Machinist: The "Selfish" Physical Ranged that is not allowed to be Selfish

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Originally Posted by Raikai

But relying on rdps to matter is DNC and BRD's premises anyway, if you compare them with ndps, MCH will go way ahead, as shown in the data we have so far. A fair comparison must be all of the damage contribution in mind.

The whole 'selfish' approach to MCH seems much more encapsulated in the rphys bubble, since their rDPS values are similar. In the end, all boils down to whether or not you trust your whole team (BRD) / dance partner (DNC) to pull their weights or not 'outsourcing' your full dps contribution (MCH).

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Yet we need to look outside the rphys bubble you state, so to speak. As is, we already are running the problem of a Caster Meta and pushing Phys Ranged out. Sure, they'll be losing 15% Mit and a 1% All Stats from Ranged not existing in parties, but with how much damage Casters have from Pictomancer(which is prolly getting nerfed) or utilities from SMN now? Ranged might as well not exist anymore. MCH most of all considering it doesn't contribute as much as BRD/DNC in this regard.

Even looking at hard data, the job feels unrefined, as stated with issues regarding Queen, Flamethrower, and ACB in this thread. SE can try and argue about taxes for things, but this in fact makes the role begin to turn obsolete. What purpose does the Ranged role hold if PCT has as much utility and superior damage? Buffs? Utility? We've essentially slid back into Shadowbringers' first raid tier in this sense, considering the fact that 2x Caster had taken up residence when people were discussing the 1% Buff back during that time to keep Ranged relevant.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

But relying on rdps to matter is DNC and BRD's premises anyway, if you compare them with ndps, MCH will go way ahead, as shown in the data we have so far. A fair comparison must be all of the damage contribution in mind.

The whole 'selfish' approach to MCH seems much more encapsulated in the rphys bubble, since their rDPS values are similar. In the end, all boils down to whether or not you trust your whole team (BRD) / dance partner (DNC) to pull their weights or not 'outsourcing' your full dps contribution (MCH).

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NDPS is DPS without any party buffs taken in account. MCH, SAM and VPR are basically on NDPS by default, you can compare the numbers.
DNC and BRD on NDPS are at disadvantage as you take away the damage brought from their buff.

However if we compare jobs on NDPS, we can see which jobs would benefit better from raid buff.
Viper and Samurai are at the top, which is natural but MCH is 9th among all DPS... Which means a melee that isn't a pure DPS would scale better on buffs, not MCH, a pure DPS.
That's the paradox, MCH should be at the top 4 of the NDPS chart but isn't.

The phys range are in their bubble but in that bubble they are fighting for one single spot in the bigger bubble. And the winner will always be the one that fits in the bigger bubble.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

For the MCH selfish approach to actually have them much higher in the metrics (talking about Rdps here), they would have to drastically increase the complexity of the job, pretty much the same relationship from BLM to SMN, or else nobody would want to take DNCs or BRDs in the phys ranged slot.

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Did you just say that BLM is complex? BLM has 5 buttons. Its rotation is as hard as a healers. Adapting that super basic rotation to a fight mechanic is what makes it "hard".

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Originally Posted by Lanvaldear

Did you just say that BLM is complex? BLM has 5 buttons. Its rotation is as hard as a healers. Adapting that super basic rotation to a fight mechanic is what makes it "hard".

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MCH's ST rotation has the same amount of buttons as BLM's lol (not that number of buttons correlates with complexity anyway).

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Originally Posted by rewd

MCH's ST rotation has the same amount of buttons as BLM's lol (not that number of buttons correlates with complexity anyway).

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It has a few more if you count hypercharge and Ricc/Gauss or w/e they're called now. It also has twice the APM as BLM.
I'm not saying that MCH is hard by any means, but saying that BLM is complex, especially with how hard they're trying to set its rotation in stone is just wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Job not only needs a rework but all Physical range should have some sort of structure of Risk and Reward..

How you can balance range job with 0 casting?

I am not saying that Phy range should have a cast but the current state are just bad

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I've already said it in another thread but I'll reiterate, and perhaps this is a hot take, but I do think way harsher punishment for dying could be a path worth exploring.

But ultimately I'd like something proper to the role. I don't know what. Rotational complexity and rng/priority on the fly used to be a thing for rphys, but they simplified BRD, removed all RNG and ammo from MCH (????), and made DNC more and more braindead since EW.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

How would people feel about mch becoming the only phys ranged with cast times?
Since bard/dancer have buffs, their low dps is more justified
but giving mch cast times (not every ability mind you) would ideally allow them to tune mch around sam/viper/blm levels
i personally think the ranged phys tax is stupid as hell, but they seem adamant about keeping it.

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This is ignoring the fact that DNC and BRD aren't faring better or worse than MCH. There is no lower or higher dps justification. What matters is cDPS and it's comparable in the same ballpark right now. If DNC and BRD don't need a buff, then neither does MCH. On the opposite, if MCH needs a buff, then so do BRD and DNC. There is no in between. If the problem is that MCH is a selfish dps that doesn't compete with other selfish jobs (SAM VPR BLM), then BRD and DNC don't compete with other raid buffing jobs as well (MNK, DRG, NIN, etc). It's tomato and tomato, but i'll concede that DNC and BRD are more appreciated because they tend to bring the bigger raid buffs that melee selfish jobs can usually appreciate more, but that's just that, that's a bandaid, and it doesn't bring BRD and DNC even remotely on par with any other melee job either.

( if anything the irony is that EW/DT SMN has been doing the same output than rphys for better support with raise and literally zero skill ceiling... )

I don't know about cast times. If I wanted cast times I'd go play a caster. But there is definitely an argument being made to introduce some charged skills like iajutsu is on SAM. But this will hardly make a dent in the mobility of the job nor the constraints it will bring to it.

In practice, Physical range already pays the risk by having less defensive stats and HP and no personal defensive. Viper is the exception, similar defense and no defensive.
We also need to take in account that MCH will get outclassed by BRD and DNC as more gear will be introduced, the efficiency of the buffs will only get higher.

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Originally Posted by Lanvaldear

Did you just say that BLM is complex? BLM has 5 buttons. Its rotation is as hard as a healers. Adapting that super basic rotation to a fight mechanic is what makes it "hard".

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Complex in the sense of its a ranged that can fail and be punished for failing and can't move while attacking. It's not hard from a button pushing standpoint but hard from every other gameplay stand point competitively to pretty much all DPS.

You know what SE could do if they actually wanted us to have fun? Uncap Wildfire from 6 GCDs. We'd be able to do some skill expression with double hypercharge windows there.

But they won't because that would be... non standard.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You know what SE could do if they actually wanted us to have fun? Uncap Wildfire from 6 GCDs. We'd be able to do some skill expression with double hypercharge windows there.

But they won't because that would be... non standard.

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Imagine if FMF could be Reassembled and just hit the primary target like 10 times.

Ratta tatta tatta