Samurai 5.0 Wishlist

Quoting myself from a tank thread:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Imo, Resist down buffs should go. NIN should lose exclusivity to Shadewalker and Trick Attack to some of the other jobs (similar effects don't stack). Battle Litany and Voice maybe should be changed to be both Crit and DH and not stack. Make it so "as long as we have 1 of each buff type available" is viable good set up. Heck, give some of those buffs to tanks/healers so "pure DPS" jobs like SAM and BLM can still "fit in".

Many ways for SE to actually balance these raid buffs so no job edges as "Most wanted". This game has no space for such classification when the raid size only allows for less than available classes (8 members vs 17 jobs).

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I prefer that we keep some "Pure DPS" jobs. Including parallels in the tank and healer roles (A tank that has pure high DPS/mitigation with no utility and healer with high HPS/DPS with no utility). Pure DPS jobs like SAM and BLM could be pumped up a bit more even. And in order to "make" a place for such pure jobs, raid buffs can be made into different versions that do not stack like explained in the quoted post. Tanks and healers might become harder to balance when it comes to high mitigation/DPS vs raid utility because that is hard to balance in general, but one can dream, right?

For example, Gunbreaker can apply "Trick Attack", so by having GNB, you do not need a NIN. (This kinda worked in HW when applying damage down debuffs was a great deal so having DRK and MNK was redundant and having 1 of them was enough). And BRD/MCH carry their own version of Shadewalker. BRD and DRG don't need to be forced to stay in their marriage if they don't want to as their Battle Voice and Litany apply the same crit and dh buff and do not stack with each other. etc...

With pure DPS jobs having their DPS pumped up further and having alternatives to buffs, maybe pure DPS "star players" might become sought after if the group opts to get those buffs from their tank or healer slots.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

A buff to Seigan wouldn't go amiss either... Given that you have to be hit (With Third Eye) to be able to access the skill in the first place, 15 Kenki for 200 potency seems lacklustre given that 4 level prior to unlocking this skill you have Shinten which is 25 Kenki for 300 potency. That's a difference of 13.3 potency per Kenki vs 12 potency per Kenki. At the cost of being hit (Then not using Merciful Eyes for self heal if relevant) with a 15s CD because of Third Eye. Compared to the skill that's usable whenever...

Though, I suppose it's hard to balance because if it's too strong then you'll be wanting to walk into damage for max DPS... Kind of like what happened with DK's in WoW when they made AMS provide resources when it absorbed damage and made them all go running INTO AoE's to do more DPS to much frustration of healers >.>

Would probably be for the best to focus on defensive options from Open Eyes I guess...

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11's version of Seigan was a buff that gave Third Eye a chance to not be removed after it procced. I could see the idea being adapted into 14 as an Improved Third Eye passive that either causes Seigan to not consume Open Eyes or for the Third Eye damage reduction to not be consumed if used. There'd also be an opportunity for them to slightly reduce the number of buttons by causing Shinten to transform into Seigan and Third Eye to transform into Merciful Eyes.

I have no idea how that would look or feel in execution, but I'd definitely like 5.0 to do something that cuts down on the Shinten spam.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

On a side note:

Would be cool to have a charge up mobility skill. You know the one, like every depiction of Samurai has that stand off between 2 of them and then after a pause with both of them grabbing their katanas, they dash past each other and then one of them falls over. It was in the ShB trailer too, the part where it's a showdown between the WoL and Zenos.

Its place would be similar to the Yaten > Enpi combo where you back out and get bonus damage with your ranged skill before you head back in. Only instead of walking or using Gyoten, you can charge up a cool skill to reposition instead ;)

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I like this. Seeing some kind of weapon "spirit ignition" (FF Tactics: Ashura/Spirit Blade) would be cool as well, but I guess that falls under Kenki? Maybe some of the skills from Sword Saint (FF Tactics) could be added, like Duskblade, instead of having to use Invigorate? Something that may also be cool, would be using delayed slashes like the end bosses in The Ghimlyt Dark. If SAM could spray sake and ignite it with sparks from their sword (for DOT) that would be cool as well. I'll admit that I haven't played much SAM, but utility is always nice to have.

