What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Talonk

Can I say something that has been on my mind forever.

Why did we have to tie up a closing loose end with a character that was only around for a patch in the final portion of the story where we should have been defending against blasphemies but instead we move boxes and watch urianger hug the parents of this character who barely had any major impact in the story?

Am I the only one who didn't really care about an ARR character? Of Course I'm talking Moenbryda. She had zero impact on me. And having her parents forced in for 15 minutes of a critical end of story prep it was just more on the fire for bad pacing.

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Really? That was actually one of my most enjoyed and anticipated parts.

I completely forgot Moenbryda existed.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I completely forgot Moenbryda existed.

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She definitely wasn't half as memorable as Nabriales. Funny how all the former colleagues Venat manipulated us into killing were so much more interesting than any scion to date.

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Originally Posted by Talonk

Can I say something that has been on my mind forever.

Why did we have to tie up a closing loose end with a character that was only around for a patch in the final portion of the story where we should have been defending against blasphemies but instead we move boxes and watch urianger hug the parents of this character who barely had any major impact in the story?

Am I the only one who didn't really care about an ARR character? Of Course I'm talking Moenbryda. She had zero impact on me. And having her parents forced in for 15 minutes of a critical end of story prep it was just more on the fire for bad pacing.

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Because, for better or for worse, she remains a big part of Urianger's character. Except she didn't have an impact on us, and that's the issue... WE'RE the readers, not Uribanger.

Still, she meant something to him, she went unresolved for years on end and that part was them finishing a circle. We've seen other characters come to terms with personal grievances and reminisce on where they started and where they now are. Urianger usually only had to do this for one character archetype, that of the benevolent "traitor". He still needed his feelings on Moenbryda addressed, since her death was kind of blitzed through.

See... I see this not as us closing Moenbryda, but closing Urianger's chapter. She was his Minfilia, his Ga Bu. She was part of who he was at an emotional level, it's part of his resolution and motivation. I feel like the intended aspect there was to allow that part of his story to move forward and allow him to have an emotional scene. What they forgot was the fact that unlike Minfilia, Ga Bu, what have you, Moenbryda had zero relevance past loose references here and there.

And I can make it worse. One other thing that no one is mentioning is how they DO still reference Moenbryda after her death... in Ivalice-Bozja... through Mikoto...
1 - They fail at "Show, don't tell", since Mikoto is always portraying Moenbryda as something grander than what she was on-screen
2 - They also fail at making Mikoto remotely palatable. Especially in Bozja where she's the unwitting instigator of doom about three times in a row. So people will either tune out or just outright have a poor view of whatever she has to say on anyone.

So that scene? I can justify it with "The impact was meant to be about Urianger" and that's why it exists. We're meant to see him. However, it was obviously fully centered on Moenbryda, who was horribly handled. Because it's clear they tried to give Moenbryda crumbs afterward. It was just too little, too late, and way too poorly done anyway.

I'd have to disagree on her not having an impact for the WoL. It was her idea to use white auricite to beat the ascians. An idea we continued to use every time we fought them. Sure her time was short lived on screen and imo it's a damn shame because she popped in and instantly stole the show, at least for me.

I do agree though for the wrest of your points though. They really should show more than tell.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I'd have to disagree on her not having an impact for the WoL. It was her idea to use white auricite to beat the ascians. An idea we continued to use every time we fought them. Sure her time was short lived on screen and imo it's a damn shame because she popped in and instantly stole the show, at least for me.

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Then let's make a different exercise.

"Would the results we obtained be the same had it been another character doing it?"

If the answer is "No", then it's because the impact the character had in the scene and overall progress hence is substantial and reflects something on the character themself than anything else.

Example: "Would impact be the same if the Exarch were, say, Rammbroes?". No, because Rammbroes is largely unafilliated with the Allagan empire, would have a very passing knowledge of the Crystal Tower's true purpose, and he doesn't value the WoL as much as G'raha does. Meaning his resilience and mastery over the Tower would be different and so too would be our interactions with the Exarch vary tremendously.

If the answer is "Yes", then it shows that the character's impact was just to pass on a McGuffin. It was trivial; they weren't the reason why the method, item or experience existed inherently, just the most convenient vehicle for it. Their impact can be replaced, because the core item remains.

Example: "Would it remain the same if Thancred had given us the dagger to go learn how to meld Materia rather than Minfilia?". The answer is Yes. Because the dagger's ownership is largely meaningless, it has no inherent value to anyone. And Thancred himself was seen carrying knives early on as ARR given that he's a Rogue at that time. So it would still remain coherent if he were the one who knew of Mutamix and had sent us there.

