “don’t hurt tanks to fix healers” but then you won’t actually explain how you would fix healers without in some way damaging the current tank position
I don’t know how to say this any other way “don’t hurt tanks” is not a complete answer to how to fix healers
This wasn’t even an actual idea with any substance from me, it was just a quick and nasty way to fix the healerless speed kill meta but that doesn’t mean it’s a good way to fix it
But again if you don’t want to hurt tanks then you have to provide a way for healers to be good again without doing it because the tanks encroachment on all the other roles is quickly closing paths to fix that problem -
08-15-2024, 03:24 PMMikoRemi
Conveniently forgetting the part where I mention don't ask a civilian how to do rocket science but shows how you yourself don't wanna pay attention.
Nor mentioning how hurting tanks is also an answer. The fact you're even suggesting its not even an idea with any substance just makes me wonder then, what's the point? Malicious intent? Ok, and you could be using that time actually coming up with a useful solution. But nah, 0.1% of the playerbase are having fun with all tank/tank+dps combos with insane healing and res to try healerless clears, let's just mess with tanks with no actual benefit and tanks will just totally agree right?
I don't have to provide a way because that's not my job. I'm pretty content with my position and even when I go healing, it's whatever at the end of the day. Regardless, no matter what happens to any job, hurting other jobs just to inflate your own isn't a path either, its not an actual idea with any substance. So there's no point in even bringing it up unless it's just trolling for attention which is seemingly exactly what's going on.
Like I said, so many other people on the forums wasted their time trying to harm tank sustain as a whole, it didn't happen and in fact got stronger. I wouldn't mind if healers could get some dps buttons back like Shadowflare or Aero III, but beyond that it's none of my business just like I don't care for healers having it out for tanks for having fun. I'll celebrate the very very rare instance of special comp clears meanwhile because of the planning and effort some can take, like the Kougan example of all healer runs in ARR from earlier. Taking away peoples fun is just nasty business, come up with something with actual substance instead of half baked solutions. That's not on me to decide, I never brought this post up in the first place. I can say that it's a terrible mentality though, so kudos to that. If you don't want to listen though then that's your business. -
08-15-2024, 03:47 PMSupersnow845
So in this case who is the rocket scientist- certainly not the developers themselves, they couldn’t design healer tank balance if they tried considering we are in the current situation we are now
But since you seem to think I’m trolling let’s go over the solutions I and others have offered in the past and why every single one of them fails some random tank mains idea of what the tanks should do and what the healers should do
Solution 1) nerf the tank sustain or specifically nerf out of proportion sustain specifically bloodwhetting, holy Shelton, heart of corrundum and shake it of-> pretty self explanatory why this violates the “don’t harm tanks mantra”
Solution 2) buff the outgoing damage, specifically up auto attack damage, increase critical autos and allow the boss the auto when it’s casting mechanics-> this is basically just solution 1 in reverse, rather than directly nerfing tank sustain you are shadow nerfing by reducing its effectiveness. This runs into 2 problems. Firstly this sort of upscaled damage is heavily gear dependant and likely only affects savage. It wouldn’t be a fix to the problems in casual content. Secondly I’ve been rebuked on this idea in past threads because tank mains like being completely self sufficient and being able to outheal all the damage they receive, if they buffed damage they said they wanted buffs to their sustain to compensate
Solution 3) change nothing about healing leaving it mostly in the hands of the tanks but give healers a somewhat interesting DPS rotation to compensate for the fact that the healing is being strongly performed by the tanks-> this solution doesn’t negatively affect the tanks. That’s a positive right……..well the roem with this solution is it doesn’t actually fix the healers. There is a few facets to this. Firstly and most importantly people play healers because they want to actually heal. There are proponents amongst the healer community like me, arvaell, Reiner and Ty who also like the gameplay feeling of being an accomplished caster in your own right but at their core healers want to heal. If you went down this route you are changing nothing about how healers are functionally vestigial in casual content of your tank is even half awake nor does it change the fact that in a healing design that favours tank healing tanks still do more damage, buffing healer damage encroaches on tanks which we have established is a deal breaker in this exercise
Solution 4) leave tanks as completely self sufficient but return control over party healing to the healers-> now this solution also comes with a few problems but I think it’s the closest one to working so far. The biggest problems amongst this is exactly why healerless clears sub in more tanks, specifically because they can heal others. If you wanted this solution to work you’d need to either nerf the shareable heals (solution 1 so no) or up damage so the healers were needed even accounting for the shared heals (solution 2 so also no). You could maybe tweak tank damage so that tanks were forced to be selfish with their sustain to keep themselves alive but that’s also solution 2 which is a no. This also wouldn’t affect content where the tank is the only one getting hit on average (functionally all of normal content)
Solution 5) leave healing as is but give healers something to upkeep that is essential to the raid that cannot be covered by any other role such as a permanent boss debuff required to keep him from not wiping the raid or even something like a BRD esque permanent buff on the party-> this again is a solution that I can sorta see working but runs into the problems of solution 3 where it doesn’t change the fact you are basically admitting the tanks are more effective at self healing and that healers should just be compensated by…….not healing
I’m not trolling, I’ve offered and refined a lot of solutions over the years and every single one has been blown back because tanks have an incredibly overinflated idea of what responsibilities belong to them and because of some weird DF trauma with cure 1 mages (never mind mitigation less tanks or single target DPS) the DPS always seem to side with the tanks -
08-15-2024, 04:37 PMMikoRemi
And that's already a much better step than opening up with this poisoning of the well post that just screams "I'm out of ideas, someone else give me an idea". As for who is the rocket scientist, if Xenosys Vex is the scientist of Warriors and at this point tanks in general for how close things have been going that way(even though he's just suggesting ideas that closely align with the devs goals as is), or Yoshi-P himself for BLM, you'll have to find or become the rocket scientist you want to be. I'm satisfied where I am so it isn't my fight, nor do I expect these kinds of posts to do anything to harm my fun anyway, but I would at least expect others to not waste their breath on silly changes that won't happen and also wouldn't be positive for the community.
