Community: The Biggest Loss of 4.0 PvP

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

There are other ways to push yourself towards excellence, for those that seek it. Even on the old system, pvp and pve were so different the knowledge transfer wasn't that great. Attitudes to push yourself maybe, but you're deluding yourself if you think playing pre-4.0 pvp was good way to practice for pve. And it was more of a side mention than an emphasis anyways.

The changes mean that pvp isn't gated by 100+ hours of unrelated quest content and you're not juggling 40-odd abilities. Whether or not you like that is your call, but I certainly understand why SE wasn't happy with it before...

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So we should do the same to 24 mans and specific trials. Warring Triad, and the rest of the large raids didn't have anything to do with 100+ hours of unrelated quest content. Not every ability is used in PvE. Not a very logical argument. Also PvP was unlocked at level 30 in 2.0. Which is also unlocked at 30 in 4.0 so your gating argument is invalid.

And actually, PvP was transferable to PvE. If you can't see it then you didn't really understand it.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

You said you learned to PvP from someone dueling with you, and that community is what you make of it, yes? First, what stopped you from learning back in 3.x? I taught the person quoted and many others back in 3.x. Someone taught me. What made you not try then?

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I don't see the relevance of this question. I in no way said or implied that 4.X provided to me something 3.X couldn't. I only said that you could still have a community in 4.X.
The reason I didn't try it in 3.X? My time was limited back then and I played about once a week so I spent all that time on MSQ. Had nothing to do with versions.

When I did have more time to play, and I found out that pvp gave exp, I decided to try it. YES, I am one of those "exp people", but once I saw how much I sucked I asked for advice. I read a bit on what the game modes actually expected of me. I even hooked up my mouse because I play pve on controller and I found it annoying for RW with all its alliances to try to heal with the d-pad. Will I ever be one of those serious pvpers trying to rank top in the Feast? Probably not, but that doesn't stop me from actually trying and having fun while also getting that sweet exp. There are exp people who do try.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

except we can't when we can't chat and give advice to help people in the Feast

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I'll agree with you on that one, lack of Feast chat sucks. FL and RW still have it. Last I checked though the reason Feast chat was removed was because people complained that the pvp community was too toxic. So it sounds like your old community also had some big negatives. Maybe the people who used to receive that toxicity might feel a little differently about this change than you do (no I wasn't one of them).

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Or when an entire other alliance is filled with bots. Or when the majority of your team just gives up and wants to wait for their precious XP that they were only there for in the first place. Or when many of the veteran players have literally just walked away from PvP, if not the game entirely.

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While I didn't try pvp in 3.X, and I will openly admit to that, I've always been a voracious forum-er and I definitely remember people complaining about not having enough people in pvp. PVP community has to make up its mind. It either wants people who are serious or more people. SE will never find a way to bring more serious pvp-ers, that's just not how the general population is. That being said the serious players can still have a community. They can make LS, make groups, and try to educate the newer people who actually might give pvp a chance on how to become better. Yes a lot of people go for exp, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't try if someone actually attempted to make them better (and not just telling them that they suck and need to git gud).

I've seen some serious people (in 4.X) try their best to lead other people to victory. They engage, explain things during the 1 min prep, and provide guidance along the way. Some people don't listen, that's just how it goes, but you might be surprised at the amount of casual people who will listen and try (and fail because they're still quite new to pvp, but at least they tried)

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Also PvP was unlocked at level 30 in 2.0.

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Good luck finding anyone queuing for the level 30 arena back then.

And, no. Aside from increasingly numerous changes between pvp and pve versions of skills (likely one reason they decided to just separate them like now), the optimization spaces were entirely different. Coordinating burst and CC on high value, low hp targets, exploiting positioning errors, etc is a bit different from fighting a boss with orders of magnitude more hp than you but that operates on a set script, hm?

