Ranged DPS, choose a weakness that would justify a buff

I'll take not allowing gcds while moving but to make it up to them I expect brd/dnc be equal Sam dps and mch to be defacto best dps since every other job would be allowed to use gcds while moving while range cannot and then enjoy the delicious salt that'll rain down from such an idea forcing melee and casters to deal with range mechanics.

At the same time enrages would be tuned upwards due to no longer having such a high deficit between range and other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

And this is why I can't take you "make ranged great again" crowd seriously...

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this.

SOOOO much this. I mena you start a thread where you specifically ask for WEAKNESSES and then your like 'Nah that weakness sucks'
Until 5.1 NIN was stuck in TCJ for 6 seconds on average. ping dependent. And yeah. as Lastelli said no single move of BLM requires 7 seconds. But a chain of moves does. and BLM need to chain such moves without moving for max potential output. The suggested MCH change would work much the same.

Also Yalms are actually pretty easy to gauge, and like any other skill its a practice and learning thing. Thats one you could easily test out with a striking dummy too. if you wanted to make it simpler you could make a rule about only getting the damage bonus outside of melee range, but i feel like that would be too easy

That said as Kabooa noted we need to reward ranged for something special for their class more than anything else, and movement restrictions really probably aren't the best way.
I really do think that range restrictions are, or at the very least like discussed bonuses, are the best choice.

Melee are generally rewarded for positional s. Do you need to do positional s? no. So on occasion you give them up for mechanics. Melee also need to stay in range. Do we always get to? no, and every time we are forced out we have to adapt and change our rotations and alignments.
Casters are supposed to not move. Do they always get to? Absolutely not haha. They have some utility type skills to mitigate the losses of doing so, but they are still losses regardless
Ranged could be very easily be given restrictions within the boss hitbox as a downside (can't use certain moves while standing in the bosses circle) standard dmg outside of the circle, and for being 5 yalms+ away a bonus to damage on their basic moves. This would increase the skill gap, and could easily be designed to be a bigger buff than a nerf to the classes.

I do gotta say tho, that going further for class specific boosts sounds nicer and more doable. MCH for example definately can validate non movement or other restrictions with the need to actually , ya know, build machines. but the general range restriction/bonus would be the most simple and well devised thing i can think of.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

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to be fair, while i've got no clue about mch from all i've seen in the forums and on reddit a lot of nins felt quite unhappy with TCJ and 6 seconds of being rooted, so its not like its some great beloved thing others dealt with with pleasure its just the silly physical ranged complaining. Also generalisations are bad, and at least his bard idea really is terrible, like yea its fine to bring forth ideas even if its just in a general "for example, xyz could be done" way but one has to be open to criticism on that aswell than.

BRD:

RgStk & Barrage: Would no longer grant 20% DPS increase and would merge with barrage procing RefuArrw & EmpArrw, adding 50pt to SV, and buffs EA & RA with barrage, 110% dmg, and critical hit for one action each.

Soul voice & MP: Will actually be resources and there will be raid party buffs, foei's requiem, and a miseries' end buff that would build Cost SV to activate and effect the entire party.

Song buffs: will aid the whole party. Haste, MP regen, 20 pt/one stack

New ugly arrow thing and the single target ugly arrow thing that's the same thing: needto do something besides being just two really boring redundancies.exchanging the dot buffs for a stacking dot that would increase SV would be a start.

Apex arrow: Change it's name. Remove it from GCD to oGCD. give it a reasonable set-price to use and not "all of it".


In actuality, It's about the feel of the impact of the job and how they feel to play, and not entirely in just DPS numbers or they will end up like Healers or PLD (until the party just dies). Even adding crowd control or returning wide volley would be enough, IMO. BRDs DPS is literally only a problem for Rangers, and raid contribution needs to increase as does the usefulness of SV

We already have the weakness currently which is shitty support abilities. DNC might be debatable, but technical step cd is too long. BRD and MCH on the other hand totally qualify. Removing resource support utility aka mp regen, shitty single digit buff on BRD, and slaps pitiful defense buff on MCH and call it a day. I thought the amount of support abilities wasn't enough to make them support role in StB already. Didn't expect it to be even less to the point of being laughable in expansion. My friend literally lol'd when he saw the single digit songs added in patch notes. No other job is less support-ish then the three in this role. Tanks and healers got party mitigation, melees got party buff and casters got party buff. Exceptions are SAM/BLM for no support ability, and DNC for having slightly better support abilities.

Also, op should mention how overgeared that DNC/BRD party is. Any trash party comp can be overcome by overgearing high ilvl gears. Without that info, nothing is valid since no evidence shows that double physical range is capable as alternative to double casters or 1 range 1caster comp in fresh week one.

I play physical range because there is no cast bar and melee positional. In HW although I get bow mage concept (and quit BRD) because you need to pull the string to shoot arrow, but what's that MCH doing there posing before firing his gun???

This expansion simplified all battle jobs in the game, I don't know why non-physical range people are crying about physical range being easy to play when the only difficulty left in combat encounter is doing boss mechanics correctly. Every job in this expansion is literally pressing 123(45) consistently while trying to not die. Most of the job complexity are almost gone compare to previous expansions.

