SAM out classing all other DPS

There are more metas again, for either w-prog and speed kills. Mnk must have been chosen for mantra, a healing intensive fight. One with a intense dps check fight, they might have used a Sam instead.. (seemed almost as if 4.0 would have more or less "a single meta" for both w-prog and speed kills,.. glad it's not the case).

Maybe now a 3 caster meta, a "parallel" meta, might actually exist too?? (Smn buffing all casters a bit with Garuda + smn adding some utility, if Rdm goes down in the fight or is tied to mechanics).

Atleast when looking at Blm at 4.05, first real 4.05 impressions, maybe a 3 caster parallel meta might be possible, depending on the fight.

While now physical dps (and tanks??) seem more "exchangable" for possible metas too.. is there now possibly more "metas" for both w-prog and fast kills in 4.05?

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Cause of what was it again? Oh right, Mantra.... given the gear at the time the help from it was bound to be needed. So I'd honestly expect that requirement to dwindle as people gear up. Once people are better geared, Mantra will become once more again, niche.

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Ignoring evidence against your argument doesn't make your argument better, it makes it worthless. Losing less than 5% dps compared to the second job is not the end of the world. People need to realize this and stop whining about something that in the end, is entirely worthless to all but the top percentile. Which, if we go by the logic that you have, makes mantra not niche, but hilariously underused, and Samurai still got replaced regardless.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Cause of what was it again? Oh right, Mantra.... given the gear at the time the help from it was bound to be needed. So I'd honestly expect that requirement to dwindle as people gear up. Once people are better geared, Mantra will become once more again, niche.

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This literally doesn't matter at all. The fact of the matter is this supposedly overpowered class has been ~dropped~ for another one. If it was as overpowered as people make it out to be to have high damage that never would have happened. Farming as fast as possible is cool but progression is the only thing that matters. If you can clear it once you can clear it again and if you only have to do it once a week 1 extra minute means jack shit. Yoshi may not be balancing for defensive utility but it's still just as important as offensive utility.

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Originally Posted by Meng_Qing

If utility doesn't retain, increase, or recover DPS... what is utility?

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That's not utility; that's just part of the core job - to increase DPS. Those tools aren't 'utility', they are part of the main function of the job (damage) and are actually more like dependencies (or synergy) than utility.

Utility are tools that help outside your main role. Mantra and RDM heals/res are examples of this.

those are utility: mantra, rez.;
but they are more for world-prog or 1st clears metas

for speed farming /fastest clears metas; you mostly need "dps" buff/debuff utilities...

mnk might be better for the mantra henve 1st clears, ..but for speed clears (which will probably make up more of the parties), Sam will shine over Mnk

So whats the point of this thread really. You will have mix of people that speed clear and people that do first run (progression), population of player and class representation will reflect that

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

those are utility: mantra, rez.;
but they are more for world-prog or 1st clears metas

for speed farming /fastest clears metas; you mostly need "dps" buff/debuff utilities...

mnk might be better for the mantra henve 1st clears, ..but for speed clears (which will probably make up more of the parties), Sam will shine over Mnk

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Assuming that will be the case...would that be a problem? Keep in mind that the difference in rDPS in a party with a SAM has been estimated to be around 100 dps points higher than a party using a MNK instead. And this 100 dps difference might be further limited with party buffs alignment. Again...is this a problem? Again...do we want sam to be a worse choice for raid progression AND speedrunning?

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Originally Posted by MelvinK

So whats the point of this thread really. You will have mix of people that speed clear and people that do first run (progression), population of player and class representation will reflect that

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this thread is basiclly a whining without know the whole picture.
Example: I can´t do that dps number with my job or this job does too much dps I can´t tank it.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

for speed farming /fastest clears metas; you mostly need "dps" buff/debuff utilities.
mnk might be better for the mantra henve 1st clears.but for speed clears (which will probably make up more of the parties), Sam will shine over Mnk

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By the time people doing for speedrun farm/fast clear, they will already overgear level. So a samurai in party or not, is not matter. So Sam wouldn´t shine over dps.
If a party finder is strict to samurai only. Usually those group suck and blame another players. So don´t join!
So you can always make you farm group with FC or PF.

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Originally Posted by Sawamura

..

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for "1st time ever" clears, you'd want mnk, mantra helping healers, when many are of the group are under-geared and healing is to tight to survive some moments, in such metas; Sam might not fit in, ..unless war and nin are missing??

