My way to Fix the Markets/Economy

Ok Xystic, here is your post form your link you provided above.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

So before I have to repeatedly correct hundreds of posts everyday. Please understand, at the current time, we have no information to prove which way the economy is swinging. The only people who have these numbers are SE.

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You are stating that there is NO information to prove which way the economy is going. In my above post, i have shown a way to gather the data you are stating is not avail to everyone. To re-state, all that is needed is to pull the transaction history for all items to see market/economy. This of-course is using your "theory/logic" that the MB is the ONLY indication of the economy

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Originally Posted by Xystic

That's not presenting the information. When we have graduates present their thesis, they do not come up and tell us, Birds fly, the information is out there if you so want it. To support your argument, that's your job to present the information, to lay claim that birds fly or in this case the economy has many underlying problems, you need to present us that information that shows us, the community, your findings are indeed supported. Telling me the information is out there but not telling me what that information indicates the economy is going in is, awkward. Then without even looking or presenting the information, you have concluded, the economy has many underlying problems, with zero evidence and at the same time have proposed ways to address an issue we haven't even confirmed yet.

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You conveniently left out a big thing in my quote stating that once they unlock/allow XML coding for the UI peopole can write scrips/applets to run this with ease. Unfortunately, I am not that savvy with XML coding. Below is the full quote:

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

You are right, we as players, do not readily have this information available in an instant, but it is avail through transactional history, its just a pain to gather that type of data in a meaningful fashion. I am sure once they unlock the XML coding we will have people that will try to pull real-time data from the different boards to websites and the likes.

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Also, Please note that theory is based on empirical evidence until technology is avail to scientifically prove. Please see example of Marie Curie and her discovery of Radioactive isotopes. That whole putting x-ray plates near radium and noticing "dots" which were the radioactive isotopes that emanated from the radium. See below link from Wikipedia.

Wikipedia Link

As much as I hate using Wikipedia as a source since it is "crowd-sourced" and anyone can edit it, its the best i could find w/o copy pasting pages from Encyclopedia Britannica.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

Everything is accounted for in the gil in circulation numbers. It is not at the beginning or initial part of the equation. It is the product of the entire equation. Each one of those factors help determine the product of the equation. If you are failing to see this logic then I feel should not advance this concept any further. This is just the basics and you are struggling to understand that gil in circulation is the product of the entire equation, which means everything has already been factored in. Cause if they weren't, it wouldn't be the gil in circulation.

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Please enlighten us with your wonderful equasion which is taking everything into account. Since you are so adamanat that everyone must provide cold hard facts to back-up their claim, please provide yours.

I guess you must have a masters in economics, because all I have are the standard 4 classes I did for my bachelors and no where do I remember where currency circulation is the end-all be-all for economies.

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

Please enlighten us with your wonderful equasion which is taking everything into account. Since you are so adamanat that everyone must provide cold hard facts to back-up their claim, please provide yours.

I guess you must have a masters in economics, because all I have are the standard 4 classes I did for my bachelors and no where do I remember where currency circulation is the end-all be-all for economies.

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I will enlighten you with your "equasion."

In order to achieve gil in circulation you need gil. No gil, means 0 gil at the end of the formulation.

(Gil Provided by Story) + (Gil Generation Methods) + (-Repairs) + (-Warping Fee) + (-All other assorted Sink Features) + (Gil lost/gain from circulation) + (-FC-lot investments) = Total gil a player has on hand to spend

The cost of any item is less than or equal to that number.

(Cost of item [less then or equal to "Total gil a player has on hand to spend"]) - (MB Fees) = Gil in circulation.

Gil in circulation is influenced heavily by the things you claim are missing.

The total amount of gil a player has can also influence his/her spending, also affecting gil in circulation.

A logical summary of this:

You claim economy is doing bad, so we need changes.

we say, please present the information to support economy is bad, so we can agree with you and look into your changes

You say, it exists but we don't have resources too extrapolate it, but eventually will, but economy is still bad so we need changes.

we go what.... so we are going to follow you on a whim?

I continue to try to explain, we need you to present your evidence, not tell us what or where to find it. My entire thread highl-lights it out to the community. You want to battle one side or the other, present the information we need. Don't tell us to go find it.... Its YOUR ARGUMENT, SUPPORT IT.

I think there is one point that needs to be made. With CT, coil and myth gear easily available to everyone, there is no reason to buy crafted gear. There really is no crafted gear that is worth buying, even with materia on it.

Crafting gear is definitely worth buying, but there is nothing worth crafting except food. So there really is no reason to level a craft to make gil other than cooking.

This game desperately needs more valuable crafting recipes and craftable gear. I hope there is a plan to introduce higher ilvl crafted gear soon.

watch them implement the Royal Bank of Ul'dah and credit cards so people start spending the gil they don't own for outrageous amount of fees and end up seeing the NPCs rejecting their business because they develop "poor credit"

oh, wait...

