Why I Decided to Become an Elitist

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Originally Posted by juniglee

Thanks for the tips.

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My HP is almost 6k.
Food still consider luxury item for me, trying to lvl my crafting also at the same time.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

So, take my doubt away, you're saying some tanks at i50++ don't have provoke ? seriously ?

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Yep, seen it a few times.

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

My HP is almost 6k.
Food still consider luxury item for me, trying to lvl my crafting also at the same time.

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Nuyu if you need a little help on dps/ rotation look up "end game bard guide by krietoR" it has helpful tips =) and the dps sub forum is also great

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

So, take my doubt away, you're saying some tanks at i50++ don't have provoke ? seriously ?

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One of my friends actually. We all just assumed he did and didn't find out until Mog EX. Whew...

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Originally Posted by FrejyaAthenes

One of my friends actually. We all just assumed he did and didn't find out until Mog EX. Whew...

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One of my guildies and RL friends just flat refused to get it until 50. Then he insisted he needed as part of his pulling macro because he claimed someone put in a video. I told him he needed to save it, it just put him to the top of the enimity list. It was to be used for tank swapping and for when he lost aggro. He promptly retired his tank and has never played it again.

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

One of my guildies and RL friends just flat refused to get it until 50. Then he insisted he needed as part of his pulling macro because he claimed someone put in a video. I told him he needed to save it, it just put him to the top of the enimity list. It was to be used for tank swapping and for when he lost aggro. He promptly retired his tank and has never played it again.

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Wow. My friend just flat-out didn't know. Soon as we told him he got it the next day (Mog was our last run of the night). Another friend, a Scholar, was like that for the longest about getting Stoneskin, though.

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

One of my guildies and RL friends just flat refused to get it until 50. Then he insisted he needed as part of his pulling macro because he claimed someone put in a video. I told him he needed to save it, it just put him to the top of the enimity list. It was to be used for tank swapping and for when he lost aggro. He promptly retired his tank and has never played it again.

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He believed a random web video so much more that he would rather just retire than discuss it with you who is a RL friend? I don't even know what to say about that.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

He believed a random web video so much more that he would rather just retire than discuss it with you who is a RL friend? I don't even know what to say about that.

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It's a long story...TLDR I am pretty sure he did Ultima Reborn?(unsure of name) without me....One of the first tank swapping fights.....and failed badly...over and over could not get aggro because provoke was never up and was eventually dismissed.

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

It's a long story...TLDR I am pretty sure he did Ultima Reborn?(unsure of name) without me....One of the first tank swapping fights.....and failed badly...over and over could not get aggro because provoke was never up and was eventually dismissed.

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It's sad that instead of looking inward and going through some self improvement he would rather just bail on the job entirely. It's not like he was a pro with only that much experience. I just don't understand this mindset at all.

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Originally Posted by kirk

Nuyu if you need a little help on dps/ rotation look up "end game bard guide by krietoR" it has helpful tips =) and the dps sub forum is also great

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Yeah, I've been studying his rotation, my main issue is my TP easy to drain out.
Starting to lvl up my DRG for "Invigorate", that skill is my highest priority compared with "Blood for Blood".
But I will lvl up to 34, because in the end I still need "Blood for Blood".
And also starting to learn use potion and food for additional DPS.

Kinda rushing a bit because Heavensward is near, want to clear all coil before that.

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

Yeah, I've been studying his rotation, my main issue is my TP easy to drain out.
Starting to lvl up my DRG for "Invigorate", that skill is my highest priority compared with "Blood for Blood".
But I will lvl up to 34, because in the end I still need "Blood for Blood".
And also starting to learn use potion and food for additional DPS.

Kinda rushing a bit because Heavensward is near, want to clear all coil before that.

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Godspeed Nuyu. It looks like you are on the right path.

The way I see it, elitism counts in kindess to other players. We all had to start somewhere, right? So If you refer yourself as an elitist, but you have a shitty attitude and talk down to others who are far less deserving of your ire, you're an asshole. There are far more scrubs out there that could use a heavy dose of scrutiny, than someone who is still legitimately learning the content.

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

Yeah, I've been studying his rotation, my main issue is my TP easy to drain out.
Starting to lvl up my DRG for "Invigorate", that skill is my highest priority compared with "Blood for Blood".
But I will lvl up to 34, because in the end I still need "Blood for Blood".
And also starting to learn use potion and food for additional DPS.

Kinda rushing a bit because Heavensward is near, want to clear all coil before that.

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Awesome once you have both those skills it'll help lots =)

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

Be the first doesn't mean you're the best. What we discuss here is about veterans attitude, if I was them I don't mind at all to carry newbies there to show how the mechanic works.

