Darkhold really "easy" or merely what we were warned about by Matsui?

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I disagree.

The purpose of my previous thread was to illustrate that a good encounter in a video game should be one that challenges players even after doing it a thousand times.

Learning a fight takes very little time and provides very little content if the fight itself proposes no challenge.

Batraal is a good example. It took us a few tries to learn the fight, and now we kill it regularly with no degree of difficulty.

Batraal however could have been a very challenging fight had he been reworked to provide a bit of randomness to the fight. Maybe he should have run into the eyes on a whim, that would have made it interesting. Or something, ANYTHING that would give the fight something to make a player who had done it fifty times go "oh crap"

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Now you say it was merely learning the fight and then now it is easy. But is it? Or are you merely charity running people through it using a few overpowered players? Do you use a stationary method? Do you not see how that might be negating intended important encounter mechanics which would make the fight significantly more difficult to execute?

Gotta' agree with Mog. That's the very reason why I've only logged in a few times in the past week...stared blankly at my screen, then logged out.

If there was a greater degree of difficulty to it (read: fun) I'd be far more interested in not only repeating the dungeon to help others get gear, but I'd also have a greater sense of urgency in continuing to rank up multiple classes.

As it is, I just can't justify putting in the time and effort into ranking up to do events that are only fun for a week or two tops.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

This thread is not about the ogre's AOE, it is about ghosts and the currently popular strategy employed which puts melee in ghost range for much of the fight.

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I can fight ogre with my LNC at the top and only get aggro from the ghosts if I try to run from AOEs so if you know the mechanics melee dont get aggro.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Do you not see how that might be negating intended important encounter mechanics which would make the fight significantly more difficult to execute?

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That's a flaw in the mechanics if you can negate "intended, important encounter mechanics." It's no different from when AV was zergable for a short period and the devs responded by nerfing BW's effect on him. Hell, that could be said for zerging period in XI.

No, you don't need "overpowered," players to do this btw. Just players that pay attention and can follow instructions.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

First of all 2 hours? What?! Where did you hear we were getting 2 hours????

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Just based off the natural assumption that in order to take something away, SE will have to offer something as good or better in return. Also, its pretty obvious most people and the new team want their FFXI-2, and the abilities I listed are some of the Job-defining abilities we saw in XI. Certainly not limited to old 2 hour abilities though, I'm sure we will see familiar abilities like Refresh or Ballad or Berserk etc. eventually to help differentiate new Jobs from old Classes. Also, I don't think they will be limited to 2 hours CDs, maybe only 20-30 minute CDs judging by the direction these games have gone.

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Second that is not really the opposite of what I was saying, because it was acknowledged (I'm sure) that the dungeon would be more difficult for people without all r40+ abilities, it was balanced I'm sure for them. Most likely the test groups which ran the raid did so with a GLA, PUG, LNC, MRD, ARC, CON, CON, THM setup (wasn't that in the video they leaked?). I just think it was balanced around a much more difficult strategy than the one made popular and employed by people with multiple r40+ cross class abilities (and with setups more like 3x Archers, 4x mages etc.).

What I'm saying is the balance changes had come first, I don't think we would have been as apt to negate so many important (mainly ghost related) encounter mechanics and use stacking. I can't know this for sure, but I like to think that at least this wasn't intentional/will be addressed by the battle changes.

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Well, my comment about being the opposite was more based on this quote below:

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Nerf players, nerf the armory, bring class specialization and uniqueness and suddenly I think darkhold's encounters are not that bad at all.

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I guess you were still referring to classes still, but I was probably thinking of Jobs. And like I was saying, I think Jobs will make the encounter much easier, especially for those who only have a few classes leveled.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

I can fight ogre with my LNC at the top and only get aggro from the ghosts if I try to run from AOEs so if you know the mechanics melee dont get aggro.

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The ghosts don't aggro they are like sea hares they just emit an AOE at set intervals. The ogre is one thing as I can see how you can position him so that melee can be out of range, but what about batraal? Unless you are standing between Batraal's legs with the tank are you avoiding their AOE's there as well? If so then are you not hitting lights as well?