Some non-physical range players opposing for range physical role getting buff is like saying they fear they would get replaced because they die all the time for being greedy by not moving in time and insist on finishing spell cast. Don't blame others for playing safe, blame yourself.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

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I was among the Nins that hated it cause ibplayed with some pibg and mine was typically closer to 7 seconds haha. The pain of it tho wasnt just the movement, it is further aggravated by melee range. After completing tcj if the boss is outta range we cant always immediatly weave or connect our next gcd either if we arent smart. AND on top of that if you press a wrong or dbl mudra, or another button, or get forced to move you lose the ability. Casters upon having to cancel a cast never lose the ability to use a cast. Nins canceling tcj early on lose their strongest single ability and wont see it again for another 120 seconds Lack of mobility+positional+melee+lost resource on fail is what often made tcj a pain.

That being said i love how it is now. Learning how and what mechanics i can use it during optimally is always a fun part of the fight.

My point tho is (even tho i personally dont like the idea of immobilizing ranged in any way, except maybe MCH) is that in reality a 6 second rare standstill on a ranged class wouldnt be the the end of the world and isnt comparable to the problems tcj faced.

Also... that still doesnt cover tcj interactions. There was also the caveat of delaying tcj often delayed trick back then and it reset our other mudra/ninjutsu resource. Old TCJ was probably the most difficult skill to use perfectly in the game in its terrible old version.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

this.

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I indeed asked for a weakness, not for a throwback.
We have so much years of different gameplay; Flamethrower from SB and TCJ, despised job mechanics and the "Weakness" is to add more of that.
It's like asking for more Anatman to nerf MNK and expecting a smile.

As for positionnals, reminder that hitting the front of the boss is not as much of a loss and doesn't involve mechanics.
And on top of that, the idea is build in the context of a Ranged alone, no in 8 man teams which will create conflicts between Melee uptime and "Ranged Uptime" strategies.

As I said the idea is good but it cannot work in FF XIV.
Also on the opposite I proposed oGCDs/GCDs to be melee ranged and that wasn't took in account, the answer was directly "And this is why I can't take you[...]".
It's meant to be an exchange, it's criticisim. Every idea is bad until it is polished.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

So, how can we reform this?

DNC: Can be left as is, but needs consistency for Esprit Gains and Improvisation being a static number, not dependent on party.

BRD: Somehow find a way to detach the heavy reliance on raid buffs for BRD, and give them something to build towards. Apex Arrow is a mockery given how it has such low damage early on; I'd rather it were an actual oGCD that does not have a gauge. A potential fix - Apex Arrow Potency: 800, 90s CD. Deals damage in a line in front of you.

Maybe find a way to tie Apex Arrow CD usage to Song efficiency to compete with DNC.

MCH: In desperate need of something that isn't Queen. I've been reconsidering Ammo, but unsure what they could do to reform MCH.

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Dancer: Keep the espirit generation as is, but add another layer. Every X seconds, a dancer visible only pick up forms near you or your dance partner at some distance away within the area / arena. This pick up grants a static amount of Espirit. You can have a maximum amount active, allowing both improved generation and the ability to stockpile them for burst phases. The act of picking them up is the dancer flitting about the field, but in a controlled manner.

Bard: Rather than a stand alone OGCD, how would you feel about it being tied to Songs?

Apex Arrow
[Ability or GCD]
Effect: Ends the current song, dealing X potency in a line. Deals Greater Potency with less song duration. Reduces cooldown of other Songs based on duration remaining.

We'd also change Songs to not require a target (Just combat, to avoid prepull shenanigans that they've been trying to get rid of). Fold the potency into Apex Arrow.

Rather than being a rather rote song rotation, Apex Arrow lets you adjust it a bit more. On long transition phases, you can use the least valuable song available to you, tick it down, and open with a fully powered Apex Arrow.

Machinist: I not really in the camp that I think anything is outright wrong with it, other than a few action changes (Flamethrower). Plus I've read mixed sentiments when it came to Wildfire and robot. So I'mma spitball this one, taking a more refined version of what I suggested in the other thread.

Air Anchor
Weaponskill
Recast: 40
Fires heavy chains at the target.
Point Blank [0-5]: 700 potency and 20 Battery.
Mid Range [6-15]: 930 Potency and 10 Battery.
Long Range [16-Max]: [X] Hits of [Y] Potency. (Totals 1160)

Every 10 Battery is worth 230 Potency (1 Robot Attack of 150+ 80 to the final hit). This effectively makes the ability equal at all ranges, however, as you might notice, they suddenly have very clear cases of extra gain.

A 930 Hit is a better Reassemble target than Drill. A multiple hit weaponskill is a better GCD to fit into Wildfire. The robot is never bad, and this doesn't change Machinists's default.

This is the same idea of priority conflict I've suggested in the Monk for Chakra and Greased Lightning. Air Anchor's value fluctuates (and where you need to use it from flucutates) based on the status of your other cooldowns.

How does that sound?

Here's a weakness:

Having to put up with melee complain about putting up with uptime issues and such, and in exchange, actually having some advantage over them in a fight once in a while, instead of having melee outdo them constantly in the hopes that ranged don't realize that 'melee should do more damage' is only a valid argument in the context of against a dummy.