We have several scholars from Sharlayan, any of them could have come up with the idea of using White Auracite. The fact that it was Moenbryda is too minor for that to amount to anything else. It's since been established that Urianger and Y'shtola are brilliant scholars in their own right, and likely could have gotten there if a) they had a bit more thought on their part, or b) had the knowledge themselves. While it does serve to characterise Moenbryda as someone knowledgeable, the fact that nothing else about her is established due to her death diminishes the impact. And her easily-replaceable nature in the impact it affords us unfortunately doesn't help. There's zero indication that things would be utterly different had Moenbryda not been the one to suggest it, but someone else instead.

I don't want to downplay Moenbryda, but this is my argument, and unfortunately this is what I draw from it. SHE wasn't important. She was just there to be given something to do as a new Scion recently-introduced to the plot. The important bit was the McGuffin. She was just the vehicle to carry it. Unfortunately, anyone else could have done the same.

And unfortunately, in the grand scale of things, especially past that? It's not that big a deal.

Sure, the event itself is impactful, and Moenbryda IS elevated for it, I won't deny that. But to say that that "impact" had anything worthwhile in the future story regarding her is a bit much. That one scene alone only gave us a means to an end, not an emotional impact. Nothing that made her stand out.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Short for character limit.

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I see your point here, but the answer to me is simply not to kill her off in that same quest line she was introduced in. If all you're looking at is the impact on the story and you're willing to ignore it because "any other smart character could have done the same" then there's no point of agreement we can reach. The game established her as the expert on the substance and credited her with the idea. I'm not gonna try to go through hoops to discredit that. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I see your point here, but the answer to me is simply not to kill her off in that same quest line she was introduced in. If all you're looking at is the impact on the story and you're willing to ignore it because "any other smart character could have done the same" then there's no point of agreement we can reach. The game established her as the expert on the substance and credited her with the idea. I'm not gonna try to go through hoops to discredit that. Sorry.

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Yeah. I agree. The issue with her was that they killed her off >:U WAY too soon!

And yeah, in that one specific example, I am only looking at that scene. I'm not willing to ignore it, I feel like that's the issue here. You're saying I'm ignoring it... but I'm not? Rather, I'm acknowledging that the impact you're referring to is something different than the impact people are referring to.

What people are referring to is a moment in the MSQ where it's clear that the issue is the emotional impact it's left on Urianger. Moenbryda didn't stick around long enough to have such an impact on us, even if it was incredibly sad to see someone cool die. She remained largely forgettable, even if she gave us a method to handle things.

What you're referring to is her having an impact on the plot. But many people have an impact on the plot as well, even more minor characters than she was. You have the guy who tricks people into being tempered by Ifrit. You have Momodi Modi who was part of the plot to assassinate the Sultana. You have the Viis sisters in the Raktika greatwood who explore the ruins with us for a while. You have that shady Namazu who sells people out...

But in that case, yes, more so than half of the ones I mentioned, Moenbryda's impact does stick around. You can argue Ungust(?) also had a similar impact, since without him we wouldn't have fought Ifrit, gained notoriety or even begun to understand our Echo.

The issue is that her impact is still slighted. She's the expert on the substance, sure. But Y'shtola is an Aetherologist... yet she proves capable and knowledgeable in other fields as well, it's likely she'd know as well. Given the influence the rock has on aether, it's likely Y'shtola would have known and afford us that knowledge.

That's the issue. Even in the crowning moment that stuck to us and gave us progression in our quests forward, Moenbryda is a replaceable character. Things don't change even if it's not her.

And given the rest of the conversation people were having.... yeah... not even an emotional impact.

So, no. I'm the one who's sorry because... you're the one who doesn't want to admit that she isn't as important as you make her out to be. Especially not in the way the conversation was about. She does have her importance, of course she does :o SHE is the one who gives us that knowledge, that's what's written. But unfortunately, take a closer look, and it doesn't stand that well.

But still. It's fine to disagree.

Actually the only reason I brought up the plot impact was because it was quite clear that her loss did not impact you specifically. I personally liked her character a great deal and her short time did leave an impact on me and thus my WoL. I had a number of things I wanted to see in Sharlyan and Moenbryda's parents was number 2 on that list.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Actually the only reason I brought up the plot impact was because it was quite clear that her loss did not impact you specifically. I personally liked her character a great deal and her short time did leave an impact on me and thus my WoL. I had a number of things I wanted to see in Sharlyan and Moenbryda's parents was number 2 on that list.

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And that's fine o:

Like, that's perfectly fine, that's valid.

