How will Endwalker make crafting more of a brain dead activity like Shadowbringers?

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Originally Posted by Nabril

I just don't know why so many people are asking for "skill" in end game crafting. It's a ridiculous request. "Too many people are crafting!" so what? Crafting has never been difficult and will never be difficult. Unless they add in a ton of RNG and put in a timer so that you have almost no time at all before you have to choose the next proper action in an ever changing sequence of actions before the entire process fails, there will not be any difficulty in crafting. This game has Savage and EX content. That is where the difficulty lies.

Removing the ability to ever get 100% quality doesn't make crafting difficult. It only makes it random. You do the best you can and then rely on RNG. That's not skill or difficulty. That's simply RNG.

I'm beginning to think crafters have forgotten the entire meaning behind the word "skill". It does not mean RNG.

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I think some liked it when they felt part of an exclusive club because so few players were interested into going to the effort of leveling a crafting job because of the time investment involved. Naturally, that also helped them make more gil because there was less competition.

Now it's not so exclusive, now they're making less gil and that's rubbing them the wrong way. It's an understandable reaction though not one that SE should cater to.

As for skill and RNG, choosing how you react to RNG can be a demonstration of skill. You can see this in some degree with Expert. A player who understands crafting better is going to get max rating items more often than the player who's randomly mashing actions because they can't figure out what they should do. RNG is still playing a role in the outcome but so does skill.

The big problem with Expert is not everyone who tries it is feeling rewarded in a way meaningful to them. Even as someone who enjoys it for the most part, I dislike that I'm getting less scrip back from an hour spent on Expert (about 1400 scrip and 3-4 Kupo tickets) than I would get from doing an hour of the normal level 80 Firmament crafts (about 5000 scrip and 16-18 Kupo tickets).

Something that is less difficult should not be more rewarding for the same time investment. What then becomes the point of learning how to craft when I can be better rewarded by just buying leve items off the MB to level crafting then looking up macros online?

Removing the ability to Pentameld would go a long way to stopping that 100%. It's odd though that I've not met one crafter who would want to go that route.

I mean... a lot of crafters have been on this forum complaining about the new Skysteel tools because over all, they lose 16 Control points over their pentamelded tools.

Yes, 16 control points to them was so important that the Skysteel tools were completely obsolete and not worth it. Take away the ability to pentameld and their world would fall apart.

I honestly don't know why you're denying this.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The big problem with Expert is not everyone who tries it is feeling rewarded in a way meaningful to them. Even as someone who enjoys it for the most part, I dislike that I'm getting less scrip back from an hour spent on Expert (about 1400 scrip and 3-4 Kupo tickets) than I would get from doing an hour of the normal level 80 Firmament crafts (about 5000 scrip and 16-18 Kupo tickets).

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Honestly, it'd probably be much better received if it was the better way to make scrips and tickets, but the reward is flipped for that.

Fetes seem like the obvious place to adjust this. Every couple of days, for two hours, Expert Scrip/Tickets skyrocket as the Fetes demand specialized crafts to supplement the celebration. You create a cooldown period, where you diadem gather to replenish your expert material stocks, and a shorter frenzied period where you aim to pump out as many high score crafts as you can, because that's just plain the better option.

For everyone else (and a crafter looking for some variety), you have the Fates as normal and normal crafting during all the other time.

You'd need to expand what the scrips can buy most likely, but I doubt anyone would complain about having more options for expenditure. Cherry Dye only goes so far.

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Originally Posted by Nabril

Removing the ability to Pentameld would go a long way to stopping that 100%. It's odd though that I've not met one crafter who would want to go that route.

I mean... a lot of crafters have been on this forum complaining about the new Skysteel tools because over all, they lose 16 Control points over their pentamelded tools.

Yes, 16 control points to them was so important that the Skysteel tools were completely obsolete and not worth it. Take away the ability to pentameld and their world would fall apart.

I honestly don't know why you're denying this.

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Did you not read what I said?

I have an alt with 100% Handsaint Gear. No Skybuilder tool, no Aesthete gear.

Here's my macro for crafting Exarchic on that alt (as Specialist) using HQ Chili Crab, HQ Cunning Syrup, and all HQ Materials (can also ditch 1-2 of the HQ materials depending on how many total materials are used in the recipe). I'm sure the better crafters in the community could come up with a macro even more efficient.

/ac "Muscle Memory" <wait.3>
/ac Manipulation <wait.2>
/ac Veneration <wait.2>
/ac "Waste Not" <wait.2>
/ac Groundwork <wait.3>
/ac Groundwork <wait.3>
/ac "Careful Synthesis" <wait.3>
/ac "Basic Synthesis" <wait.3>
/ac "Inner Quiet" <wait.2>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac Innovation <wait.2>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>

/ac Innovation <wait.2>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac Innovation <wait.2>
/ac "Prudent Touch" <wait.3>
/ac "Great Strides" <wait.2>

(another macro break so I can use Careful Observation if condition is Poor)

/ac "Byregot's Blessing" <wait.3>
/ac "Basic Synthesis" <wait.3>

100% Quality achieved, craft completed.