I would say 3 and 5 are the closest, because interesting DPS rotations would help with healers being less stale, their toolkits are mainly filled out for extremes and onward, most of it is really extra when it comes to lower tiered content as a whole. Meanwhile the void dungeons had more esuna styled dooms than before which tanks certainly aren't healing through if they fail the mechs, nor can they save someone with a Nascent Flash or equivalent if someone else eats it. Healers could also just become more supportive overall if it needs to come to that but that's a whole revamping that would require 8.0 if not later.
Meanwhile in DF, it's not in fact a one off to see Cure 1 mages, healers that don't dps, or even the opposite where they dps too much and can't heal properly at all, but that's just a FF14 of the playerbase, you already mention that with bad tanks and bad dps. Playing something like DRK is just subjecting yourself to the mercy of that much more, where in other cases, if we play properly then we don't have to suffer bad players. Not to mention in higher tiered content as someone who isn't a part of the 0.1% who has a healerless static, we need healers, EX1 alone is already a nightmare and EX2 is doable with proper mitigations but having heals makes it much less stressful, but of course these are meant to be the easier extremes when the later ones get harder, just as the first tier of savage is more lenient overall before things start getting heavy.
Open up with the earlier facts first then work from there, don't come with ideas you know are half baked and will only irk other players. It does no favors for you or healers, and this slapdashed idea wouldn't even help healers out, it's just going to make people irritated at the overall cause. I'd rather everyone have fun, just not at the expense of someone else. And if you want to say healers have less fun with me, save it, most are happier that I'm around and not the average DRK, because I can actually mit/heal/dps well. If you want to fix that problem though the entire community would have to hold others accountable and that just ain't happening until the higher end content sadly. -
08-15-2024, 04:41 PMRithy255A lot of this has to do with the really strong Mitigations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magikazam
Sustain, can be targeted in a few ways, Although I think the wrong direction would be to remove sustain from the "short cds", I do want short cd's to only have one mitigation effect such as a 20% damage reduction instead of two stacked effects it feels odd. Jobs like PLD I'd just Remove Magic attack healing. (keeping knight's benediction), maybe add combo healing to royal authority and last hit of atonement for like 200 potency, Warrior I think needs more intense changes, GNB could just do with some slightly lower healing potencies (like 700-600 on excog), DRK could honestly do with a small sustain buff lol.
I really think it is a design issue if a small amount of sustain is all it takes to "make tanks immortal" Currently I do agree that it should be tuned down, but that doesn't make tanks having healing tools a bad thing in my eyes, I just think Tanks in general need adjustments to all their "Survival" tools, which includes reducing mitigations and sustain but shouldn't mean removing sustain from my perspective. -
08-15-2024, 05:17 PMBurmecia
wouldn't mind, tbh
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08-15-2024, 07:04 PMMagikazamTo me tank having sustain is a bad thing since like I already said, with the lack of sustained damage to the party, the only one you end up healing is the tank, and changing mob damage wont change much since rn tank can easily overheal themselves on top of you know, like you said, strong mitigations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
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08-16-2024, 03:59 AMRithy255Sustain has been common, even in ff14 tanks have always had some level of sustain, Warrior had massive amounts of sustain for a very long time ect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magikazam
Sustain and healing tools have been common with tanks, this is why you get life steal tanks or tanks who might be able to help with supporting the party that includes some limited healing tools
Damage should never be so low that some sustain on tanking jobs becomes a problem. -
08-16-2024, 04:41 AMMagikazamAgains, It don't matter how much damage monster do since Tank can easily overheal themselves. The only way to make it so healer has to actively heal the tank is to make it so monster do so much damage they need to turn into healbotQuote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255