I'm not saying she's a bad character. She's not a weak character. She had more than just Auracite, she had more than just a short-lived presence. She was more, otherwise people would DEFINITELY have forgotten her. If that were the case, that moment on Aitiascope? No one would bat an eye, and I've seen people actually remember Moenbryda faster than they recognized Haurchefant's help xD

But, for example, if you're a fan of Moenbryda, did you enjoy the times Mikoto went on about her? Because that for sure flew under many people's radar even at the time. Mostly because Bozja/Ivalice was considered boring, some because Mikoto is about as good a character as drywall. And what I take from that isn't "Moen sucks so hard that they gave her character development to an underappreciated character lol". It's "The devs still clearly care about developping Moenbryda, even if it's a little bit. It's just unfortunate it had to be through someone like Mikoto.".

Now, the impact she had on you specifically? That I can't speak for. All I can say is that it's valid, alright? But when it comes to the plot itself? Her being so short-lived didn't have as much of an impact on the majority of players as it should have for someone presented with such relevance and spotlight. So while it's totally fine for you to feel attached to this character, the issue is that for myself and for many people, she wasn't handled well. At all. And that interfered a lot with how people received her past her death. Which definitely killed a lot of the momentum she should have had.

So the issue there comes from how the parents scene speaking more volumes about Urianger, the one we can connect to the most and we know more about, than Moenbryda whom we didn't have the proper chance to connect to as well as other Scions.

Keep in mind, this is all purely subjective. Just because myself and other people feel this way about Moenbryda, it DOES NOT mean you're in the wrong for liking her and having a larger attachment. Okay? o: AT ALL.

Again. It's fine to disagree. But I'd argue it's even more fine (is that a word?) to like and appreciate Moenbryda, even if the rest doesnt' as much.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

But, for example, if you're a fan of Moenbryda, did you enjoy the times Mikoto went on about her? Because that for sure flew under many people's radar even at the time. Mostly because Bozja/Ivalice was considered boring, some because Mikoto is about as good a character as drywall. And what I take from that isn't "Moen sucks so hard that they gave her character development to an underappreciated character lol". It's "The devs still clearly care about developping Moenbryda, even if it's a little bit. It's just unfortunate it had to be through someone like Mikoto.".

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I didn't do much of Bozja. I hated Eureka and basically turned my brain off completely for both of them. I have no idea what any character is talking about in that entire side story because it's attached to the Bozja zone which I hate being in.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Funny how all the former colleagues Venat manipulated us into killing were so much more interesting than any scion to date.

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We agree. Venar manipulate chara to kill No Shadow God. So guild now manipulate writer to kill Scallions in the revenge. Is fair.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I'd have to disagree on her not having an impact for the WoL. It was her idea to use white auricite to beat the ascians. An idea we continued to use every time we fought them. Sure her time was short lived on screen and imo it's a damn shame because she popped in and instantly stole the show, at least for me.

I do agree though for the wrest of your points though. They really should show more than tell.

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Same here.

To be honest, a character like her was actually much needed! She (at the time) represented a class/job role that no other Scion filled, was a race that wasn't represented in the 'core' Scion group and had a unique personality which created a pretty interesting 'dynamic' in the group which I fell has been lacking since.

I liked Moenbryda. Just because I liked her personality and the fact she wasn't another blond Hyur, Elezen or another gross catgirl.

Shame she's another academic/scholar type. XIV's world has 50 academics/researchers per square meter and that got old before Endwalker added Old Sharlayan as an MSQ town.

I've heard this patch is so full to the brim with engaging content, 11 days on, that some big name content creator made a video on patch 6.3's most pressing subject: aveyond's comeback forum thread. Apparently our lovely thread has been mentioned in passing, and you know me: every publicity is good publicity!

So here's me shilling our safe Discord for shamelessly defecating on Endwalker's Quite Lackluster Story and our beloved Mommy who did everything right, away from all the… ah, most honored lore masters, who take to new posters venturing into their lair like Hermes's murderwolves to innocent okyupetes:

https://discord.gg/j2MJrdtn

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

Thank you for writing this!

Yes! That was my experience of it. Was so hyped to play EW, looked forward to it for ages since FFXIV had become where I went to try to mend my brain, a place to relax, be social, think and be able to get away from thinking when needed, and be a bit happier. Endwalker hit me HARD and I spiralled badly back into a depression I was already struggling to get out of.

The question "Is life worth it?" being answered with "if you're the right type of person, with only acceptable emotions (absolutely NO sadness or fear!), in with the right crowd, in the right time and place. If not, then no, you're just not strong enough or what we consider worthy". Damn!

Not the message they wanted to send, but that's how it was received by me during play through. Add to it the gaslighting ("they deserved it", "there was no other way", "suffering is beautiful", "it hurt mommy more. Think of her pain!" etc.) and I spent literally months trying to crawl back out from under the dark storm cloud in my head.