If you can't see that I don't think you understand much of XIV combat as a whole... Not that it's that big of a deal, really, if all you care about if pvp or such, well, stick with what you like.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Coordinating burst

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How does this alone not apply to both? Single target burst is single target burst. Whether it is to push a phase, burn an add down, or burn down a PvP target. Very few jobs did the rotation change.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

How does this alone not apply to both? Single target burst is single target burst. Whether it is to push a phase, burn an add down, or burn down a PvP target. Very few jobs did the rotation change.

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The principle difference is that in PvE, burst is generally less important than sustain unless there's a specific add or DPS check mechanic that needs to be cleared. 'Burst' is usually a lighter emphasis to align with things like a trick attack window, and it's towards optimizing your DPS over the whole fight rather than sacrificing everything just for that small window.

In PvP, you're trying to kill someone before they or their teammates can react. Or to overcome their reaction. CC is an important combo here as it reduces the change of a successful mitigation/heal/escape. Choosing targets on the fly is also an important aspect here -- perhaps a healer goes too far forward or their teammates have left them open, for example. Or if the healer is busy, switch to an unexpected target and kill it before they can react.
Sustained DPS/pressure has its place but the emphasis is shifted far away. No one cares how you parse in PvP. Picking your target, and timing it so you secure those kills is everything.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

There are other ways to push yourself towards excellence, for those that seek it. Even on the old system, pvp and pve were so different the knowledge transfer wasn't that great. Attitudes to push yourself maybe, but you're deluding yourself if you think playing pre-4.0 pvp was good way to practice for pve. And it was more of a side mention than an emphasis anyways.

The changes mean that pvp isn't gated by 100+ hours of unrelated quest content and you're not juggling 40-odd abilities. Whether or not you like that is your call, but I certainly understand why SE wasn't happy with it before...

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I'd like to give this my full attention in a separate post from the previous one. You say pre-4.0 PvP wasn't good practice for PvE, and I'll agree, they're different enough, but! Before 4.0, you were using the same kit from max level in both. And with perhaps 2 notable exceptions between 2 very different jobs, everything worked just the same. Some things actually held more relevance and use in PvP. And now? I can safely say for as "confusing" as MCH may seem to people, anyone leveling is NOT going to learn how to properly play a PvE MCH from PvP. Not when Hot Shot values are different, the majority of what comprises the kit from 30-60 pretty much isn't there, and when the shot combo is linear in PvP where in PvE it's not.

Attitude to push yourself IS good - look at all the threads in General Discussion lamenting players that perform poorly, and either don't know or don't care. Beyond that, I've said it many times, if anyone was bad at PvP then, hell, if they're bad now, that's all on them for failure to learn. SE literally revamped everything to make it easier, and yet you still get people that just do it wrong. Except now, there's far less punishment in doing it wrong. You know, like when one-shot mechanics don't one-shot anymore. . . then when the same mechanic with a new coat of paint turns up later AS a one shot, people can't handle it. . . Remember T6's Blighted Bouquet? How about when they called it Acceleration Bomb in Weeping City? The old community made efforts to help people learn. PvPaissa exists. Various discords exist. The Wolf Pup's Den exists. Hell, I've written 2 Shatter guides on this forum itself, sharing what I know and learned through experience. . . Experience that many others were perhaps too busy avoiding PvP and buying into the misconceptions of it to achieve as well. And even in sharing that knowledge/experience, even where it's relevant to 4.0 - say, MCH basics as the job plays in PvP now - we still have pre-loading MCHs before matches.

I don't think opening PvP up to people leveling was bad, and I've said that many places here. I'm not happy that it's attracted players that are only in it to level and have no will to learn or improve, and I'm sure if say, Savage raiding were opened up to the same, many Savage raiders would feel the same. I understand what SE was TRYING to do. But it's how they did it and what it cost to make it happen that we have issue with. If I had a solid answer for it, I'd be submitting a resume to SE today, but I don't. All I can do is speak up, loudly, AS one of the dedicated players from before. Not unlike all the disappointed BRDs of 3.x. Does that help clarify things?

