Upcoming ninja changes for 5.08 and 5.1

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Originally Posted by Drayos

This isn’t true, in games such as WoW it was common for rogues/assassins to have abilities which increased damages itself and others did. Making targets vulnerable etc etc.

The difference is this game takes RDPS into account. And no. It wasn’t “said” it was proven by speed kills. Ninjas we’re requirement in a perfect comp. this isn’t fixable but just saying “oh wow well ignore it” isn’t the answer either.

I hope they nerf TA to 120 sec CD bringing its rdps to 450. And letting it be buffed up in pdps.

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The thing about wow, is that people who were the top were the ONLY ones to do number crunching with such things in mind (dont remember rdps being something talked about back then)

WoW had other ways to make you want a particular class. And the buffs/debuffs they gave while nice werent "OMG SO IMPACTFUL", but it helped. Often you had wanted one of every class if you could manage it (before the amount of classes went up) for maximum raid buff, but majority of the player base, didnt have the option to pick and choose (what was best) and often, only certain specs of certain classes were deemed "unviable" like Sub rogues before the Cata rework as an example. It didnt matter they provided crit to everyone, it didnt matter they increased everyones damage with hemo or expose armor, it didnt make up for the lacking sustain they had.

This one takes rdps into account, which is good, but the issue with being able to see rdps on fflogs now, is that ppl think that is what you should balance around, and it isnt.

Pdps, sam should be king by a decent margin at lower percentiles, but as you go up in percentile (people who synergize more) those with dps utilities start making up the difference, where if you have PERFECT synergy and everything go right, should pull ahead (rewarding the whole raid for working harder). Not a lot, but to make it worth consideration to take them.

But ppl worry about that, if rdps is higher than a pure pdps then why bring the pdps. Imo, at higher percentiles pdps people sjould bring enough that you want them WITH the higher rdpser, because thats HOW they get high rpds.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

This isn’t true, in games such as WoW it was common for rogues/assassins to have abilities which increased damages itself and others did. Making targets vulnerable etc etc.

The difference is this game takes RDPS into account. And no. It wasn’t “said” it was proven by speed kills. Ninjas we’re requirement in a perfect comp. this isn’t fixable but just saying “oh wow well ignore it” isn’t the answer either.

I hope they nerf TA to 120 sec CD bringing its rdps to 450. And letting it be buffed up in pdps.

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NIN wasn't a top-tier rDPS by the end of Stormblood. Only one NIN across the top 20 speedruns for each Alphascape boss was highest in rDPS among its party. In a SAM-optimized comp, NIN was used, but provided less rDPS (tDPS, if you want to be clearer in the indirect vs total contribution distinction) than SAM. Every comp which was optimal for any other job would include jobs which would outperform NIN at the highest levels of play, even if that comp was also optimal for the NIN itself. They performed well across virtually all compositions -- though still in burst-alignable compositions better than ones with less punctual or more flatly sustained damage -- but were the masters of none (although within a usually negligibly small distance from mastery).

The whole idea of a "selfish DPS" is completely backwards. A NIN performed its best when not only it performed to the highest level, but its team did, too. A SAM will do a SAM's contribution regardless of the party. It does its contribution -- the same contribution -- affected only by damage-adjusted jump or phase-shift timings. A NIN, by having so much of its contribution carried by its team, requires high party performance as well.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

And that comes back to my original concern... If they cant get people to understand that meta isnt always meta, then they should rework or remove TA. And make the DPS up to the current level of difficulty.

*Mic Drop*

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Why should we remove iconic design still enjoyable to many just because it's overestimated by the informational equivalents of human centipedes? Why should job design pander to games of telephone and ill-informed or obsolete regurgitation?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why should we remove iconic design still enjoyable to many just because it's overestimated by the informational equivalents of human centipedes? Why should job design pander to games of telephone and ill-informed or obsolete regurgitation?

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*looks around the forum*

*looks at Camera*

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

The MNK changes was justified because of it being harder to play than SAM for sure. But they should have showed the same love for NIN. Make them up there with MNK.