"fast" clears (like under 8 min kills), for "fast (and multiple)" farming and for "speed kills on fflogs", you'd want Sam; ..doesn't matter if your over-geared or not, you want the highest dps comp for that fight; in such comps/metas, Sam still fits in well

there are scenarios, where Sam fits into metas,.. just with 4.05, there might not be one meta for all,.. nor maybe for 1st clears.. or for fast clears,.. even 1st clears might now have more meta possibilities, same for fast clears (blm might actually be part of some, and with that maybe smn too), with 4.05 it's more open, even if nin might still seem very favoured,
on the otherhand nin/Sam fits together well too (or is it a lose to have them together??)

Yeah. Once ppl saw world 1st clear had a monk and not a single sam the whole thread got pointless very quickly.

This thread was pointless from the get go, but everyone wants to be the very best (dps) that no one ever was.

That being said, just because world first switched to MNK for the final tier doesn't all of a sudden make SAM useless. SAM is less defensive yes but Y'all need to stop looking at what the 1% are doing so much, it's unhealthy. SAM still provides like 100 more rDPS on average than MNK but just because it wasn't on the first kill doesn't make it any less powerful, especially in the hands of an unskilled player (which is the design philosophy of the devs this expansion, and as someone who got samurai as my last melee at 70, it is definitely true)

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

This thread was pointless from the get go, but everyone wants to be the very best (dps) that no one ever was.

That being said, just because world first switched to MNK for the final tier doesn't all of a sudden make SAM useless. SAM is less defensive yes but Y'all need to stop looking at what the 1% are doing so much, it's unhealthy. SAM still provides like 100 more rDPS on average than MNK but just because it wasn't on the first kill doesn't make it any less powerful, especially in the hands of an unskilled player (which is the design philosophy of the devs this expansion, and as someone who got samurai as my last melee at 70, it is definitely true)

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The thing is, what happens at the top bleeds down into the bottom.

The fact that a multitude of the "Obsolete" jobs were not only included but used in day 1 clears is a giant middlefinger to everyone who's all "I like this job but the number just isn't there"

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Originally Posted by Darian

Yeah. Once ppl saw world 1st clear had a monk and not a single sam the whole thread got pointless very quickly.

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Ultimately, in its current incarnation, MNK is a pretty niche pick. In order for the job to reach its full potential, all or most of the following need to be met:

-Physical-heavy party composition due to limitations of Brotherhood.
-Consistently heavy-hitting raid-wide damage for Mantra to be of any use.
-Fight needs to have no or little extended downtime (No extended transitions or MNK deaths in frequency more common than three minutes [PB cooldown], or boss vanishing for longer than 11-16 seconds without unavoidable damage [for RoE to maintain GL3] more frequently than once per minute [RoE cooldown].)
-Target needs to have flanks available for the majority of the fight (Examples of fights that do not are ones where the boss is unusually spin-happy or spams AoEs that require maintaining a single - or even entirely frontal - position relative to them. True North is a nice bandaid, but has a punishingly long cooldown for a class that loses a large chunk of its damage each time its rotation is forced away from the appropriate positional).

Have to admit that the fight mechanics of OSV4 relative to MNK's kit make it the exception that justifies the rule, rather than one that contradicts it. In contrast, jobs such as SAM, NIN, RDM, or BRD will hardly ever come across content that is more punishing to them than any potential alternative pick. This isn't to say that picking MNK out of personal preference, rather than looking to match fight criteria, is entirely out the window - but in those situations if one needs a strong melee damage dealer SAM will definitely be a more versatile option.

This isn't to say that I'm on the "nerf SAM!" bandwagon. Personally, if I've got gripes about MNK it's due to its large number of near-useless and/or contradictory abilities (Tornado Kick, Fists of Air, Tackle Mastery, One Ilm Punch, etc.), how downright clunky RoF makes the rotation, and how the damage is heavily dependent on both RNG and party composition (sure, Brotherhood in an 8-man with two tanks and two to three other physical DPS is golden, but try to bring it into a 4-man dungeon run with your other DPS being a RDM/SMN/BLM). Of course, these are all issues completely separate from the existence of SAM, and a few other jobs have glaringly more pertinent issues (ie. DRG, SMN, MCH).

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Originally Posted by Svabodnik

-Target needs to have flanks available for the majority of the fight (Examples of fights that do not are ones where the boss is unusually spin-happy or spams AoEs that require maintaining a single - or even entirely frontal - position relative to them.

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You can hit almost all your positionals in every fight it's down to player skill. Also since you don't understand that bosses with full frontal hit boxes always let you hit positionals means you should stop talking about balance when you have no idea how game mechanics work.

