SE, don't nerf SMN's DoT potency. Remove Tri-Disaster's Reset Mechanic First.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I'm not so sure of that.

One of the things that wrecked the SMN in Stormblood was nerfing those DoT potencies because they quite literally affect the job all the way up and down the chain through ALL CONTENT... NOT just in some Savage fight somewhere.

If this is an upper level issue, then you have to select ONLY the part that is the upper level issue or you wreck the thing all the way up and down the chain.

Nerfing the base damage on Tri-Disaster impact itself would be something that only affects high levels. But DoTs themselves end up hosing the things up all the way down to the base level because it literally is the base level of the job.

That's quite literally what crushed the job in the beginning of Stormblood. And the same thing will happen.

This was the warning I gave LAST TIME around... they did it anyway and sure enough it did exactly that, so they had to go back and fix it again by adding other things like Outburst to account for it and adjust BANE again back to where it was or at least close to it.

You are going to have to select something else to nerf, because those DoTs are integral to the entire job all the way up the chain.

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The problem is that it assumes that the devs care about job balance, game feel, or really any aspect about the jobs at all at anything but max level. Just off the top of my head Black Mage at level 50 is pretty weak all around because it's balanced around Fire IV and Flare spam as its damage sources but all it has for single target are Fire and Fire III which are balanced as being Buff Upkeep skills, and it can't Flare Spam for AOE until the 60s. Dragoon is another example at 60 because Blood of the Dragon's duration is balanced around having two combo finishers to extend it so it feels wonky. Monk suffers at 50 from not having formshift in basically all content and a long cooldown on PB that might make sense at level 80 but just hamstrings it at 50 if the boss jumps too frequently (see Titan Hard). Pretty much all ARR jobs are weaker at low levels than Stormblood/Shadowbringers jobs because of 4/5.0 jobs have extremely powerful single target and AOE actions at low levels while similar actions aren't given to those jobs until way later.

Like you say that this is breaking the game balance at lower levels, but the balance at low levels is about what you'd expect from a three legged stool.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

just buff Blm (a bit) and Rdm (a bit more), instead of nerfing Smn

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The answer to power creep is not more power creep.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You mean all the content Summoner cleared before they got an effective 20% damage boost?

They'll be fine.

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Look man, I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't already seen it happen before.

This is not something I just pulled out of my rear end here. I made the mistake last time around of "assuming" it would be fine.

It was clearly not.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Look man, I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't already seen it happen before.

This is not something I just pulled out of my rear end here. I made the mistake last time around of "assuming" it would be fine.

It was clearly not.

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Summoner's problem is never its DoT damage at the start of expansions. The problem is that each expansion they take hard 90 degree turns in the Job's design and flow. Go back through and look through Stormblood patch notes.

At no point was DoT damage ever increased. From the start of Stormblood to the end, the rank 3 dots were 50, which at the time was mostly equivalent to what Summoners had in Heavensward with Bio + Bio II + Miasma I.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Summoner's problem is never its DoT damage at the start of expansions. The problem is that each expansion they take hard 90 degree turns in the Job's design and flow. Go back through and look through Stormblood patch notes.

At no point was DoT damage ever increased. From the start of Stormblood to the end, the rank 3 dots were 50, which at the time was mostly equivalent to what Summoners had in Heavensward with Bio + Bio II + Miasma I.

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No it did decrease and in a drastic measure. It went from Bio + Bio II + Miasma + Miasma II + Shadowflare stacked and all ticking... down to only Bio and Miasma with escalating steps no longer stacked.

It was so bad they eventually added Outburst which USED to be called "Tri-Bind" which was originally only a dinky little 20 potency AoE prior with a "Root" type addition to it.

That was changed to eventually become the 90 potency AoE it is today to account for all that lost damage. And this doesn't even get into Bane.

There is a whole host of things that had to be changed because that tiny little nerf hosed up everything all the way up the chain.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

No it did decrease and in a drastic measure. It went from Bio + Bio II + Miasma + Miasma II + Shadowflare stacked and all ticking... down to only Bio and Miasma with escalating steps no longer stacked.

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The only point worth anything here is Shadowflare. I can't remember which version Stormblood had, but every iteration of it for potency is made up by having one demi summon per trance.

Summoner's problems are not DoT damage.

It all comes down to PPS in the end - Where as removing Tri-Disaster's reset isn't just PPS, it's gameflow.

Again - Unless Summoners hate tri-disaster resets, it makes no sense to alter game flow to achieve the same goal of a DoT reduction.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Summoner's problems are not DoT damage.

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That's not what I'm getting at my friend.

The point is not that they need MORE DoTs... the point is, that nerfing the DoTs causes catastrophic damage to the job in ways you cannot foresee and will end up having to fixed later.

This is what we learned over that.

You have to pick something other than the DoTs to nerf because of how integrated and critical they are at all levels.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

That's not what I'm getting at my friend.

The point is not that they need MORE DoTs... the point is, that nerfing the DoTs causes catastrophic damage to the job in ways you cannot foresee and will end up having to fixed later.

This is what we learned over that.

You have to pick something other than the DoTs to nerf because of how integrated and critical they are at all levels.

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Nah. They're going to pick DoTs, adjust them down to maybe 45, 40 potentially with a slight boost to Ruin, and Summoner will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

That's not what I'm getting at my friend.

The point is not that they need MORE DoTs... the point is, that nerfing the DoTs causes catastrophic damage to the job in ways you cannot foresee and will end up having to fixed later.

This is what we learned over that.

You have to pick something other than the DoTs to nerf because of how integrated and critical they are at all levels.

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This speaks true, but to be fair they're mainly going to focus on the 3rd iteration and not touch anything else below it. That way, it won't impact the experience when you're leveling. However, as OP stated, there needs to be a change to Tri-D. Ever since they slapped 300 potency on it, it's interrupted the original use of it, which was only for reset purposes and not pure damage. Reverting it to having no potency would fix SMN's contribution issue since the Snapshotting of Buffs can be looked at at a separate time when they're going into 5.4 or 6.0.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

This speaks true, but to be fair they're mainly going to focus on the 3rd iteration and not touch anything else below it. That way, it won't impact the experience when you're leveling. However, as OP stated, there needs to be a change to Tri-D. Ever since they slapped 300 potency on it, it's interrupted the original use of it, which was only for reset purposes and not pure damage. Reverting it to having no potency would fix SMN's contribution issue since the Snapshotting of Buffs can be looked at at a separate time when they're going into 5.4 or 6.0.

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Remember Tridisaster used to give Ruination.

Ruin didn't get the potency folded into it after its removal, Outburst did. The 300 upfront potency is the same as if you made perfect use of Ruination (15 seconds, 6 gcds, +50 per gcd used on Ruin)

While the change made it easier to always get the full benefit, it also isn't just a flat +900 every two minutes. Removing the potency with nothing coming back is nearly the same as losing out on two Demi Enkindles.