Please finally fix Tank, DPS and Healer roles SE

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I know, I know, there's already multiple discussions of healers being useless thanks to the recent TOP victory without em but its really an underlying problem with the core design of the holy trinity and its just going to continue getting worse unless the dev team finally addresses it.

Here are the main issues with them that I personally see.

Tanks: Too much mitigation and self-healing. Warriors being a prime example of this where even the most casual players can see how OP they are in normal content. We need their mitigation and healing skills to be nerfed so that it doesnt fully take away a healer's job.

Healers: This has been said for so many years but lack of diverse support and damage with healers not only makes the job very boring but also redundant taking into account how well tanks can do their job. Two possible solutions for this is to either embrace the damage meta and allow healers to have more damage buttons or do what I would prefer and nerf tanks so hard that they cant survive without both healers and dps so that healers have a reason to use all of their bloated healing abilities.

DPS: Only issue I see with them is the oversimplification in their job design. Of course this doesnt apply to every dps job but a common argument thrown around the community is their lack of unique playstyles and the awful 2-minute burst meta. We can still keep them simple to play but there needs to be some bit of flexibility.

I'm not a hardcore player nor do I fully understand the game's meta but if a filthy casual like me can notice and agree upon a lot of the gripes with the current combat design then it's a real problem. The whole point of the holy trinity roles in MMOs is to give each player a task they themselves can only do in group content. If another role is outperforming the task of another role then the trinity is broken.

Either have a tanks, healers and dps, or just make every class role-less and do like what variant/criterion/eureka/bozja does and allow every class able to do everything.

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What is your actual complaint? At first, it sounds like you think tanks are OP, healers are worthless, and dps are boring. If tanks were OP, everyone would play them. If healers were worthless, no one would play them. If DPS were boring, no one would play them. I play all 3 classes, and I personally feel none of them are worthless. I'm tank most often because no one else wants to be tank. I'm healer 2nd most often because it's the second least played class (though it's my favorite to play).

Personally I don't want them touching WHM. I think WHM is fine as is, and I definitely don't want them making it more complicated. I really like how simple WHM is because in normal content I can watch videos when running an expert dungeon for the 500th time, and in harder/new content I can watch the boss and other players more to focus more on learning the mechanics. I would like to have more healing mechanics in harder content though.. More healing, esuna watches, etc. I don't think healers need more complex dps skills, 'cause then why even have the healer class? They'd just be casters then. I'm really happy with how the game is now as a WHM main, but if other healer mains aren't happy then I'd much prefer the fights be made with more healing mechanics rather than the healer skills being made more complex.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Healers should need to focus on healing with DPS an afterthought instead of the other way around.

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This would remain true even if they increased healing requirements by a lot. Healing is a role that comes with a large skill gap by design. It's pass-fail, and Square doesn't want low-skill healers to slip through the cracks in basically all content under Savage difficulty. Downtime is part of healer gameplay. Always has been. When one healer is struggle bussing through an encounter burning themselves down to their last dregs of MP, another is breezing through with skillful use of healing abilities.

It completely gobsmacks me that "need to focus on healing" means the damage rotation MUST be boring...for people who actually engage with it frequently, always as an argument from people unskilled enough to -not- engage with it frequently.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

its really an underlying problem with the core design of the holy trinity and its just going to continue getting worse unless the dev team finally addresses it.

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They just want one role to be able to pick up the slack from another role that is underperforming. Especially in dungeons where skill levels vary. In a raid it is fair to say everyone going into that should be ready for content like that. But it's not necessarily going to be the case for a dungeon where people queue in after a busy day at work on an alt job they don't know how to play, or where they are a new player just doing the story.

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Originally Posted by Claustrum

What is your actual complaint? At first, it sounds like you think tanks are OP, healers are worthless, and dps are boring. If tanks were OP, everyone would play them. If healers were worthless, no one would play them. If DPS were boring, no one would play them. I play all 3 classes, and I personally feel none of them are worthless. I'm tank most often because no one else wants to be tank. I'm healer 2nd most often because it's the second least played class (though it's my favorite to play).