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Originally Posted by Atmora

You can hit almost all your positionals in every fight it's down to player skill. Also since you don't understand that bosses with full frontal hit boxes always let you hit positionals means you should stop talking about balance when you have no idea how game mechanics work.

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I think you're completely misunderstanding me here. I'm talking about fights where regions of the field adjacent to the target become inaccessible due to AoEs or other Zones of Imminent Doom, tank positioning, incoming knockbacks that will knock you off the platform if you aren't in a certain position relative to the boss, or the target having reflect shields on certain faces. By "entirely frontal", I mean portions of a fight where a boss has positionals but you are forced to stand in front of the boss for a period of the fight (think V2 where Catastrophe casts 100GS, and the safe zone extends only to the front of the boss). This is the very reason why I mentioned OSV4 being good for monk, because after the transformation phase the boss doesn't have positional limitations (one face). Please, reading comprehension first, insults later.

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Originally Posted by Atmora

You can hit almost all your positionals in every fight it's down to player skill. Also since you don't understand that bosses with full frontal hit boxes always let you hit positionals means you should stop talking about balance when you have no idea how game mechanics work.

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Svabodnik called you out well. Just to add to it, the issue could also be a boss with unpredictable spins causing unforced positional-miss errors. Another good example of inaccessibility for positionals is Susano Extreme when he creates the narrow AOE fields that deny access to his flanks. This happens far more often than Truth North comes off of cooldown.

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Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Snip

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I can hit literally every positional in that unless I fuck up my rotation, that's a terrible example. As for V2 you miss like what, 2 positional when he does that? Unless like you're just standing in front of the boss until the mechanic executes but that just means you're bad. Instead of calling me out all you've done is show me you think you can't stand in an orange puddle then move out of it before the aoe hits. As for sudden spinning, you can memorize every scripted spin in this game and if it's unscripted that's a tank problem and tanks playing badly shouldn't be evaluated for how good a job is in raid.

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Originally Posted by Atmora

(...)

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I gotta say, that's some quantum-computing level ping you've got over in your neck of the woods, then. As for the rotation thing, I'll be sure to inform my tanks that they need to do a better job getting the boss to target the proper party member when they choose to face and target a "random" non-tank for a mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Svabodnik

I gotta say, that's some quantum-computing level ping you've got over in your neck of the woods, then. As for the rotation thing, I'll be sure to inform my tanks that they need to do a better job getting the boss to target the proper party member when they choose to face and target a "random" non-tank for a mechanic.

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The group is usually always stacked if you're running with decent players, so he always turns the same way?

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Originally Posted by Atmora

The group is usually always stacked if you're running with decent players, so he always turns the same way?

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Minus the people moving to hit positionals, I suppose, unless you've got everybody set on the same back corner, which then still brings up the problem of needing to move halfway through the boss in order to regain access to the rear, which depending on the state of your GCD makes it no different than just reacting to the boss turning to begin with. Anyways, my initial post wasn't meant to be so caught up on the positionals issue, or any specific fight for that matter, but was a more general overarching take on the impact fight mechanics can make on the viability of MNK vs. SAM.

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Originally Posted by Svabodnik

Minus the people moving to hit positionals, I suppose, unless you've got everybody set on the same back corner, which then still brings up the problem of needing to move halfway through the boss in order to regain access to the rear, which depending on the state of your GCD makes it no different than just reacting to the boss turning to begin with. Anyways, my initial post wasn't meant to be so caught up on the positionals issue, or any specific fight for that matter, but was a more general overarching take on the impact fight mechanics can make on the viability of MNK vs. SAM.

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A good monk can hit 90% of their positionals at least in any fight was my point.

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Originally Posted by Atmora

A good monk can hit 90% of their positionals at least in any fight was my point.

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And I'd wholeheartedly agree with that, and for most fights I'd wager the number is even higher than that. The reason for why I brought it up is that a MNK that is applied to practically every single weaponskill missed, for up to 30% of that WS's potency a pop, whereas SAMs in a similar situation may luck out and not need to use Gekko or Kasha for 2-5 GCDs. I don't mean to come off like I'm splitting hairs here, but depending on the fight mechanics, especially when compounded with the other three points I've mentioned (party composition, presence or lack of heavy raidwide damage, fight downtime) I'd say it helps SAM be quite a bit more versatile in its role. Not that I'm holding it against SAM, mind you.

