Please Bring Back DoTs and Debuffs

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

This already exists. Three times in the current version of the game, actually.


In fact, we had buffs like Straight Shot granting +10% crit rate while maintained for 30 seconds, which got removed though.

So no, Chain Stratagem will not turn into a "crit rate version of Divination" just for being a debuff.

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Not exactly sure where he was going with that either, these buffs have always only increased critical hit CHANCE, never critical hit damage. That was exactly the reason why they reworked guaranteed critical/direct hit abilities to gain bonus damage under these buffs, because things like Battle Litany or Battle Voice did literally nothing for Warrior before.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Picking up classes like condi Scourge in GW2 reminded me once again that the lack of playstyles and player expression with jobs in XIV is shocking. No other playstyle except burst DPS isn't allowed to exist because they simply don't want to bother balancing anything else, as we see with PLD's changes in patch 6.21 frontloading more potency into its magic phase. I can only assume the 6.3 rework will follow suit.

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they used to exist and were most prevalent in HW. they really started to homogenize in ShB.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

OP: They MIGHT someday make a new DoT Job - some people have argued that was part of their goal with all the pruning of DoTs used by existing Jobs and removing them from SMN entirely - but it's really hard to say since they also gave their reasoning as being opposed to DoTs (I don't remember the exact quote/reference, but it was something about it being more taxing server-side)

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I'm pretty sure I've seen the same thing, but a bit of Googling ain't giving me any results. Either way, I see the following problems with DoT Mages:

1. Too taxing server-side apparently
2. There is a hard cap to how many debuffs an enemy can have. While Roulette content isn't going to hit the hard cap of 60 debuffs, it's likely it will be hit in Hunt Trains. Most people would consider Hunt Trains a big ol' "who gives a shit", but SE would probably consider it a failure if a DoT Mage couldn't properly participate in a piece of content
3. There is a visibility issue since only 30 debuffs can be seen at a time. If you're a DoT Mage then your DoT timers can end up getting hidden which would make it harder to do your Job. This is only likely to happen in Alliance Raids, but again, SE would probably consider it a failure if a DoT Mage couldn't do their Job properly due to a lack of information
4. A DoT Mage would be a sustained DPS Job by nature. Rather than dumping everything into a two minute burst window, they'd be constantly applying and renewing debuffs on a target. Problem is, that kind of gameplay goes against the two minute buff window SE has worked themselves into. All raid buffs are on the two minute window, majority of Jobs are bursting on the two minute window, and there's only what, two sustained DPS Jobs left? Just PLD and BLM now, yeah? And PLD is probably getting shafted into the two minute burst window in 6.3 anyways. Point is, SE wants everything happening in the two minute burst window so it's easier to balance (:rolleyes:), a DoT Mage would fall outside of that design goal
5. SE in general just kinda hates debuffs. SCH and SMN used to be the DoT Mages, but they've lost all that. BRD used to rely on their DoTs for Repertoire procs and a stronger Sidewinder, but that's all gone. NIN lost Shadow Fang, WHM lost Aero III, etc. DoTs are just being culled in general, and I wouldn't be surprised if 7.0 sees BRD down to a single DoT as well

There is a chance SE could rework their system so debuffs aren't taxing on the servers. There is a chance SE could rework their system to increase the debuff cap and make a large amount of debuffs visible. There is a chance SE could shift their Job design away from the two minute burst window and allow for more sustained DPS Jobs. Unfortunately, I don't see any of that happening, and I'll be amazed if they ever make a proper DoT Mage.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

1. There is a visibility issue since only 30 debuffs can be seen at a time. If you're a DoT Mage then your DoT timers can end up getting hidden which would make it harder to do your Job. This is only likely to happen in Alliance Raids, but again, SE would probably consider it a failure if a DoT Mage couldn't do their Job properly due to a lack of information

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I think this is honestly the main reason why they have cut back on DoTs over recent years. Although the hard limit may be higher, it can be very awkward to play a DoT focused job when you can't see your DoTs on the enemy. In an ideal worth, this visual limitation would be resolved, but (to my knowledge) that has yet to happen. I think SE tries to keep things under that visual limit which would only allow for one persistent DoT per job on average for alliance raid.