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Its their proper balance. Tanks are too tanky, healers are too useless and dps's well theres not really a game breaking issue but the over simplification of a lot of their playstyles makes combat brain-dead. Ive already said these examples

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Originally Posted by LunisLucerna

Personally I don't want them touching WHM. I think WHM is fine as is, and I definitely don't want them making it more complicated. I really like how simple WHM is because in normal content I can watch videos when running an expert dungeon for the 500th time, and in harder/new content I can watch the boss and other players more to focus more on learning the mechanics. I would like to have more healing mechanics in harder content though.. More healing, esuna watches, etc. I don't think healers need more complex dps skills, 'cause then why even have the healer class? They'd just be casters then. I'm really happy with how the game is now as a WHM main, but if other healer mains aren't happy then I'd much prefer the fights be made with more healing mechanics rather than the healer skills being made more complex.

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Yeah this is why I also said, if were going to keep the current healer design then nerf tank mitigation and adjust game mechanics where damage is more constant to warrant using all of your healing abilities.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

RDM? RDM is at its core the same as it was at implementation. While Manifcation SEEMS less complicated now, that's only if you aren't using it right. Before now, RDM's goal was two combos in burst when they could. Now they want to try to wedge as much of a third in as they can since 50/50 instead of 80/80 means you can actually DO that three times. RDM's actually a smidge (not a lot, but a smidge) more complex than it was in ShB to fully optimize.

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You truly don't have a clue.

Going into 2-min windows with near-capped mana is not hard at all.

The hard part of RDM now comes from juggling Acceleration, Swiftcasts, and off-burst melee combos to minimize Fleche and Contre Sixte drift.

The reason why I don't take casual players like you seriously when it comes to job design is because of this. You have no clue what you're talking about and don't even know what jobs are complicated and what aren't, what jobs got simpler and what got harder.

The most obvious tell is the legion of casual players who comment on how NIN is one of the hardest jobs in the game, which is laughable to anyone who plays EW monk.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Tanks: Too much mitigation and self-healing. Warriors being a prime example of this where even the most casual players can see how OP they are in normal content. We need their mitigation and healing skills to be nerfed so that it doesnt fully take away a healer's job.

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When I first saw the EW job updates go live and saw descriptions of the changes to R.I and the inclusion of the new Blood Whetting skill , I was like damn thats some serious healing power (based on our experiences of dungeons from 58+) but I was wondering , perhaps wishfully thinking ," is this a sign that they intended on making dungeons harder in EW/post MSQ and these powerful self sustains are there to assist the healer " and of course it turns out no.


Its wonderful having such amazing self healing for dungeon packs. You can wall to wall without a worry that a healer will freak out and not be able to keep up , or refuse to participate because they want to cure spam and not play well , but without actual hard content other than endgame it seems wasted/ott.

Rather than a potency nerf perhaps make the cooldown of skills such as R.I and B.W longer ( 60 to 90 sec range) this way you can aid the healer in moments but not make them entirely redundant

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Originally Posted by Izar_Chillen

When I first saw the EW job updates go live and saw descriptions of the changes to R.I and the inclusion of the new Blood Whetting skill , I was like damn thats some serious healing power (based on our experiences of dungeons from 58+) but I was wondering , perhaps wishfully thinking ," is this a sign that they intended on making dungeons harder in EW/post MSQ and these powerful self sustains are there to assist the healer " and of course it turns out no.


Its wonderful having such amazing self healing for dungeon packs. You can wall to wall without a worry that a healer will freak out and not be able to keep up , or refuse to participate because they want to cure spam and not play well , but without actual hard content other than endgame it seems wasted/ott.

Rather than a potency nerf perhaps make the cooldown of skills such as R.I and B.W longer ( 60 to 90 sec range) this way you can aid the healer in moments but not make them entirely redundant

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Yeah perhaps. I think seeing the options for solutions, the easiest fix would be to nerf tanks in general all things considered.

The balance is very bad when one role can outperform the other. Thats not how that should work

The easiest solution would be to dust off their copy of 2.2 and push it to the live servers. Healers have been dead since at least 5.0, the only option is burning it all and starting again. This time without trick attack.