I know that's not what the writers intended, EW was meant to be uplifting (others seemed to feel it was?), but for me, it was the direct opposite.

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I want to echo this as well, because for all the people who say Endwalker helped them out of their depression or existential angst – great! –, I need to talk about how playing Endwalker actively made my own clinical depression worse in December 2021.

Coming off from all the emotions Shadowbringers made me feel, the 5.3-5.4 period was the height of my fandom. While I mildly enjoyed FFXIV before, mostly for its antagonist cast and its politics – quite naturally, coming from the evil and edgy fandom of A Song Of Ice And Fire ("NOOOOOO YOU CANT WANT STAKES AND CONSEQUENCES FOR PROTAGONISTS THIS ISNT GAME OF THRONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:") – it was 5.0 that made me finally care more than my basal level of enjoyment, because even though it had just torpedoed one half of the antagonist build-up (RIP Varys Varis and your empire), it made up for that by propping up the half I cared about more by giving them a very compelling and touching backstory and motivation.
Then came 5.2 and 5.3, where my favorite character not only finally stepped into the limelight after having played the role of background extension pack hype man for 6 years, but he did so in the very promising context brought forth by 5.0. It propelled FFXIV from "I really enjoy this and am actively looking forward to news" to "it's living rent-free in my brain", replacing my fondness for ASOIAF and dunking on its terrible live-action adaptation (which, surprisingly, the majority ended up agreeing with after season 8! Oh, how I wish this had happened here…) in all my unabashed book snobbery. I even started browsing Twitter (RIP Tumblr) and downloading fanart of this setting and characters I had grown to love: the deeply human tale of the Unsundered Ascians and the fascinating fantasy setting of the Ancient World, with its undercurrent of a different, incredibly powerful humanity having grown past its ugly base instincts that still obviously live within them, as stated by the charitable PATRONIZING Amaurotine (thanks EN loc!) (btw I'm looking forward to a certain forum creature picking up on this and making an unhinged strawman post about it again). The fanbase's engagement with short stories when 'Ere Our Curtain Falls dropped, while a handful of Twitter clowns hilariously despaired over WHY ARE WE GIVING THE GENOCIDAL MANIACS MORE ATTENTION NOOOOO STOP LOVING THEM STOP DRAWING CUTE FAN ART OF ELIDIBUS EMET AND AZEM NOOOOOO, never reached the same fever pitch again. While I was disappointed in how weirdly rushed Elidibus's character development was in 5.3 – it literally feels like something happened with the writing decisions between 5.2 and 5.3, because 5.3 went into a wildly different direction very suddenly – I was now actively looking forward to what was shaping up to be an epic finale that would bring closure to the character, as his Ascian self, his human self, and as Zodiark.
5.4 came out, and the renewed focus on Sundered Ascians just served to hype me up all the more. Sure, the Limsa/Kobold plot happened I guess, but more importantly, it cemented how different the remaining Ascians could be in how they handle their own identity as reincarnations of leaders of sorts of a long-lost world – perhaps with uncomfortable parallels to the WoL themself – and especially in the context of them losing their actual Unsundered leaders. I always was quite adamant on the theory that Elidibus was not dead, just locked inside the Crystal Tower, because otherwise why even bring up the fact that he is the Heart of Zodiark, the acting consciousness of the "dark god" that's been the centerpiece of the antagonists this entire 8-year arc? Considering that 5.2 had finally introduced Hydaelyn's actual human self as well (and that said character ominously shared her name with a morally ambiguous antagonist of a politically-heavy story), it was a foregone conclusion to me that Elidibus/Zodiark would play as much of a major role in the coming finale as Venat/Hydaelyn. We would learn the full truth of their conflict and see them confront each other while doing justice to both sides, and it would involve some of the remaining Sundered Ascians too – some that want to burn it all down, some that want revenge on the Sundered, some that want to work with us to save the planet and prevent Fandaniel from besmirching their people's legacy.

I was hyped and this was gonna be good.

Then the first teaser for Endwalker came out. I don't know if you've noticed, but you've just watched an Ascian enjoyer write out a wall of text about her experience of Shadowbringers and her expectations for Endwalker while barely even mentioning Emet-Selch by name. Look, it isn't my fault, I like the guy and all. But he died in 5.0, and then he properly died in 5.3, with the accompanying short story calling the latter his last act. Beside the eventuality of him appearing in flashbacks, I was pretty over Emet-Selch. He's had his story, now it's time to let others get the writers' and the fans' attention.
So yeah, Endwalker info started coming out, and the schism between me and the rest of the fandom started happening. I started turning the valve of my copium tank open.
But hey, it was all making a huge point of The Moon. 5.55 literally ended with that shot of the Moon that made everyone who watched either cringe or shift uncomfortably in their seat with their brow furrowed. There was literally no way Endwalker would not involve Moonman McZodiarkheart in its closure of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc with a heavily teased role of the Moon.
The teasers went on and on throughout 2021, and each time I turned to my copium tank.