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What you (and many others who are mad at 'elitists') conveniently ignore is, that A LOT of veterans are sick of the attitude they are often presented with when trying to help a newbie. It looks like the vast majority of new people you meet in duty finder do not want to improve at all and think it's okay to get carried because it's their 14 bucks a month and because they pay that, they deserve every clear handed to them... by other people.

It's completely understandable that not everyone wants to deal with this awful attitude. And then those same people go on the Lodestone or Reddit and rage about 'elitists' and how evil they are for not carrying them.

I can safely say that the nicest people I know ingame are what the Lodestone would call 'elitists'.

Here is my thought on the entire thing. COming from someone who at times has complained about the elitist attitude from time to time and have been accused of being elitist myself I have a few things to say on it. Elitism is perfectly fine as long as you dont rub other people's nose into it that your better than them. If you join a DF and expect perfection from every person and talk down to people or rage quit, then YOU are in the wrong. If you create a party finder and say Know your stuff, dont whipe, you will be kicked etc That is YOUR Party finder and YOUR right. There are casuals, there are weekend warriors, there are hardcore players, there are all walks of life on this game. Being someone who has all content on farm to a point where i can watch a movie, talk on the phone, and talk in my LS and FC while farming Final Coil I myself prefer to group with players of the same skill level. that being said. If I join a "learning party" I expect wipes, I expect struggle to a point.

I look at it this way. If your in a learning/progression party helping others, as long as people are getting past the spot they died to previously they are making "progress" if they arent.. then they arent learning, they are making the same mistakes over and over and wasting mine, and other people's time. I will kindly point out the mistake, if i see the person repeatedly making same mistake I will let them know that this is getting a bit old. After enough times of the same mistake from the same person I will suggest replacing this person until they are able to contribute to the over all party. If I was wiping the party repeatedly, I would expect no different.

If I create a party finder for "farming" I expect people to be on that level.. Farming. If you join a farming party in a party finder you should be comfortable with that fight to a point where you can do it in your sleep and one shot over and over. if you have cleared great awesome. But if you join a farming party and wipe the party to mechanics and its not a one shot, then your holding people back at that point. I will disband parties that I make if people cant farm. If you join a party with certain expectations, and cant live up to them then expect some backlash. If you have cleared, but dont feel comfortable that you as a player can do it your sleep then you should join a few clear parties and get more practice before you join a "farm" Just how I feel.

I am not an elitist in the sense I talk down to people, I know im a skilled player and probably can do things easier than others. however I wont belittle people or call them scrubs. However I will expect them to take accountability for their faults, and know the role they are expected to play based on what they are joining. I run learning parties, help players, teach players all the time. however I wont sit in a party for 4 hours that isnt making gains in a fight and if that makes me an elitist.. Then so be it.

My static helped 3 people get T13 clears last night in lieu of farming. I think we're going to be doing more learning/clears at raid time. Farming the same old crap on the same old jobs is getting stale for all of us. Helping people learn or clear that same content though, that kinda breathes new life into it for us. First clears are happy things for everyone. ^^

We are converting people to the elitist cause one clear at a time~

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Originally Posted by Elazu

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Never in my intention to ask them to carry me until it success (t9), that's violate my protocol and my dignity.
I just want to ask them to follow me for first time to build up my confidence and to learn the strategies, not mechanic but strategies.
Because the guide from video are different from the actual strategies in masamune, but yeah some people are too good to have their time for new player.

I'm not mad at them, just disappointed.

Scarlet Haze, I used to be in your FC. I joined because I saw you shouting in Limsa Lominsa saying that your FC, "No One Left Behind," helped out new players. After coming back to the game and starting over on a different server, that sounded like just the FC for me. Never asked the FC for help until I got to the Extreme primals, and I was completing them in Duty Finder until I got up to a particular one where the Duty Finder was insufficient given the quality of the average player in there.

So I asked if the FC helped with primals. And each time I'd ask, I'd get a "yes" but no help. I didn't want a carry. I knew the fight; I just needed a group that could actually do the fight with me. I wasn't wanting to pony farm; I was just needing clears. This was Titan Hard mode at ARR launch all over again where I knew the fight but people just couldn't perform well enough to get a clear. And I kept asking, kept getting told yes, and kept not getting help. This went on for about a month. I eventually asked if I could schedule a time for getting help, and you turned me down after having led me on for a month about primals, even longer given your recruiting shouts.