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

The principle difference is that in PvE, burst is generally less important than sustain unless there's a specific add or DPS check mechanic that needs to be cleared. 'Burst' is usually a lighter emphasis to align with things like a trick attack window, and it's towards optimizing your DPS over the whole fight rather than sacrificing everything just for that small window.

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The principal similarity is that in PvE you generally align Coordinated Burst (Opener) just as you would do a Coordinated Burst on a PvP target. Yes you may switch targets on the fly but more often than not you are going to feint and then do the same Opener on another target. You are going to align your buffs just as you would in PvE. You are also going to align your OGCDs just as you would in PvE. As a healer in PvP you are going to learn to be quicker on your toes since PvE is scripted it is easier. Mana management is just as important in PvP as it is in PvE.

While I understand you are mourning the loss of something rare and sweet when it comes to PVP, you need to realize that the sense of community and comradery you had had was rare. Most people have bad experiences with PVP communities. I also know nostalgia is a big thing to fall into, but changes come for reasons you were fortunate enough not to see. I envy you. I wish I had run into a community like this, but in ever game I played, PVP was “get gud” or some guy running up behind me while I was doing something PVE related.

I never was really interested in PVP on other games until I started playing Tera’s Corsairs Stronghold. It had accessability for both people who wanted to kill others and those who just wanted to get in and kill the crystal. You were a team, but you had many avenues for people to chose. People could chose to go kill people, move straight in for the crystal sneaking past the carnage, or you could grab a bomb or tank, run into the middle of the players, and suicide it - taking all of those people with you. It gave accessibility to a lot of different communities; those who liked team based combat, those who liked to go off on their own, and those who wanted to go after more PVE-related objectives. And you couldn’t accidentally end up in there. I’d never had that much fun in my life. Sadly, Tera is aging now, plagued by lack of players, old age, and glitches in the system.

Many of the PVP modes in this game are simpler versions of these, but they make me nostaglic for my old times doing those activities. I understand how powerful nostalgia can be.

As for the 4.0 changes, I believe they were trying to make it more accessible for more people outside of the current community because it was content unused by the greater population. Only through simplifying it, increasing new tempting new rewards, and making it easier for our PS4 community (how do they use that many skills on a controller... I know some buy keyboards and a mouse, but the ones who play on controller in PVE have my eternal respect), that really made the population boom. When you increase the population, you have greater chances of running into the bad actors such as bots, people who don’t take it seriously, etc.

You also gonna understand the strain SE developers were under balancing the skills for our multitude of classes. Making it simpler to balance it, gave them time to introduce new PVP modes. It gave them more time to develop new instead of preserving a all too complicated system with problems they were spending too much time overcoming.

And as for the Feast, SE doesn’t make that type of change unless it is 100% necessary. I imagine chat in Feast was more often than not vulgar, harassing, or problematic. You were fortunate enough not to run into that. But they know from the reports. You do not.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

I don't see the relevance of this question. I in no way said or implied that 4.X provided to me something 3.X couldn't. I only said that you could still have a community in 4.X.
The reason I didn't try it in 3.X? My time was limited back then and I played about once a week so I spent all that time on MSQ. Had nothing to do with versions.

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Then, with no disrespect to your personal circumstances, you don't know what you missed. I wish you could've experienced it.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

I'll agree with you on that one, lack of Feast chat sucks. FL and RW still have it. Last I checked though the reason Feast chat was removed was because people complained that the pvp community was too toxic. So it sounds like your old community also had some big negatives. Maybe the people who used to receive that toxicity might feel a little differently about this change than you do (no I wasn't one of them).