But look, this isn't all about the abyssal depths of my disappointment in how Endwalker handled my expectations. Yes, it sure sUbVeRtEd mY ExPeCtATiOnS, in that I was expecting a satisfying emotional conclusion to the humanized portrayal of the Ancients in Shadowbringers, and for things that were built up over years to be delivered on properly.

But it's also everything else about it. I expected justice and hope and conciliation between light and dark in Endwalker, and there was literally none to be found. All I found was the most callous of gaslighting and emotional manipulation, dehumanization and dismissal of the setting and characters I loved the most. How am I supposed to take Endwalker in any positive or hopeful way when it is not-so-subtly telling me they were wrong, deserved it and never had any hope? I remember a certain poster of these forums even tried to twist the message of hope and not giving it to despair found in Mitron's Convocation crystal in 5.3 as "evidence of them giving in to despair" – that is how stupidly biased against this very human people people walked away from Endwalker as. No hope indeed (never mind the giant primal of it, I suppose): simply more "they would have sacrificed their entire planet!!!!!" "Zodiark was a blood god who would have kept demanding for more sacrifices!!!!" (as an Elidibus fan, let me just ask here: what are you guys even talking about?? WHAT blood god??? lmao you guys I swear HE'S RIGHT HEREfjqksgfkgfkqsj hahahaha I just hahahaha even Fandaniel says Zodiark is just a construct without a will without his Heart before he jumps in hahahahahaha oh my god) strawmen. Endwalker was meant to be uplifting, yet it barely gave any respect to those I loved at all, which was very much a departure from Shadowbringers. All I got from it was that Hope isn't for everyone. Not if you're the wrong people!

From the moment I finished 6.0 MSQ, I spent weeks with what literally felt a dark cloud inside my brain. I was very thankful I had people who supported me, friends who listened and a life that was otherwise going well at the moment. It felt incredibly silly for my mental state to take such a hit because of a stupid fictional story. What a nerd. Cringe. I got over the worst part of December when my FFXIV friends finally got to completing MSQ and I could unleash my spoiler-laden rants at them – which they agreed with, because my friends are fantastic people with actual taste. I finally had people to commiserate with rather than bottling up how deeply wrong Endwalker felt, because the majority of this Great Community By The Way did not seem to welcome dissenting opinions very much, which only contributed to it becoming more and more of an echo chamber, while Ancient Twitter was, as far as the eye could see, getting super busy gatekeeping depression over their precious plucklypoo scrungly krungly blorbo who lived in a society (talk about cognitive dissonance for so-called Ancient fans), calling anyone who disagreed ableist, and also racist because wow he looks mildly mediterranean I suppose. This very thread here helped me a lot, in fact. Finally, I wasn't insane anymore. There were people who were just as disappointed, letdown, offended by and even depressed over the sad clown show that was Endwalker.


anyway I guess what I'm getting at is that Endwalker was kinda sucky


tl;dr lmaaoooooooo zodiak trance mad his headcanon didnt come true LMAO XD XD I sleep so well at night knowing I have so much more empathy than these edgy villain stans

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Coming off from all the emotions Shadowbringers made me feel, the 5.3-5.4 period was the height of my fandom. While I mildly enjoyed FFXIV before, mostly for its antagonist cast and its politics – quite naturally, coming from the evil and edgy fandom of A Song Of Ice And Fire ("NOOOOOO YOU CANT WANT STAKES AND CONSEQUENCES FOR PROTAGONISTS THIS ISNT GAME OF THRONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!") – it was 5.0 that made me finally care more than my basal level of enjoyment, because even though it had just torpedoed one half of the antagonist build-up (RIP Varys Varis and your empire), it made up for that by propping up the half I cared about more by giving them a very compelling and touching backstory and motivation.

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Wasn't one of the early inspirations for this game ASOIAF?

Or was it just to ride the wave of its popularity and then resort to Disneyfication the moment Game of Thrones started dwindling in popularity?

I legit forgot '-'

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I've heard this patch is so full to the brim with engaging content, 11 days on, that some big name content creator made a video on patch 6.3's most pressing subject: aveyond's comeback forum thread. Apparently our lovely thread has been mentioned in passing, and you know me: every publicity is good publicity!