SAM & BLM (and to a lesser extent, WHM and MCH) need a seat at the table. Full stop.

I feel that the dps for selfish jobs is not nearly high enough to justify the lack of utility. I always hear that "if you aren't world-first, it doesn't matter what job you do!"

I disagree.

I experience the benefit of my Summoner utility all the time! The utility is often the difference between winning a battle and wiping. If I brought my Black Mage to that same battle, we would not have progressed, even though my BLM dps is much better than my SMN dps. I am a crappy Summoner but my cures and resurrections have saved multiple 4-man and 8-man battles after the healers go OOM or die. Cure/Rez/Buff/Aggro Manipulation, these things are significant.

Every class should bring ONE special utility. The problem is that classes like Ninja and Summoner are given multiple pieces of utility and SAM is given 1 piece of utility (and BLM gets none).

SMN is not much behind BLM, anyway. Likewise, MNK is not far behind SAM. It's in the order of a 5% difference in each case.

A little bit of League of Legends reference

Playing SAM feels like playing Yasuo. He brings almost no utilities aside from Windwall (it's not even for other people. It's his own ultimate defense that he has). Aside from that he's a selfish melee champion that has flashy gameplay. Either he shines so bright or he steeps so low (I'm talking about all you filthy Yasuo mains that go 0/10/0 >.>)

The problem I have when coming up with new skills for Samurai is that, assuming the devs want to keep it as it is as far as "Sky high DPS, low utility", it's kit is basically perfect. The only thing it needs is more numbers on it. Otherwise, it's got an excellent flow to it's rotation, extremely lenient timers for its buffs/dot, by extension of lenient timers its got one of the most flexible rotations in the game, and to top it all off it's movement kit is basically perfect, with DPS neutral movement skills on such a low cooldown that you'll basically never want for a gap closer or a backstep.

Otherwise the only thing you could say it really needs would be some kind defensive utility on the level of strength of Mantra (IE, low or extremely niche) and some kind of 15-20 second self buff that would give it an appreciable burst phase rather than leaving it as a sustained DPS so it can benefit a little more from Buff Stacking like every other job can.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

The problem I have when coming up with new skills for Samurai is that, assuming the devs want to keep it as it is as far as "Sky high DPS, low utility", it's kit is basically perfect. The only thing it needs is more numbers on it. Otherwise, it's got an excellent flow to it's rotation, extremely lenient timers for its buffs/dot, by extension of lenient timers its got one of the most flexible rotations in the game, and to top it all off it's movement kit is basically perfect, with DPS neutral movement skills on such a low cooldown that you'll basically never want for a gap closer or a backstep.

Otherwise the only thing you could say it really needs would be some kind defensive utility on the level of strength of Mantra (IE, low or extremely niche) and some kind of 15-20 second self buff that would give it an appreciable burst phase rather than leaving it as a sustained DPS so it can benefit a little more from Buff Stacking like every other job can.

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This. SAM is damn near perfect in its fundamentals. At its base, at best you might see some additional flexibility and flair in a macrorotational sense.
At present its rotation, while lenient in IA timing, is inflexible when playing at lower Skill Speeds, with only ~2100+ being able to "swing" a Yukikaze Sen. There's more that could be used to free that up while offering greater possible variation to macrorotation, so long as the depth added does not conflict with the flexibility to be offered. This could be something like a bonus effect based on the final Sen created before being consumed into Iajutsu/Hagakure, so long the buffs are balanced enough not to push a particular opener and last long enough (but without offering overlap) not to force Iajutsu usage as early as possible.

Beyond that, all that remains to give to SAM is a bit more control and pizzazz.