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Actually, the Monk buffs epitomizes why balancing based on job difficulty or complexity doesn't work. Samurai is supposed to be the selfish DPS that offers nothing but raw damage yet Monk obliterates it in every aspect. It offers better personal damage, raid DPS and even some party utility with Mantra. Speaking purely pragmatically, Samurai has been rendered worthless because Monk does everything better. The same issue currently plagues the Casters. One could argue Summoner is far harder to play than Black Mage yet the latter dominates it all because the devs are once again obsessing over Raise as a utility.

Put simply, job complexity should only exist for aesthetic and enjoyment. A lot of people previously attracted to Ninja enjoyed it being a harder job to master while still feeling impactful. Simply buffing it to kingdom come accomplishes nothing except to push out another job. Stormblood showed exactly that, where the three overwhelmingly preferred jobs were Ninja, Dragoon and Bard because they all synergized better than anything else. Does that mean Trick Attack needs to go? Maybe. I do think the devs overcompensated because they're afraid Trick will cause Ninja dominate once again. So that needs to be addressed one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Frankly, I wouldn't care that much if some few in tens of thousands of NIN were hacking to complete their Ninjutsu a little earlier than they otherwise could' it'd be visible to those watching (and recording), and would be just as bannable as any other form of speed-hacking. The reward is more than worth the risk. /snip

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Wait what? And now they would have to police that too? That's a very bad idea

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The same issue currently plagues the Casters. One could argue Summoner is far harder to play than Black Mage yet the latter dominates it all because the devs are once again obsessing over Raise as a utility.

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https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29

Summoner has the same amount of usage as Black Mage.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/25 Alphascape
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/21 Sigma
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/17 Alpha

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

(...) make us actual Assassins with actual damage.
(...) Make NIN how they should be. An actual Assassin, a master of dualweilding. A Killer, A lone wolf... Not a glorified team Buff.

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I agree in about every respect.
I main NIN in the hopes that one day, it'll turn into an independent Assassin class.

Off the top of my head, Ragnarok had a solid Assassin design. High speed, high dps, multiple cloaking options, positioning options, poisons, dualwielding - etc.
Here I am playing with mudras, being a TA-delivery system in dungeons, embarrassing myself in raids and throwing looks at SAM that say "hey, you know what? let me try that katana."

I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Ardox

Wait what? And now they would have to police that too? That's a very bad idea

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Given the client-side shift, especially if paired with a slightly shorter animation lock per mudra, the difference would be at most some 700 potency over a ~10-minute fight, and follows under the exact same rules and regulations they already police in PvP.

I'd rather greatly benefit 99.999% of the NIN population, even if it means a (nearly imperceptible) further advantage for the .001%.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

NIN wasn't a top-tier rDPS by the end of Stormblood. Only one NIN across the top 20 speedruns for each Alphascape boss was highest in rDPS among its party. In a SAM-optimized comp, NIN was used, but provided less rDPS (tDPS, if you want to be clearer in the indirect vs total contribution distinction) than SAM. Every comp which was optimal for any other job would include jobs which would outperform NIN at the highest levels of play, even if that comp was also optimal for the NIN itself. They performed well across virtually all compositions -- though still in burst-alignable compositions better than ones with less punctual or more flatly sustained damage -- but were the masters of none (although within a usually negligibly small distance from mastery).

The whole idea of a "selfish DPS" is completely backwards. A NIN performed its best when not only it performed to the highest level, but its team did, too. A SAM will do a SAM's contribution regardless of the party. It does its contribution -- the same contribution -- affected only by damage-adjusted jump or phase-shift timings. A NIN, by having so much of its contribution carried by its team, requires high party performance as well.

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u could argue this with every Job.

What about Dancer and RDM Which sits at the bottom of the DPS List due to Utility they bring and more?.. u cant just gut out Utility for Pure DPSers because of this. Raiding is about Being Apart of a party aiming to achieve high performance. you cannot Just remove this from a game for one job because of these reasons and not do it across the board and we'll slowly reach a point of everyone being a Pure DPS.