Lol. How are you not hitting positional on O2 savage? Just beat it on SAM with no problems getting into position when needed. It sounds like your waiting way too long to move. Also don't forget Sam DOES have positional too and kenki lost is a lot of dps lost for SAM. SAM is dealing with the same stuff every other melee is. No one is special here.

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Originally Posted by Darian

(...)

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What? Did you actually read what I wrote? a) OV2, specifically 100GS, was an example of a mechanic that forces people to move to a face of a boss, and not an example of a fight where executing positionals is difficult. b) SAM does have positionals on Gekko and Kasha, which compose approx. one in four of their GCDs (outside of Midare Setsugekka). Not sure why everyone is so caught up on the positionals issue, but I'll take that as credit that my other three points are sound.

ALL melee lose dps on 100GS. Again monk is not special and just like the other dps. If your unable to hit most of your positional on that super scripted fight then it sounds like you don't know the fight and need to study it more. World 1st was able to clear the hardest fight O4s with a monk and not a SAM. So I'm having a hard time understanding what's wrong with MNK. Or how you can say MNK needs buffs and SAM needs nerfs.

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Originally Posted by Darian

If your unable to hit most of your positional on that super scripted fight then it sounds like you don't know the fight and need to study it more.

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Read:

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Originally Posted by Svabodnik

(...)and not an example of a fight where executing positionals is difficult(...)

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*****

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Originally Posted by Darian

Or how you can say MNK needs buffs and SAM needs nerfs.

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Read:

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Originally Posted by Svabodnik

(...)This isn't to say that I'm on the "nerf SAM!" bandwagon. Personally, if I've got gripes about MNK it's due to its large number of near-useless and/or contradictory abilities (...), how downright clunky RoF makes the rotation, and how the damage is heavily dependent on both RNG and party composition (...). Of course, these are all issues completely separate from the existence of SAM(...)

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Originally Posted by Svabodnik

(...)Not that I'm holding it against SAM, mind you.

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If there is an issue with misunderstanding it, let me spell it out more clearly: I am not saying "nerf SAM" or "buff MNK".

A fight where a Monk can hit every positional and not lose GL isn't a fight, it's a transendence into Rhalgar himself, and using whatever "boss" before you as a puching bag for your demo of the true Fist of the Destroyer.

Seriously tho, all this fuss over about 100 DPS? Being hardcore sounds tough. To me that's just a few more seconds of enjoying the Boss's theme. Because that's essentially what it comes down to.

Btw, that 100, is that an average parse over Susanoo and Lakshmi? If, it'll be interesting to see how the Monk stacks up in Omega, considering your less ****ed than usual. Gg to BLM tho.

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Originally Posted by Darian

Yeah. Once ppl saw world 1st clear had a monk and not a single sam the whole thread got pointless very quickly.

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But like said, when do you need mnk over Sam? mostly when under- geared for 1st clears,.., not for speed farming / kills / fflogs..., where most of the time will be spent after that 1st clear

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

But like said, when do you need mnk over Sam? mostly when under- geared for 1st clears,.., not for speed farming / kills / fflogs..., where most of the time will be spent after that 1st clear

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Yea, but 100 dps difference between mnk/Sam will not be enough to sway a group from picking up a mnk if they are truly looking to Farm.

You come off as believing mnk and other jobs should be equal to Sam in farming/fflogs recording parties. Mnk and other jobs will get the kills just fine (mostly). We now do know for a FACT that Sam is not the end-all-be-all for everything.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

But like said, when do you need mnk over Sam? mostly when under- geared for 1st clears,.., not for speed farming / kills / fflogs..., where most of the time will be spent after that 1st clear

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Except for MCH, all DPS are good picks for farming runs, because people are typically overgeared already. Your argument has no legs to stand on.

for normal farming, any dps will do ofc,.. especially after 4.95 (even though still see only one caster and one ranged often allowed)

but we're talking about either (world) first kill tries or (world) fastest speed kills..., or pfs, that want to speed farm

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

for normal farming, any dps will do ofc,.. especially after 4.95 (even though still see only one caster and one ranged often allowed)

but we're talking about either (world) first kill tries or (world) fastest speed kills..., or pfs, that want to speed farm

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And SAM wasn't present for world first kills for most statics, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that your worries are unfounded. Melee are mostly well balanced, except DRG. Which... was present in most world firsts regardless. Working as intended?

Ranged needs work, RDM is still way too strong and MCH is worthless, but melee aren't that out of whack.