I just think those strategies hinder melee because they are getting hit unintentionally by ghosts. Whereas if the tank moves with the ghosts then melee do not have this problem at all and can get archer level damage without needing heals (or near enough to it to not be a hindrance).

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Originally Posted by Airlea

That's a flaw in the mechanics if you can negate "intended, important encounter mechanics." It's no different from when AV was zergable for a short period and the devs responded by nerfing BW's effect on him. Hell, that could be said for zerging period in XI.

No, you don't need "overpowered," players to do this btw. Just players that pay attention and can follow instructions.

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Or the Modus Veritas zerg where you got an alliance of scholars, one would put a hielix on a mob, then just before the first tick of damage all scholars would hit modus veritas and oneshot any mob in the game, it didnt require you to be overpowered just to beable to listen/read to somone saying 5,4,3,2,1 NOW.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Now you say it was merely learning the fight and then now it is easy. But is it? Or are you merely charity running people through it using a few overpowered players? Do you use a stationary method? Do you not see how that might be negating intended important encounter mechanics which would make the fight significantly more difficult to execute?

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To follow my original idea:

If the fight itself was challenging enough, our group would not be able to take other players through with us. This is how I judge the fights difficulty. It is indeed a "somewhat" complex tank and spank.

This is how I personally would have made the Batraal fight:

1) Remove the area to the south. Force players to tank Batraal in the middle.
This should force players to "watch out" for the eyes creating an ever changing positioning of the group. It would also make the circle that stops the eyes from moving more useful.

2) Make Batraal run to a circle to gain the corresponding buff. (weapon buff or damage immunity)
Players then would have to move him out of the circle, and drop it themselves to remove the buff while remaining out of Line of Sight when he starts doing his conal. Again, this creates an ever changing fight and an element of randomness to prevent a tank and spank. Which it is very close to currently.

Now you have a fight that is never identical twice, can still be explained to new players and will challenge players even after having done it 500 times.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

The ghosts don't aggro they are like sea hares they just emit an AOE at set intervals. The ogre is one thing as I can see how you can position him so that melee can be out of range, but what about batraal? Unless you are standing between Batraal's legs with the tank are you avoiding their AOE's there as well? If so then are you not hitting lights as well?

I just think those strategies hinder melee because they are getting hit unintentionally by ghosts. Whereas if the tank moves with the ghosts then melee do not have this problem at all and can get archer level damage without needing heals (or near enough to it to not be a hindrance).

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I will admit I have done batrall once but in that fight I was killing skeles, once they are dead hitting the lights then engage batrall untill the skeles repop the repeat, didnt get hit by anything except the skeles and the healer assigned to us could cope, until the tank died and we got raped, but that was only because the tank died.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

To follow my original idea:

If the fight itself was challenging enough, our group would not be able to take other players through with us. This is how I judge the fights difficulty. It is indeed a "somewhat" complex tank and spank.

This is how I personally would have made the Batraal fight:

1) Remove the area to the south. Force players to tank Batraal in the middle. (this should force players to "watch out" for the eyes creating an ever changing positioning of the group. It would also make the circle that stops the eyes from moving more useful)

2) Make Batraal run to a circle to gain the corresponding buff. (Players then would have to move him out of the circle, and drop it themselves to remove the buff) Again, this creates an ever changing fight and an element of randomness to prevent a tank and spank (which it is very close to currently)

And Tada! Now you have a fight that is never identical twice, can still be explained to new players and will challenge players even after having done it 500 times.

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Which would be fine, but couldn't they just fix the ghost blind spot/up ghost damage requiring the tank to move and suddenly the fight becomes more difficult to execute since the tank has to joust between two spots (and a healer with them), while making sure batraal stays pointed away from that healer/group. It wouldn't be quite as random, but I believe that is how batraal was intended to be fought, and it is significantly more difficult to execute.