I basically reasoned if a "helpful" FC leader didn't actually help and I had to go outside the FC into party finder, I couldn't do any worse finding a helpful FC. So I quit. And after I quit, there you were in Lominsa still /shouting your recruitment about how helpful you were and how you help newer players. And it's not like I was the only one who was subject to your apathy. I helped plenty of people in the FC; I just never got that help when I actually needed it.

I understand your FC had a bit of a schism yesterday with you kicking people who didn't agree with your newfound elitism philosophy; not condemning your viewpoint, but kicking for apparently just not agreeing with your view. I still have friends in there so I know. Are you so elitist now that you're embarrassed by the very same people you recruited when shouting to help new players? But it's not my place to air dirty laundry that I wasn't personally involved in so I won't go into details. But I noticed that after this happened, you were still in Lominsa /shouting your recruitment spiel about being oh so helpful for new players.

So when I see a thread like this, about your elitism, it just rings so hollow. Both because your previous stance about helping people was hollow and how petty you reacted to people who didn't share your view. Those people who were not actively condemning your view, but just did not share it. And for what it's worth, my last interaction with you after having left the FC is a memory of seeing you engage in the usual shouting and blame game stuff in WoD that the juvenile players do where players are at each other's throats being hostile instead of productive.

So, if you want to be an elitist, I think you're well on track for all the negative connotations that carries with it. The rest of us can aspire to be better players without carrying that divisive attitude you've adopted.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

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the simple fact is that scarlet haze is a bitter player and not necessarily a bad player. operating on the avatar: she will go wherever the weather takes her if it seems that it might result in an advantage. the truth is that scarlet haze is 'an elitist' now because the only people she can get angry at are people newer than her - she desperately wants to feel like she is an important and valuable player, but she lacks the grit.

what you describe about the FC recruitment scenario speaks volumes about haze's character: she would REALLY like to be a part of an FC, or run an FC, where everyone helps her! "why are all these bads joining my FC!!!!!????" "super pros were supposed to join my FC and i was supposed to magically fall into a HxC top raiding static!" scarlet haze is an elitist when she wants to cheaply complain a little about titan ex, and scarlet haze is a poetics rights activist when anyone comes with receipts. if only she could get 7 other amazing players of her level to farm through fcob with her 500 times! it's not her fault, really!

at the end of the day, the social aspect is as important as any other in this game. you cannot be whiny, you cannot be negative, you cannot have a terrible reputation and you certainly cannot be a solitary (lmao titan-ex) 'elitist'. what you actually accomplish is that you utterly alienate yourself: are any top raiding fc's totally interested in you now that you've demonstrated how much you can complete rudimentary i90 content scarlet? would any new player accept you in their party? nobody likes a sore loser, and while everybody is selfish, favours and kindness are as much a part of the game as anything else. you would stand gaping (and probably start crying about how unfair it is) if you knew how many times i have been helped in fcob and pony farms by people who started in 2.4 or later.

if you want to get ahead, play nicely. if you do not socialise, you are just an npc.

This is a lot more gray than everyone realizes, it is very polarizing as well. No one likes to feel taken advantage of, it sucks to know there are people who actively take advantage of others, they join groups knowing they will make it extremely hard on the people they join. They don't care ant they are unapologetic. It can make a person very angry, after dealing with enough of that it can leave you very bitter.

There are people who try really hard, give to others whenever they can are receptive to instruction that are worthy and deserving of help. They sometimes get treated very poorly after one mistake even when they informed everyone they were new, sometimes they get harassed for just being new. It can make a person very angry, after dealing with enough of that it can leave you very bitter.

The extremes on both sides ruin it for everyone. I don't like the tone of my earlier posts. I would take much of it back. FWIW I intend to help whoever I can, whenever I can, if someone takes advantage of me along way due to their apathy so be it, I am not going to let them turn me into less of a person. I'm sorry

Magus, I think you hit the nail on the head with the comment on the situation being gray.

The tricky part about veteran-newbie relations is drawing the line between encouraging the less experienced player to rely on being carried and utterly discouraging honest self-starters who just want more opportunities to learn.

For example, I'll sometimes join a T9-13 learn/clear party in PF without the expectation of actually clearing. If we clear, it's a great feeling to help people get their achievement; if we don't, then hopefully they will have made progress, and maybe I learned a new trick by playing a Job I rarely get to play for my static.

If someone wants a literal carry, they can find a PF for that as well, but I'm not interested in donating or even selling my play time to help those who have given up on helping themselves.