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It is a popular misconception that chat was so largely toxic. Sure, there were bad apples, and I've never tried to imply otherwise, but I personally will stand as example for those "old" players that simply wanted to have fun and win more than I wanted to tear anyone down or insult them. How did we build a community if we were too busy insulting and scaring people away? How toxic was I to be receiving heartfelt thanks from others like above for simply helping them open their minds, or calmly giving advice after a loss? SE painted with very broad strokes on the chat ban, and "The New Chat Restriction in the Feast" is the year-long record of what they said vs what we experienced. I highly encourage anyone to read it before buying into the "people were too toxic" falsehood.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

While I didn't try pvp in 3.X, and I will openly admit to that, I've always been a voracious forum-er and I definitely remember people complaining about not having enough people in pvp. PVP community has to make up its mind. It either wants people who are serious or more people. SE will never find a way to bring more serious pvp-ers, that's just not how the general population is. That being said the serious players can still have a community. They can make LS, make groups, and try to educate the newer people who actually might give pvp a chance on how to become better. Yes a lot of people go for exp, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't try if someone actually attempted to make them better (and not just telling them that they suck and need to git gud).

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To answer the bolded part first, SE actually pulled that off in 3.5. Chat ban aside, they gave the community something we wanted for 3 years, and it was an overnight improvement. Couple that with an update to rewards/reward structure right along side an event that was based on PvP, and it was like they suddenly figured out what they should've been doing all along. Only it came VERY late, and for all that wanted in, lack of knowing/understanding and failure/refusal to learn is what dampened the experience for many.

You say the serious players can still have a community, and yes, we can. But, NOW we have to deal with massive botting, people that don't know and don't care to know so long as they get their reward for trying, and barely trying at that. Now we have less knowledge and experience to go around and help others, and for what remains, it's often met with indifference or defiance. Try to enjoy a Shatter match when you're telling your team not to drop off cliffs to rush to the ice with enemies below (while you're taking out 3 people doing just that - the reason WHY you're saying not to), and having that met with defiant refusal of your "suggestion", and the inevitable wipe of your team. Or try explaining a better, PROVEN strategy in Rival Wings other than "Everyone go mid", and having someone on a chronic losing streak tell you - on a winning one - how wrong you are.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

I've seen some serious people (in 4.X) try their best to lead other people to victory. They engage, explain things during the 1 min prep, and provide guidance along the way. Some people don't listen, that's just how it goes, but you might be surprised at the amount of casual people who will listen and try (and fail because they're still quite new to pvp, but at least they tried)

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I'm all too aware of how willing even random players are to listen to someone who'll step up and lead. I've been that guy many times, and I continue to be. For that reason, I still contend that PvP didn't need to be simplified or made more "accessible". Players needed to step up more, and learn where they didn't know or understand. It was hardly unplayable then, and that was not the reason so many didn't play it. It was very much bad word of mouth, poor-but-widely-accepted misconception (not unlike "ice > kills/everyone go mid"), and an outright refusal to or avoidance to try it.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Attitude to push yourself IS good - look at all the threads in General Discussion lamenting players that perform poorly, and either don't know or don't care. Beyond that, I've said it many times, if anyone was bad at PvP then, hell, if they're bad now, that's all on them for failure to learn. SE literally revamped everything to make it easier, and yet you still get people that just do it wrong. Except now, there's far less punishment in doing it wrong.

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This is a complaint in every pvp game I've ever seen, at least ones with teams. There will always be those that are bad or uncaring (or of such a different mindset that they're perceived as such).

It doesn't necessarily mean that measures to get more players involved are bad. To one person, cutting down the 4 hotbars of abilities might be dumbing it down. To another, cutting down on bloat. But if it gets more people playing, or at least trying it out to see if they like it... Well, it's an understandable approach.
There's one particular aspect of it that, TBH, I really, really hate. I won't derail here with a rant. But in the end, I can understand why SE did it. If it keeps the content alive, then... that's that.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

The principal similarity is that in PvE you generally align Coordinated Burst (Opener) just as you would do a Coordinated Burst on a PvP target. Yes you may switch targets on the fly but more often than not you are going to feint and then do the same Opener on another target. You are going to align your buffs just as you would in PvE. You are also going to align your OGCDs just as you would in PvE. As a healer in PvP you are going to learn to be quicker on your toes since PvE is scripted it is easier. Mana management is just as important in PvP as it is in PvE.

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I think we just have to agree to disagree here. To me the similarities are, at best, the words only -- the actual actions and optimizations are vastly different.

(Well, I agree about post length edits being annoying)