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Is this real? Popular internet person with tens of thousands of fans or more putting some message board user expressing an opinion they dislike about a video game into a negative spotlight for tens or hundreds of thousands of viewers?
Whoever this creator is, if they did this, it's quite simply bullying.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Is this real? Popular internet person with tens of thousands of fans or more putting some message board user expressing an opinion they dislike about a video game into a negative spotlight for tens or hundreds of thousands of viewers?
Whoever this creator is, if they did this, it's quite simply bullying.

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honestly, didn't even watch it myself because I have no patience for any content creator (or for this game) but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkMbfQZ0BZk

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Wasn't one of the early inspirations for this game ASOIAF?

Or was it just to ride the wave of its popularity and then resort to Disneyfication the moment Game of Thrones started dwindling in popularity?

I legit forgot '-'

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I don't know if there's anything official on this, but certainly, the patch storylines of ARR, HW and SB made me feel very at home, and is there anyone who doesn't refer to that banquet cutscene as "an episode of Game Of Thrones"?

The shift in tone seems multifactorial: the change in main scenario writer, the well-deserved downfall of GoT, the global context of the pandemic perhaps. I don't know how much blame to lay at the feet of the Ancient storyline perhaps lending itself less to "GOT"ness: certainly there were ways to insert a lot more morally gray politicking in Zenos and Fandaniel's machinations, and as it has been repeated countless times in this thread, I also really could have done with the narrative surrounding a certain character being a lot grayer.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Is this real? Popular internet person with tens of thousands of fans or more putting some message board user expressing an opinion they dislike about a video game into a negative spotlight for tens or hundreds of thousands of viewers?
Whoever this creator is, if they did this, it's quite simply bullying.

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I don't consider what Mr Happy did bullying because to do so would imply that I actually hold his opinion in any regard high enough to affect me. I don't. He's just some random guy on the internet and I know that in Endwalker I was fed a story that wasn't up to the quality we should have gotten and they just doubled down on the bad writing across the patch MSQ and side content.

It's nothing more than a pathetic attempt of his to try and paint those of us who see things for what they are as heretics. So be it then.

I dont usually watch Mr.Happy's stuff, just doesnt interest me but I watched the video highlighting aveyond's thread and I dont see whats the problem here? How is bringing a particular topic on the forums for a discussion considered bullying?

He never directly named or stated any vitriol to the OP for the discussion. Are we suddenly being hypocritical here where its ok to criticize something as long as youre not the one being criticized? Are we just being overly sensitive butthurt children over people challenging your takes?

Like...grow up please.

I'm not sure how it could be considered bullying. Looking through the video presented as well as other forum videos on his channel he never actually shows user names. Sure people can go look at the thread and see that, but that same thing happens if content creators talk about posts on any platform.

In any case, I struggle to fathom why we should take anything said by someone who will unconditionally praise the game like Mr Happy seriously. As far as I'm concerned anyone who still defends the state of EW these days is not worth your trust.

I watched through the section where he goes through Aveyond’s post, and there is that one phrase that kinda made me laugh.

“The world’s underlying mythos was built by a race of dying people, one of whom tried to stop the ceaseless sacrifice of nameless people to a god that’s going to be asking for more”

I guess he’s a “lore expert” as well…

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I dont usually watch Mr.Happy's stuff, just doesnt interest me but I watched the video highlighting aveyond's thread and I dont see whats the problem here? How is bringing a particular topic on the forums for a discussion considered bullying?

He never directly named or stated any vitriol to the OP for the discussion. Are we suddenly being hypocritical here where its ok to criticize something as long as youre not the one being criticized? Are we just being overly sensitive butthurt children over people challenging your takes?

Like...grow up please.

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Oh please.

Anyone here being criticized is nothing new, because it's what's happened to us for a year thanks to this great community and its pathological fear of legitimate criticism. Whether it is story or gameplay direction, anyone who ever speaks up has to fight off white knights constantly. Wake up, please.

Honestly, given that I haven't even watched the video myself, nor do I intend to, I just mentioned it in passing to make le funny commentary on how slow the game's content has been getting in Endwalker, and highlight this great community and how it is eating itself. With the backlash over Zepla daring to express a critical opinion of the recent subpar cash shop glam, and a recent video casting doubt on Venat's heroism in the story, it feels like the wind is starting to turn slowly.

I wonder what all the people who came here from WoW's failing story a year and a half ago are thinking…

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Originally Posted by Thenightvortex

I watched through the section where he goes through Aveyond’s post, and there is that one phrase that kinda made me laugh.