I'm a newbie. I have hacked my way to level 37 and stuck at level 8 alchemist for skill. I can't figure out how to get in dungeons or how to get a paladin for second job. I wasted $50 on the "killer guide" that is too broad and not very specific on how to get thru the game. What is the best way to find these things out? I have run into a lot of non-responsive players:(

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Originally Posted by SamBentley

I'm a newbie. I have hacked my way to level 37 and stuck at level 8 alchemist for skill. I can't figure out how to get in dungeons or how to get a paladin for second job. I wasted $50 on the "killer guide" that is too broad and not very specific on how to get thru the game. What is the best way to find these things out? I have run into a lot of non-responsive players:(

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If you hacked your way to lvl 37, you probably skipped all the story quests? If so, you need to do them, that is how the dungeons open up, without completing the story quests, all you will find are FATE and Leves.

Again if you hacked your way to 37, it sounds like you skipped the Gladiator Story quests? If so, do them, if not, then look up the Paladin job quests, you have to do those to enable Paladin and obtain the job skills that go with it.

I suggest you go to this site for information on all of the things you need. The paladin reference includes all the job quests, their location and which NPC to speak to.

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/FF14_Wiki

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Originally Posted by SamBentley

I'm a newbie. I have hacked my way to level 37 and stuck at level 8 alchemist for skill. I can't figure out how to get in dungeons or how to get a paladin for second job. I wasted $50 on the "killer guide" that is too broad and not very specific on how to get thru the game. What is the best way to find these things out? I have run into a lot of non-responsive players:(

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In order to unlock the Duty Finder, you will have to follow the main story quests until you get a quest called "Call to the Sea" (Level 15 Main story quest). This quest will lead you to the first Dungeon called Sastasha. When you "touch" the entrance of that dungeon, you will unlock the dungeon within the Duty Finder and the Duty Finder along with it.

In order to get Paladin Unlocked, you would need to have Gladiator at Level 30 and Conjurer at Level 15 as well as completed the Gladiator Class quests and the Main Story Quest called "Sylph-management" (Level 20 Main Story Quest). In order to unlock Conjurer, you will have to visit the Conjurer's Guild in Old Gridania. But, if you follow the Main Story Quests, you will end up in Gridania as part of the Main Story Quest, so be sure to unlock Conjurer when you're there.

Once you meet the requirements for unlocking Paladin, go to The Steps of Thal in Ul'dah (x9,y11) and talk to Lulutsu to start the Paladin Quest.

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Originally Posted by SamBentley

I'm a newbie. I have hacked my way to level 37 and stuck at level 8 alchemist for skill. I can't figure out how to get in dungeons or how to get a paladin for second job. I wasted $50 on the "killer guide" that is too broad and not very specific on how to get thru the game. What is the best way to find these things out? I have run into a lot of non-responsive players:(

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I am going to hope you are not trolling me. Do not ever buy a guide again. Use forums, use Google. You first time through the game follow the main story, and do your class quests. The early guildhests are good for teaching basic grouping. Google FFIV Paladin and you will find plenty of good information. Main story should take you through you first dungeons.

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Originally Posted by SamBentley

I'm a newbie. I have hacked my way to level 37 and stuck at level 8 alchemist for skill. I can't figure out how to get in dungeons or how to get a paladin for second job. I wasted $50 on the "killer guide" that is too broad and not very specific on how to get thru the game. What is the best way to find these things out? I have run into a lot of non-responsive players:(

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http://oi60.tinypic.com/2v3na4l.jpg

You need to do main story quests to unlock a bunch of things, like Duty Finder.

Paladin needs you to do all the gladiator job quests and have lv15 conjurer

My wife did titan EX for the 1st time 2 days ago.. with 10% echo down it.
Then went onto ifrit EX and one and done no echo.

Then I did titan EX for the 1st time had it sitting in my quest log for months 15% echo and we got it down.

Vote to abandon I only say yes on when the party is so bad there is no chance of getting a clear.
She has now done titan EX 5 times since 1st win. Winning 4/6 time and 1 of the time it failed was 15% echo and got it down to ~10%. At this point a Vote to abandon happened it didn't pass a DRG quit and the rest of the group got the win with 7.

So ya sure things get easier. But people also need to try and learn, and it maybe a cake walk for some but try to remember it being your 1st time it wasn't.

to me the definition of elisit is simple, its someone who says:

"I don't go in a t5, unless i am being paid for it"

to me , going to help people in t5 or t9 or what ever is fun and part of the game, helping others weather it's a new player or a friend is something that adds to the game in my opinuin.

while elitist, never bother doing anyting in the game, unless they geting gill seller's money for it

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

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Before I left the Free Company due to timezone issues, Scarlet was a pretty strong leader last I remember. Not sure if it matters or not, but during my time in the FC, it is usually the person asking for help that invites the players who wish to help out. Not pointing fingers or anything since I had left a long while ago (last year to be exact). