How to Dragoon Per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by Outfoxed

so..... unless i'm late.... does anyone have any mathematical proof that grabbing enough SS (instead of a 40% stronger crit) is worth the 1potency per second off of HT? if it takes 600 skillspeed to hit 2.4 or 2.39 gcd then the question is.... what's better.... a 1potency per second increase in damage or a 40% increase in secondary stat from pure crit.

seeing as how stat weighs were only releasd within the last couple of days, we finally have the capability to prove or disprove the 2.4gcd assumption

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I'll calculate it after my Raid, but I'll use a 1:1 Ratio of CRIT/SS as they share the same Item Budget (of 24)

EDIT: Has anyone else noticed they've decreased the Animation "lock" of potions? It feels so much more fluid now.

I cleared the first floor and got a bolt drop before I looked into any optimal loot path, and I don't have the Ravana weapon, so what would be the best path to take at this point? What kind of accuracy requirements are there for Alexander? Right now I'm at 601 accuracy, but if I get the ring I'll lose 20 acc which seems like a lot. Is 581 still enough for Floors 3 and 4?

i haven't missed T3 at 517 acc

probably likely that ravana has a higher acc requirement than alexander

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

i haven't missed T3 at 517 acc

probably likely that ravana has a higher acc requirement than alexander

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Also, having to attack from the front.

I didn't get a chance to work on the sim today since I was busy, but by tomorrow maybe you'll have definite "mathematical proof".

Though one of you guys needs to actually write up the correct rotation. The script is not going to write itself, and I do not play this class.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Also, having to attack from the front.

I didn't get a chance to work on the sim today since I was busy, but by tomorrow maybe you'll have definite "mathematical proof".

Though one of you guys needs to actually write up the correct rotation. The script is not going to write itself, and I do not play this class.

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0 Sarcasm in what I'm about to ask.

Is there an issue with the rotation on page 1? I try to keep up with the thread, but may have missed something.

I know this is a drg forum, but does this stat weight also apply to mnk or just purely drg stat weight?

"However, you might now ask yourselves, why don't I go for HP - IDC4 over H - IDC4 - P? This is a very good and valid question. Before with our 2.0 Rotation, using HP-IDC was equivalent to trading 1 tick of Phlebotomize for 1 tick of Chaos Thrust + 1 GCD 10% buffed via Disembowel. " (from the OP)

Correct me if I'm wrong but in 2.0 there are 7.5(3 GCDs) seconds between phlebotomize and chaos thrust using the HPIDC combo. how did you only calculate 1 tick of phlebotomize (3 seconds)?

By moving Phlebotomize up 3 GCDs you are getting an extra 7.5 seconds of phleb out not 3. Phleb was being casted 2.5 seconds in as opposed to 10 seconds in when using HPIDC. That's 2.5 DoT ticks or 75 potency.

I know I'm late on this but it was always an inconsistency I found that was never adequately explained.

Given the current stat weights, assuming your gear has enough ss to hit 2.4, it sounds like food that optimizes crit is going to be the best currently?

Pretty early to start asking, but what is a reasonable DPS to achieve in the new Alexander raid for the last boss? Best I've achieved is 955 DPS sustained w/i180 weapon, ilvl175 with an average of around 840ish. Time I got 955 I was only sucked in once and had double Dragoon for 2x Battle Litany duration.

I've only started parsing stuff this week and just want to know what to strive for is all.

the more dps you do in t4 the more likely you're gonna get sent to the add room in the tunnel ;_;

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

the more dps you do in t4 the more likely you're gonna get sent to the add room in the tunnel ;_;

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Certainly feels that way. Had my DPS up to like 1k and it threw me in there just in time to throw my just-applied BotD off ;_;

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

the more dps you do in t4 the more likely you're gonna get sent to the add room in the tunnel ;_;

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Ye, I always get sended in the tunnel with DrK..

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Originally Posted by PaiiNx

Ye, I always get sended in the tunnel with DrK..

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It's always off-tank + 1 DPS

Okay. Given these stats:

Skillspeed: 638
Critical Hit Rating: 636
Determination: 377
DPS: 1226.983248

Skillspeed: 0
Critical Hit Rating: 827
Determination: 377
DPS: 1227.02418731662

At 2.5 GCD, or 0 Skillspeed, you need 189 more CRT to break even. Or you could say that you need roughly 1.5* more Skillspeed to meet the equivalence of CRT on damage, at our baseline of full i190 stats.

DET:CRT Item Budget is 1.04:1 if I remember correctly, so if we take those item budgets into consideration, we need approximately:

Skillspeed: 0
Critical Hit Rating: 720
Determination: 481
DPS: 1227.39713776695


Or, +100 CRT and + 104 Determination to break even.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Or, +100 CRT and + 104 Determination to break even.

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With the added benefit of better TP efficiency I'm assuming.

Nice guide... thanks

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Originally Posted by Outfoxed

i'm not even sure how important skillspeed threshholds are. hitting the 2.4 threshhold is approx 1% increase in damage from HT/Phlebotomize at least from my own numbers.

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1% is huge compared to what people usually argue about in this forum.

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

With the added benefit of better TP efficiency I'm assuming.

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going by the current design of the fights, most of the turns seem to have enough breaks that TP should not be an issue with proper invigorate usage, other than turn 2; so im not worried about TP efficiency tbh. even with 2.39 skill speed, i last around 4m20s or so

Is anyone else super happy with the fact that most Alexander fights are just... striking dummies? They're waaaaay easier than the initial 3.0 content from a DRG perspective. It's fun to actually execute the ideal rotation for a change.

Nobody is surprised considering they said Alexander (Normal) would be very easy, and roughly equates to First or Second Coil with 30% echo.

They said Savage would be as hard as Final Coil, without echo, though I'm sure it will easy up when they introduce comparable gear, just as FCoB was made easier with Poetics gear.

Fair enough. I'm just saying, Alex NM is smoother and more fun from a DRG perspective even when compared to HM primals and dungeons. The former has very few anti-BotD mechanics.

I definitely agree on this. It'll be fun to see what they do with Savage, but most of this stuff gives pretty darn good uptime.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

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Well I'm not sure it's possible to have 0 skillspeed. Wearing nothing but a lance I have 428-74 (from the lance) so thats 354 skillspeed as a base?

so the skillspeed comparison would be between 638 and 354 right?

so i'm not quite sure what you're saying, but from your post it sounds like SS is just not very good?

Is there an enemy amount breakpoint for when it's worth dropping BotD in favor of an extra Geir?

Like let's say, in our wildest dreams, there are 20 enemies that just spawned and you have the option of doing a Geir on them but you will lose BotD for 45s (hypothetical numbers!). If you would save Geir these enemies would die before your next natural Geir and you just lost 4000 potency.

While that's a mighty extremist scenario, is there a realistic number where it's okay to drop BotD in favor of said potency?

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Originally Posted by Outfoxed

so i'm not quite sure what you're saying, but from your post it sounds like SS is just not very good?

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In other words, there's absolutely no way we'll be able to drop all of our skillspeed in favour for critical and DET unless you can find away to make it all back.

The only exception is when you go for Ravana EX. You can then drop the i190 legs for the i180. (Idk ACC values for Alex Normal).

So if you drop 100 skillspeed, you need roughly 50 Crit to make the damage difference back, 55 DET, or roughly an even split of CRIT/DET.

And of course it's from 354 SS, lol. We can't go below that value. 354 basically is 0 as that's our base.

With our new stat weights, it doesn't seem like we need to even calculate the stats until there are gear of the same ilvl... Strength is worth a lot more than the secondary stats relative to how it was in ARR.

Take the Law 180 legs compared to Alex 190 legs for example. Law legs have 66 Det and 48 SS, while Alex legs have 54 Accuracy and 77 SS. In ARR you would look at what accuracy you need, and then maybe go with the Law legs instead of the Alex ones, because you can get the accuracy from somewhere else, and don't have to get that 77 SS that you don't want.

That is totally different now... Even though the Alex legs have accuracy and a ton of SS, they still have higher stat weights than the 180 legs with no accuracy at all...

Actually, the i180 legs weigh 0.1 higher than the i190 legs if you don't need the Accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

Is anyone else super happy with the fact that most Alexander fights are just... striking dummies? They're waaaaay easier than the initial 3.0 content from a DRG perspective. It's fun to actually execute the ideal rotation for a change.

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Yeah, it's nice to get a few rotations in on A4. Now if only he'd stop sucking me into the tube right after using Geirskogul :P

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Actually, the i180 legs weigh 0.1 higher than the i190 legs if you don't need the Accuracy.

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So would you prioritize legs last then for tokens? That is my current plan, but might be dicey depending on ACC requirements in Alexander Savage (though there are always alternative pieces for ACC we could wear I suppose)

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

Is anyone else super happy with the fact that most Alexander fights are just... striking dummies? They're waaaaay easier than the initial 3.0 content from a DRG perspective. It's fun to actually execute the ideal rotation for a change.

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Originally Posted by spelley

Yeah, it's nice to get a few rotations in on A4. Now if only he'd stop sucking me into the tube right after using Geirskogul :P

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I mean, I did say on another thread the problem isn't with our Job, but the fight mechanics themselves :D But yeah, it definitely does feel good to see 1k DPS.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I mean, I did say on another thread the problem isn't with our Job, but the fight mechanics themselves :D But yeah, it definitely does feel good to see 1k DPS.

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I'm personally taking the little bit of potential DPS loss and only using the BotD cooldown after blowing duration w/Geirskogul right before phase transition (using it once we get back on the boss), and otherwise maintaining the "21sec+ is safe" rule for Geirskogul use. That way I can still maintain BotD even when getting sucked into the tube most of the time unless I get very unlucky with the timing, and if that happens I have the CD available to me to keep going. Can't count number of times that I proc my 4th, get sucked into tube and then JUST have enough time to throw the 4th on the mob in the tube to keep BotD going. So far it seems to be working pretty decently.

I think 20 is the absolute minimum to maintain botd after geirskogul. If you queue your combos early, you should still able to get off a WT/F&C after using a 20s GK, giving me exactly 10ish seconds to do so. 21 gives you a whole second to reposition, but 20 is the absolute minimum I believe.

21s also means you have time for Heavy Thrust or Phlebotomize before starting your next combo, which becomes very tight with 20s. I've lost BotD to that enough times to learn my lesson.

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Originally Posted by seekified

21s also means you have time for Heavy Thrust or Phlebotomize before starting your next combo, which becomes very tight with 20s. I've lost BotD to that enough times to learn my lesson.

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I've tried to cheat it before at 20s but my latency just won't allow it. Ideally I'd have 22s so I can handle a stray AoE but usually don't have that luxury

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Originally Posted by spelley

Yeah, it's nice to get a few rotations in on A4. Now if only he'd stop sucking me into the tube right after using Geirskogul :P

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Man, those tubes drive me nuts. I think whether or not you get selected has to do with your aggro ranking, so you can cheese it with Elusive Jump, but only for one of the two legs. I'm trying to figure out a more consistent strategy for screwing over my teammates and padding my numbers...

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

Man, those tubes drive me nuts. I think whether or not you get selected has to do with your aggro ranking, so you can cheese it with Elusive Jump, but only for one of the two legs. I'm trying to figure out a more consistent strategy for screwing over my teammates and padding my numbers...

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A fun trick I've been doing is making sure I keep my BotD positionals (50% of the time anyway) even when facetanking the adds (or the tunnel add because you better believe it gets hit before my fall animation is done) by moving through them and doing Fang and Claw as they are in flank by time they start to turn around. If only I could find a way to consistently get Wheeling Thrust to do the same... Speaking of Elusive Jump, a fun thing to do is if I'm the only melee in the group (has happened twice) and I get tethered, I like to Elusive Jump into the pack of casters/ranged guys because damn if random pugs will actually move up to block them on their own.

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Originally Posted by spelley

A fun trick I've been doing is making sure I keep my BotD positionals (50% of the time anyway) even when facetanking the adds (or the tunnel add because you better believe it gets hit before my fall animation is done) by moving through them and doing Fang and Claw as they are in flank by time they start to turn around. If only I could find a way to consistently get Wheeling Thrust to do the same... Speaking of Elusive Jump, a fun thing to do is if I'm the only melee in the group (has happened twice) and I get tethered, I like to Elusive Jump into the pack of casters/ranged guys because damn if random pugs will actually move up to block them on their own.

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You happen to notice if you are actually still getting the positional bonus when doing that (moving through mobs last second)? I don't think it was really worked in ARR, but i've tried doing it again in this expac and it at least feels like it works now; I just haven't really sat down and tested it.

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

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You can definitely see it work. The damage is obvious enough to see. Basically, if you move through DIRECTLY TO THE BACK of the enemy and use it (don't try while still inside the mob), they will be partially turned when the move executes, giving you the flank positional. Works for Heavy Thrust too (but far less noticeable damage-wise of course). It basically is:

Combo Finisher -> Stutter step to partially clip enemy -> Let your attack animation finish -> Move to the direct back of the enemy -> Hit Fang and Claw/Heavy Thrust as you touch/cross over the targeting ring.

This works fairly consistently with my Canadian Latency (TM). It works especially well if you move through/attack as they are finishing up an attack animation (not just AOEs) as they don't usually start turning until they are done with it, and that fraction of a second delays it so you can get into the right positional for the flank.

Hey guys I don't have your weapon stats, aka weapon damage, autoattack damage, and autoattack delay.

It occurs to me that for stat weighting, skill speed is more of a break-point style of stat. In other words, each point of skill speed increases dps by a small amount, but when it reaches a high enough thresh-hold to produce a more efficient rotation, you get a significantly larger dps increase.

Of course, those thresh-hold values are going to be somewhat dependent on latency, but keep in mind that the stat weight values for skill speed probably don't reflect the increase from a more efficient rotation.

How many enemies would it take for it to be worth drop Phlebotomize from the normal rotation to get more Geirskoguls out? I'm thinking this may be the ideal approach to handling multiple enemies while saving TP, like during Floor 2. And how many enemies would it take for HT > RoT spam to deal more damage than that?