“The world’s underlying mythos was built by a race of dying people, one of whom tried to stop the ceaseless sacrifice of nameless people to a god that’s going to be asking for more”

I guess he’s a “lore expert” as well…

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lmao thanks this tells me everything I needed to know about Mr Happy's underlying intent.

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Originally Posted by Thenightvortex

I watched through the section where he goes through Aveyond’s post, and there is that one phrase that kinda made me laugh.

“The world’s underlying mythos was built by a race of dying people, one of whom tried to stop the ceaseless sacrifice of nameless people to a god that’s going to be asking for more”

I guess he’s a “lore expert” as well…

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I should think that someone as invested in FFXIV as that one is would have known that the Luciferian witch did no such thing - she did not in fact rescue the precursors to the Sundered races from being sacrificed to Zodiark. Rather, she turned all humanity into the gelatinous slop that you see at the end of Evangelion which then evolved into those races as confirmed by the QA and the NieR crossover.

Guess he should have payed more attention to the story. Because goodness knows the holes in it are easy enough to see.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

With the backlash over Zepla daring to express a critical opinion of the recent subpar cash shop glam, and a recent video casting doubt on Venat's heroism in the story, it feels like the wind is starting to turn slowly.

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Zepla made a video questioning Venat's heroism? I'd be interested in watching her take on it but can't find the link, would you share it please?

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

In any case, I struggle to fathom why we should take anything said by someone who will unconditionally praise the game like Mr Happy seriously. As far as I'm concerned anyone who still defends the state of EW these days is not worth your trust.

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Thats a sad attitude to take. Its like any of us who enjoyed Endwalker saying that anyone negative or expressing valid constructive criticism is not worthy of engagement. The idea that all of us who enjoy the last expansion/previous patches must be blind white knights who repress the truth is a poor stereotype.

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

Zepla made a video questioning Venat's heroism? I'd be interested in watching her take on it but can't find the link, would you share it please?

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Ah, no, sorry, two different things. Here's the bit from Zepla's stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHI1YL7850g
The video kind of questioning her is someone else entirely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad6O0vSKWps

Not that the guy is entirely right in his assessment either, IMO. But the comments are… interesting…

Ah I misunderstood, still though, thanks for the links the second one looks to be worth a watch.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I should think that someone as invested in FFXIV as that one is would have known that the Luciferian witch did no such thing - she did not in fact rescue the precursors to the Sundered races from being sacrificed to Zodiark. Rather, she turned all humanity into the gelatinous slop that you see at the end of Evangelion which then evolved into those races as confirmed by the QA and the NieR crossover.

Guess he should have payed more attention to the story. Because goodness knows the holes in it are easy enough to see.

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How one enjoys or interprets the story does not speak for the actual quality of the framework. Just like people have opinions about everything both good and bad. Acting as if your opinions are absolute fact is the biggest fallacy. I dislike Shadowbringers heavily due to the missed potential but recognize its strengths for the story it tried to tell and it works with a lot of people.

Does that mean that ShB's story was shit? No, it clearly wasnt and I dont recognize it was crap even when I dislike it. You on the other hand have this vitriol to anything EW related and it clearly shows how off the wall biased you are with your hot takes. Give me a break.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Its like any of us who enjoyed Endwalker saying that anyone negative or expressing valid constructive criticism is not worthy of engagement.

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Sadly, when you have a sizable and vocal portion of a group of people prove themselves to not be worth engaging with, it builds up the sentiment that that group isn't worth engaging with in general. The solution would be for people who like Endwalker to show that there are good faith people to be found amongst them. Although I believe that more of them must exist somewhere, I have yet to see more than a handful of pro-Endwalker people who are not also lunatics, people who argue in bad faith, etc.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Sadly, when you have a sizable and vocal portion of a group of people prove themselves to not be worth engaging with, it builds up the sentiment that that group isn't worth engaging with in general. The solution would be for people who like Endwalker to show that there are good faith people to be found amongst them. Although I believe that more of them must exist somewhere, I have yet to see more than a handful of pro-Endwalker people who are not also lunatics, people who argue in bad faith, etc.

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I have actually seen one person like this in the past few weeks! On Reddit, in fact – but not the cesspools that are FFXIV subs, a more general gaming sub. The person asking me my opinion liked Endwalker and was genuinely curious about why I hated its handling of Ancients when they had never heard of any negative opinion about EW. I replied, naturally, with a massive wall of text, and they thanked me for it and it was all very civil.

I wish more interactions were like this.

But no, instead, this fanbase tends to be as toxic as it gets when you offer criticism. Which is just weird to me, frankly, because it isn't something I had experienced in my recent fandoms of WoW, Pokémon and ASOIAF. Dissent was common and a normal part of discussion. Like, yeah, Game Freak is lazy, Blizzard is Blizzard, and AFFC was slow and the series peaked with ASOS.