People just need more stuff to do. Even if they're just running in circles, give them a nice selection of circles to choose from. If the players are spending time writing long winded essays on the games forums, as opposed to playing the game, the game developers are doing something wrong. QED. The End.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

You claim economy is doing bad, so we need changes.

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First, please go back a re-read my first paragraph. No where do I say that the economy is good/bad/sideways. I am just trying to provide a solution to a "foreseen" problem.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

I continue to try to explain, we need you to present your evidence, not tell us what or where to find it. My entire thread highl-lights it out to the community. You want to battle one side or the other, present the information we need. Don't tell us to go find it.... Its YOUR ARGUMENT, SUPPORT IT.

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But your thread is basically saying that your proof is that there is no proof. /shrug

In regards to your second sentence,, I am just countering your claim that there is no way to determine which way the market is going. Once again, XML is not my strong suite, but if it was, I would be able to provide the coding to get you this information.


Regardless, here is what I believe has happened in a nutshell, with testable proof, and some extrapolation.

Theory: SE has implemented supply-side economic policies (either intended or inadvertent) to "help" new players to have an equal footing as some of the legacy players (which is, imho, stupid as they should have kept the new players away form legacy servers).

Test/proof: I was able to level my 45 cook from 45 to 49 (approx 1.2mm exp) within 20 minutes via HQ leve turn-ins.

XIV Pads Timeline Please look at the Jan 11th and Jan 12th amount for Culinarian.

Extrapolation: Now, if I can do this for culinarian, what is to stop anyone from doing this for all their DoH classes. Soon, given this "ability," we can start seeing everyone having multiple crafting class(es) at or near 50. With that everyone can create almost everything. SE has basically lowered the barrier to entry which is the basics of supply-side economics.

Solution: My above solution was to mitigate the supply currently flowing through the economy by artificially creating demand for items.

I am trying to find solutions to the problem rather than trying t point out its faults (cause lets face it, anyone can point out faults, but not may can find solutions)

The problem I see with the "Gil in Circulation" model.. How do you separate (total gil) from (gil available for spending)? For example, I have 500,000 gil. But aside from repair purchases and teleporting, I don't spend a dime (due to saving for housing). So does your equation say my 500,000 gil is in circulation, or do I have 0 gil in circulation because I'm not actually spending it? Multiply that by 1 million (or however many players there are).

Gil in circulation, also, does not tell you anything about specific purchases. Say 100 people buy 100 items for 10,000 gil each. Whoa 1 million gill in circulation, the economy must be booming! Would the economy still be "booming" if it turned out those 100 people over paid for their item, and it should of only cost 4,000 gil instead of 10,000? It still counts towards circulation, but doesn't mean it was wise purchase. So just looking at huge aggregate numbers (common problem with today's econometricians), hundreds or thousands of bad decisions can make a good economy?

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here, but there is no one-equation-fits-all answer for this economy or any economy in real life.

Just for shiggles here is another thought experiment, let's say you get the gil circulation numbers. By what standard are you comparing "good", "bad", "average", "amazing", etc, economic performance? How would you determine the optimal amount of gil that should be circulating in each economy? How are you going to enforce the optimal amount into circulation? These are completely arbitrary assessments, as defined by you or anyone else. You could compare this week/last week, month, year etc. But any definition of "good", "bad", etc is completely arbitrary and unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Wulfies

Test/proof: I was able to level my 45 cook from 45 to 49 (approx 1.2mm exp) within 20 minutes via HQ leve turn-ins.

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Humor me and explain how you did this.

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Originally Posted by DarkDedede

People just need more stuff to do. Even if they're just running in circles, give them a nice selection of circles to choose from. If the players are spending time writing long winded essays on the games forums, as opposed to playing the game, the game developers are doing something wrong. QED. The End.

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Wrong, people that constantly complain on forums tend to have too much free time anyway and devs hardly listen to forum posters anyway. Not to mention forums barely even represent the player base as a whole. While maybe several dozen people here keep making the same posts over and over again, everyone else is too busy enjoying the game.

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Originally Posted by Millimidget

Humor me and explain how you did this.

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First, head to the MBs and buy or have a buddy make you the following items:

Deviled Eggs HQ
La Noscean Toast HQ

Note #1: You have to buy HQs
Note #2: for every 1 Deviled Eggs you buy, you should buy 12 Toast. (makaes it simpler later on, trust me)

Now with your stash of food, head to T'Mokkri and choose the following Leve quests:

The Egg Files

Bread in the Clouds

Head down to the Aethyte Plaza and speak with Bango-Zango and do the turn ins. Rinse and repeat as many times as you want.

The leve quest with the toast is repeatable with the same leve, hence why i told you to buy 12 for every 1 egg.