Does that make the point strong enough for you? Pentamelding is not what's making things easier. It's primarily the HQ materials. Remove the HQ materials and quality percentage at the end of the craft is down to 20%. Remove Specialist, food and/or syrup, and the craft fails with that macro (of course, I'd just create a new one that would allow the craft to complete at an even lower quality percentage).

We could nerf stats into the ground all we want but as long as crafting has the IWIN button so the craft can always be completed, there really is no difficulty. There's just RNG as to whether the final item turns out to be HQ.

As for the issue of Control on the Skybuilder Tool, the problem was twofold: Control tends to be valued more than Craftsmanship since Craftsmanship is always static in value while Control scales with Inner Quiet, becoming more powerful as stacks increase. Rotations that had been created around efficiency using NQ materials stopped being as efficient, especially if the increase to Craftsmanship was not sufficient to reduce Synthesis steps or CP spent on Synthesis so we can get an extra Touch step. That made the Skybuilder Tool to be less than BIS after we were told it would be a clear BIS.

It also had an impact on Expert crafting. Unlike normal and Master recipes that are all or nothing (either you get a HQ item or you don't), Expert rewards are on a sliding scale. The higher the rating (impacted by Control), the better the reward. With Expert being so heaving dependent on RNG actions like Rapid Synthesis and Hasty Touch, any extra Control you can get is only a positive for offsetting Hasty Touch failure.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

As for the issue of Control on the Skybuilder Tool, the problem was twofold:...
...That made the Skybuilder Tool to be less than BIS after we were told it would be a clear BIS.

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There's not a single tool that beats the Skysteel tool without pentamelding unless I'm missing something. So it was best in slot unless you pentamelded. So obviously pentamelding is making crafting easier if it makes a substandard tool better than the Skysteel tool.

And please don't try and convince me that pentamelding doesn't make crafting easier. You just defended a loss of 16 Control points. Do you have any idea how much control you get from pentamelding? I have more than that on almost every piece of gear I have from hat to ring from pentamelding.

You can get HQ on Handsaint gear using food, syrup, and HQ materials and that's awesome, but someone who pentamelds Aesthete's gear can do that with NQ materials. Full HQ crafted gear without using HQ materials. I know you know what that means. I know you see the difference there.

You also keep stating over and over that this is your alt which means I'm pretty sure your main is Pentamelded and maybe that's why you want to defend it so much. Sorry, but I AM reading what you're writing. You're just not reading my responses.

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Originally Posted by Nabril

There's not a single tool that beats the Skysteel tool without pentamelding unless I'm missing something. So it was best in slot unless you pentamelded. So obviously pentamelding is making crafting easier if it makes a substandard tool better than the Skysteel tool.

And please don't try and convince me that pentamelding doesn't make crafting easier. You just defended a loss of 16 Control points. Do you have any idea how much control you get from pentamelding? I have more than that on almost every piece of gear I have from hat to ring from pentamelding.

You can get HQ on Handsaint gear using food, syrup, and HQ materials and that's awesome, but someone who pentamelds Aesthete's gear can do that with NQ materials. Full HQ crafted gear without using HQ materials. I know you know what that means. I know you see the difference there.

You also keep stating over and over that this is your alt which means I'm pretty sure your main is Pentamelded and maybe that's why you want to defend it so much. Sorry, but I AM reading what you're writing. You're just not reading my responses.

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You're confusing time investment with difficulty.

All pentamelded gear does is save time because you can skip making the intermediate crafts HQ. That's not difficulty.

So yes, of course I'm using my pentamelded Aesthete when on my main. I need to have it for Expert regardless so might as well take advantage of the time savings it offers when doing other crafting. There's no point in keeping a second set of gear that's just going to cause me to waste time without improving the end result.

Why such a huge chip on your shoulder over pentamelding? If you don't want to be bothered with pentamelded gear, don't use it. Use Landsaint instead. You'll still be able to make HQ items. If the additional time required bugs you, then use pentamelded gear.


You want to know the real difficulty in crafting? It's knowing how to use your actions to complete a craft instead of just following a guide someone else has written.

Take away macros and most crafters would be at a loss. Not even pentamelded gear would save them when they're randomly smashing buttons and hoping it works (though the game deciding to proc HQ despite quality only being at 6% might).

What else would make crafting more difficult? Randomize the progress/quality requirements each time you start a craft so what you did the first time won't work the second time.

So let's make crafting difficult by removing macros and randomizing requirements. I've gotten plenty of practice thinking on the go thanks to Expert so I'm game for the challenge.

Are you?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Are you?

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Not really. Can you imagine having to make your raid potions like this?

In order for the randomization to mean anything, starting from 0 would effectively be a death knell without the expert crafting conditions coming into play. For the sake of argument.