I have no idea why FFXIV, in contrast, feels such like a cult.

To say that Endwalker is the sole culprit for my rebound depression last year would be a lie. Because I would ascribe a large part of the blame on how the fanbase has treated me and people like me. We're pushed out of discussion so much that people like the Reddit person I mentioned have never heard negative opinions. I now mostly keep my FFXIV opinions pointedly outside of FFXIV subs, because I'm less likely to get attacked for daring to say something negative about the story. Still get downvoted, of course, but that's par for the course.

Oh, and it is disingenuous (as always with this community) to say we "can't take criticism" because a particular thread has been brought up by a big name content creator and some people might be feeling iffy about that. These people have a massive audience and platform, and FFXIV players are notorious for being rather unhinged outside of the game (which, thankfully, has a draconian enough TOS that it stifles them as they deserve). Now, Mr Happy in particular did not name names, and that's cool of him. But honestly, I am not putting it past some members of his audience to act like psychopaths over a game they've built their identity around, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I have actually seen one person like this in the past few weeks! On Reddit, in fact – but not the cesspools that are FFXIV subs, a more general gaming sub. The person asking me my opinion liked Endwalker and was genuinely curious about why I hated its handling of Ancients when they had never heard of any negative opinion about EW. I replied, naturally, with a massive wall of text, and they thanked me for it and it was all very civil.

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This is the type of person I want to see more often. If encountering someone like this felt less like an exception to the rule, I'd be much more willing to engage with the endwalker enjoyers.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Ah, no, sorry, two different things. Here's the bit from Zepla's stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHI1YL7850g
The video kind of questioning her is someone else entirely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad6O0vSKWps

Not that the guy is entirely right in his assessment either, IMO. But the comments are… interesting…

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I stopped watching when he described the dialogue in the sundering scene as "god-tier" and the way they reinterpreted the lyrics of Answer "genius"...

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I stopped watching when he described the dialogue in the sundering scene as "god-tier" and the way they reinterpreted the lyrics of Answer "genius"...

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So, you stopped watching when someone offered an opinion you disagree with? And people wonder why this place gets called an echo chamber of negativity...

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Originally Posted by Striker44

So, you stopped watching when someone offered an opinion you disagree with? And people wonder why this place gets called an echo chamber of negativity...

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I mean you can pick a choose. A few places like outside can be positive and negative. all depends on how you look at it

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I stopped watching when he described the dialogue in the sundering scene as "god-tier" and the way they reinterpreted the lyrics of Answer "genius"...

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ill say keep going he does make interesting points

We share the Madge King excite over the world wide fame bestow on him by grace of the Happy streamer. Guild work hard at the course correction and did not expect to be the providing unintentional comedy for the millions of the fans it is the double winning. We can now having the inspiration to continue the fight to bring the burger meme to the new generator of fan.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

And people wonder why this place gets called an echo chamber of negativity...

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The forums gets called an echo chamber of negativity by your imaginary majority. (and people who either don't actually use the forums or are so steeped in toxic positivity that any negativity being allowed to exist = echo chamber of negativity)

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I stopped watching when he described the dialogue in the sundering scene as "god-tier" and the way they reinterpreted the lyrics of Answer "genius"...

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I mean it was god-tier bad and some of the worst narrative gaslighting I've ever seen, so I suppose it's genius in the way it really managed to ruin the whole story in a span of about 15 minutes.

It's curious how some of Endwalker's most ardent defenders feel so threatened at times that they've resorted to saying emotionally manipulative things like this:

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Heck, when Soken revealed he was recovering from cancer back in ShB, a group of 40 musicians put together a tribute for him. When "Close in the Distance" came out for EW, a group of 1000 people submitted voice recordings to create a fan-made version of it. Again - when you have by far the largest number of people playing, you will also likely have the largest # of people doing anything (including complaining or creating "backlash"). In terms of the size of the playerbase? The "backlash" is minuscule. Frankly, I can easily see the next "10-year plan" going off quite well given the current trajectory of the game.

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For future reference I would advise permanently putting such individuals on one's ignore list. When the differences between both camps are this irreconcilable there really is no point in entertaining any sort of back and forth. In other words, agree to disagree and end it there.

All they have are passive aggressive attempts to paint those of us who dared to question the story as bad guys or incessant harping on semantics to the point where no meaningful discussion can possibly be had because of their obtuse demands that every other statement be preceded by "in my opinion" or something along those lines.

Do not submit to these people under any circumstances and never change the way you speak to suit their whims.