I'm actually expecting Bard to lose one of its DoTs in the future. Most likely they will lose Venomous Bite, Windbite, and Iron Jaws and will instead have the songs themselves apply a 45s DoT. That might not be so bad as long as they give BRD a way to spread that DoT around, preferably with a targeted AoE that applies a DoT based on the remaining duration of your current song. This would work different from Bane in that it should be possible to apply the DoT to a distant enemy or even new enemies while the boss you initially applied the DoT too can't be targeted.

No idea where you're getting this "too many debuffs" visibility problem, your own afflicted debuffs will always be shown first on your end. Additionally there's even an option in character config you can select that shows only the ailments you put on a target and no one else's.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

No idea where you're getting this "too many debuffs" visibility problem, your own afflicted debuffs will always be shown first on your end. Additionally there's even an option in character config you can select that shows only the ailments you put on a target and no one else's.

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That's not -entirely- true. Bosses have a hard limit of 60 debuffs, but you can only see 30 at a time. If your debuffs get applied after those first 30, it gets hidden in the invisible box of 30 debuffs that don't show up on screen. They may have fixed this, but it was definitely true in late Heavensward, shortly after which they started trimming DoTs. It was very annoying to cast your DoTs on an enemy and not know whether it was there or not, but you could tell it was there if you had any procs based on them (like BLM).

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

That's not -entirely- true. Bosses have a hard limit of 60 debuffs, but you can only see 30 at a time. If your debuffs get applied after those first 30, it gets hidden in the invisible box of 30 debuffs that don't show up on screen. They may have fixed this, but it was definitely true in late Heavensward, shortly after which they started trimming DoTs. It was very annoying to cast your DoTs on an enemy and not know whether it was there or not, but you could tell it was there if you had any procs based on them (like BLM).

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Regardless even if it is still the case, if that was something SE considered then I doubt they would've given RPR a maintenance debuff skill (especially when it existed as a buff in the game beforehand as Hard Thrust) if they were aware everyone was taking it into Bozja/Zadnor as soon as EW dropped.

I just think its silly for people to imply that there's any engine constraint or technical issue preventing a DoT mage from being in the game when it's really just the development team's own lack of creativity and continuing to drive themselves further into a corner with job design by doubling down on formulaic burst DPS/2 minute meta playstyles.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

That's not -entirely- true. Bosses have a hard limit of 60 debuffs, but you can only see 30 at a time. If your debuffs get applied after those first 30, it gets hidden in the invisible box of 30 debuffs that don't show up on screen. They may have fixed this, but it was definitely true in late Heavensward, shortly after which they started trimming DoTs. It was very annoying to cast your DoTs on an enemy and not know whether it was there or not, but you could tell it was there if you had any procs based on them (like BLM).

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That was fixed along ago, you will always see your own debuffs (the only exception is applying feint to AV in BA) first on the list and they will be blue while everyone else’s DOT’s will be white, The problem of actual DOT overload still exist but if you can apply a DOT you will always see your own DOT’s

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that SMN stopped being a DoT-based caster this expansion to allow them to release a DoT-based caster next expansion.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Merchant-type ranged dps that DoTs up mobs by charging interest-over-time effects and cashes in those debts for burst.

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Pass me the hopium, Gamer. I want to believe too.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Regardless even if it is still the case, if that was something SE considered then I doubt they would've given RPR a maintenance debuff skill (especially when it existed as a buff in the game beforehand as Hard Thrust) if they were aware everyone was taking it into Bozja/Zadnor as soon as EW dropped.

I just think its silly for people to imply that there's any engine constraint or technical issue preventing a DoT mage from being in the game when it's really just the development team's own lack of creativity and continuing to drive themselves further into a corner with job design by doubling down on formulaic burst DPS/2 minute meta playstyles.

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Yep and if the cap is actually 60 debuffs instead of 48 I'm not seeing the issue in having a DoT class. The cap will never be reached.

And you know if we REALLY want to press this "class can't have too many DoTs" issue then I think a fun mechanic would be that maintaining your 2 dots accrues stacks of that DoT that increases it's damage as they tick and once you reach max stacks you can use a nuke ability to purge your DoTs and do big damage.

I think players as previously mentioned like putting DotS on enemies and slowly watching them melt or in some cases delete weak enemies by bursting them down with oGCDs while the poison finishes them off.

Tridisaster > Bane > Painflare + Ruin 4 spam was pretty nasty. Oh Stormblood SMN how I miss you.

Here's hoping they do indeed remove Energy Drain/Siphon and Fester/Painflare and plop it onto a DoT caster.