Give a target-less movement skill. Give it and Gyoten dual-purpose, deflecting up to 200 potency of damage if it would otherwise reduce you to critical damage and triggering Third Eye or otherwise dealing the regular 100 potency of damage to the first enemy hit and halved with each further. Allow Gyoten ally-targeting for deflection. After Yaten, allow your next Iajutsu the ability to charge back into range for free, though this will consume Enhanced Enpi (now called Twisting Winds [Nejikaze?/Kaifuu?]) upon completion. Allow Yaten ally-targeting to free them from binds and offer them rapid movement in the opposite direction on next attempt. Give Third Eye a lower cooldown but Kenki cost until its full cooldown has elipsed. Strip the enmity cleanse from Merciful Eyes, granting enmity-split (to the highest enmity target in melee range) instead on Yukikaze. It its place, let Merciful Eyes consume Kenki, as Seigan does, for much-increased recovery. And finally, give Seigan a lot more punch.

If we need more pizzazz after all that, use something like the last-Sen idea to offer flexible dynamics to the gameplay. Ka could open a further intensified Haste buff. Getsu could allow strikes to cut away at your cooldowns. Yuki could offer roll-over or partial buff redundancy (replacing a buff with itself gives as much power as if square root of the earlier remainder were added to the replacement within the normal duration, but the duration is also likewise extended). And... combos of Iajutsu's last-Sen bonuses could offer clinch hits, like a Fuma-Oka that could deal ST-viable damage to weave-in, or a crit on next Gyoten to trigger a free cooldown-less Gyoten to chain or next three Enpi at half-GCD cost. Greater difficulty and skill ceiling, but all while making Samurai even more flexibly the master of whatever fight it faces.

And, as a general change, give all auto-attacks the ability to charge for up to a third of their normal interval early or late, releasing automatically if within that span when leaving striking range and giving longer potential downtime during which auto-attack potency is still being generated.

Just keep it a selfish dps, there's already tons of jobs with utility buttons, just make it's dps HUGER I just want more damage for 5.0. Utility be damned.

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Originally Posted by Seraph522

RDM isn't really a "selfish DPS," though; it brings raid utility in healing/rezzing and Embolden, which isn't much outside of progression but is utility nonetheless. The selfish caster DPS would be Black Mage, which doesn't really bring raid utility outside of role actions like Addle and Apoc. It is a relatively simple class to learn and play, which is fine; it's part of the reason I main it.

As for the meta 'weirdos,' that's a little unfair. I don't get involved with EX-level content and higher, but I can also acknowledge that job changes impact hardcore content a lot more and there are people who enjoy discussing that meta. Some do nothing but complain, but you can find the same types of people in casual circles as well. I'd much rather their voices be taken into consideration, since it'll matter more for the type of content they prefer to run.

This all being said, I would agree that SAM should primarily remain a selfish DPS class; if they get any utility, it should be minor so as not to invite nerfs that keep them from their current big DPS focus. I don't main SAM, so specifics would be harder for me to give.

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Certainly an aside, but...

The term "selfish DPS" has always been a bit of a misnomer owed only to fflogs ranking by, frankly, the wrong metrics. At present, we're ranked based largely on how padded our numbers can be because we only look at the raw numbers, not actual contribution or tDPS (pDPS + rDPS given - rDPS received).

Because the "selfish" DPS has no one else to rely upon for its actual contribution than itself, it literally cannot be carried in tDPS. Bad party or good, so long as boss placement and raid CD timings themselves aren't screwed up, it's left to fight for itself in optimization. Everyone else gets... everyone else to raise their rDPS numbers. They can and typically will want a better party to "make better use" of. A "selfish" DPS can only ever hope to be made use of and to live up to those theoretical expectations, which becomes increasingly more difficult.

"I want to join the best possible party so I can do the most possible contribution. Give me both my bois MCH and BRD or bug off." - DRG.
"You have a Caster when we don't need Caster LB? I'm out." - MNK.
"Need more peeps with 2-minute CD bursts. ...Can I get a SAM? Ooh, and maybe a SMN or RDM?" - MCH.
"My numbers look prettier with an AST, SCH, RDM, NIN, DRG, and MCH, but I'll technically provide identical contribution regardless so... whatever you've got?" - SAM.
"I mean, I'm gonna have an AM taxi, right? And, you know where to drop any solo Arrows, yes? If you've got a SMN, make sure they time their first Contagion correctly but other than that, good to go." - BLM.
"Likewise, I pretty well fit into everyone's everything, albeit it not always with the highest contribution possible. So... ready when you are?" - NIN.