Lets say currently craft macros land you in 125% of what you need for quality. Seems reasonable for overstat and 100% guaranteed macros. Obviously macros are CP inefficient and don't take advantages of goods. So you're more likely to get 250-350% of the quality requirement without expert conditions if you try.

So in order to break macros, you just need to set the bar at 125% what it is currently, and add a randomizer of 0-25%.

Of course, that only breaks speed macros. Safety 100% macros are an entirely different beast. I personally didn't update some and got to see what it could do when gear upgraded, and we're talking ranges of like 150-225% of the needed quality in long, 3-4 macro set ups.

So now you need to adjust the rate up to around 200% of what we have currently and apply the randomizer (or even don't).

But you know, I bet you could still macro it higher, so to break macros completely, you'd have to set the randomizer closer to 225-250% of the base requirements, and lock people in at the start so they can't just back out.

Not going to lie. That doesn't sound fun to me.

And by 'macros', I don't mean in-game macros. Macros only automate what you're going to do anyways. So I'm just manually inputting my 47 step solution and eating the 5-15% chance of NQ potions each time because changing that up to a potential 35-72 steps based on RNG to get 100% is plain and simple not worth my brainspace.

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Originally Posted by Nabril

Do you want it to be like savage content where you have 0.5 seconds to push the next button determined randomly before the whole process fails and you lose all those rare ingredients?

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SQEX: "we'll make the highest end crafting just a series of QTEs. Haha just kidding... unless?"

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You're confusing time investment with difficulty.

All pentamelded gear does is save time because you can skip making the intermediate crafts HQ. That's not difficulty.

So yes, of course I'm using my pentamelded Aesthete when on my main. I need to have it for Expert regardless so might as well take advantage of the time savings it offers when doing other crafting. There's no point in keeping a second set of gear that's just going to cause me to waste time without improving the end result.

Why such a huge chip on your shoulder over pentamelding? If you don't want to be bothered with pentamelded gear, don't use it. Use Landsaint instead. You'll still be able to make HQ items. If the additional time required bugs you, then use pentamelded gear.


You want to know the real difficulty in crafting? It's knowing how to use your actions to complete a craft instead of just following a guide someone else has written.

Take away macros and most crafters would be at a loss. Not even pentamelded gear would save them when they're randomly smashing buttons and hoping it works (though the game deciding to proc HQ despite quality only being at 6% might).

What else would make crafting more difficult? Randomize the progress/quality requirements each time you start a craft so what you did the first time won't work the second time.

So let's make crafting difficult by removing macros and randomizing requirements. I've gotten plenty of practice thinking on the go thanks to Expert so I'm game for the challenge.

Are you?

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Sure. Just make end game crafting the same as expert and also remove pentamelding. You yourself just said you need to pentameld to do expert so let's see you do it without it. Same difficulty and no pentamelding. Tell me that you wouldn't find it difficult.

Oh and random does not equal skill.

NOTHING in crafting can be made to require skill unless they programmed in the need for a complex series of equations that built on each other in order to force the crafter to have to work out some complex math with a series of timers so that he or she would have to work quickly to beat.

THAT is the definition of skill. Not waiting to see which button is highlighted next or simply the inability to use a macro.

Don't confuse tediousness with skill. Also, I reiterate- drop your pentamelds for expert crafting or stop complaining about it all being too easy.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Not going to lie. That doesn't sound fun to me.

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I don't anyone would find it fun. But the complaint was things are getting to easy and crafting needs more difficulty so it was a suggestion to address that.

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Originally Posted by Nabril

Sure. Just make end game crafting the same as expert and also remove pentamelding. You yourself just said you need to pentameld to do expert so let's see you do it without it. Same difficulty and no pentamelding. Tell me that you wouldn't find it difficult.

Oh and random does not equal skill.

NOTHING in crafting can be made to require skill unless they programmed in the need for a complex series of equations that built on each other in order to force the crafter to have to work out some complex math with a series of timers so that he or she would have to work quickly to beat.

THAT is the definition of skill. Not waiting to see which button is highlighted next or simply the inability to use a macro.

Don't confuse tediousness with skill. Also, I reiterate- drop your pentamelds for expert crafting or stop complaining about it all being too easy.

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Expert was designed specifically with pentamelded gear in mind. Take away the pentamelding and SE would lower the progress/quality requirements to what they feel is appropriate to Handsaint gear.

But thanks for briging up Expert, it supports another point I mentioned earlier about how HQ material have more of an impact on reducing difficulty than pentamelding. We're not allowed HQ materials in Expert. HQ materials can grant up to 50-75% quality increase by themselves on other recipes. That means no effort other than to complete progress and you've got a 50% chance of getting a HQ result. You don't consider that making things easy?

Part of the appeal of MMOs is the player ability to customize their character. Pentamelding allows that. Scrip gear doesn't. Why would you want the option removed?

You're still not explaining why you have a big chip on your shoulder over pentamelding.

I never said RNG was skill. How you choose to react to RNG - that is skill. Do you make a good choice or a bad one?