Yeah, Melee are fine. When it comes to balance at least. I'd say DRG players are the most unhappy with feel (honestly who signed up to be a support when they played DRG and then the class is also pretty punishing with a unsatisfying feel to it) followed by MNK, but really that sort of stuff is subjective. The melee DPS are the most balanced group right now if we are going by DPS classes.

Also DRG is just a battery for BRDs who is the real job people like. Without DRG,BRD is a worse pick than RDM and MNK at least offensively and without BRD, DRG is also worse than them. Having those classes together put them above RDM and MNK, but DRG doesn't have any sort of defensive utility so that has to be factored in as well. That being said DRG has always been a popular class, it was the most played melee by quite a margin before SAM (it was the OG cool kid/edgy anime protagonist class) so it is unsurprising to see people playing it a lot again after its buffs made it not completely worthless.

don't know how drg 4.05 fairs, but if it's like blm 4.05 (seems good at first and has its merit, but still not fixed looking at raid comps and rdm), than there is still balancing needed..

maybe a slight rdm nerf? or another slight blm & smn buff? (Smn should be on par with rdm, even if it's aoe might seem better)? besides another drg buff? (lower piercing buff but increase own dps??)

melee aside of drg (which had love in HW, most used melee), have somehow received more love than the casters/ranged of general ..., exception rdm (and Brd seems ok, .. brd got more love than mch, after mch got so much on the last third of HW?)

it's like the constant cycle of getting love, when they last didn't get any and vice versa... (few exceptions and not consistant intervals)

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

maybe a slight rdm nerf? or another slight blm & smn buff? (Smn should be on par with rdm, even if it's aoe might seem better)?

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I think the RDM and BLM discrepancy could be fixed via adjusting potencies alone. BLM still needs some rework on that since variations on the 3.x rotation are nearly identical to 4.05 rotations which is silly. I think with the reasoning they used to justify SAM's DPS, that same logic should put BLM's DPS ahead of SAM's since it is punished by mechanics more than SAM is. Still, I think RDM just is too good of a pick over BLM (and SMN) with the damage levels it brings and utility.

SMN's going to take more than just potency adjustments. The issues are deeper rooted.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

I think the RDM and BLM discrepancy could be fixed via adjusting potencies alone. BLM still needs some rework on that since variations on the 3.x rotation are nearly identical to 4.05 rotations which is silly. I think with the reasoning they used to justify SAM's DPS, that same logic should put BLM's DPS ahead of SAM's since it is punished by mechanics more than SAM is. Still, I think RDM just is too good of a pick over BLM (and SMN) with the damage levels it brings and utility.

SMN's going to take more than just potency adjustments. The issues are deeper rooted.

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I think instant veraise also needs to become less strong and/or less spammable. As it stands it is hugely useful, especially in learning new fights.

I played both monk and samurai.... Tornado kick 330 potency for mnk is completely worthless in comparison of sam's midare sedsukka 720 potency. Both which require a build up combos. Samurai's have also superior AoE capabilities with 5 or more skills, spamming that Kyoten at 100 kenkki with zero tradeoff in damage towards how many monsters your hitting. Not to mention Mnk's Steel peak that only does a 150 potency with a 40 second timer with no additional effects... used to be stun.

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Originally Posted by Windwalker

I played both monk and samurai.... Tornado kick 330 potency for mnk is completely worthless in comparison of sam's midare sedsukka 720 potency.

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These two attacks do not serve the same purpose. One of which has to be used every 3 combo rotations to even be competitive with the other melee jobs while TK is not designed that way.

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Samurai's have also superior AoE capabilities with 5 or more skills, spamming that Kyoten at 100 kenkki with zero tradeoff in damage towards how many monsters your hitting. Not to mention Mnk's Steel peak that only does a 150 potency with a 40 second timer with no additional effects... used to be stun.

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Every other AoE attack has fall off though except the one hissatsu and we'll put the word "Spammed" in quotations. 25 kenki cost per use makes it costly and you still need to make sure you have kaiten available for the 2 sen AoE attack and Guren which costs 50 kenki. No other Melee job even has AoE fall off though their AoE might not be quite as good as Sam's. I do know Nin Has pretty strong AoE ability and Mnks isn't bad, drgs I think are the worst off out of the melees.

The melee jobs are fairly balanced at this point, though Mnks can use some tweaks to skills to make them more useful, not necessarily more powerfull.

so little mention of ninjas. 1st spot melee meta right now.

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Originally Posted by armandojc3

so little mention of ninjas. 1st spot melee meta right now.

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That's because nin isn't top dps and people only care about personal dps. But we already knew this, right?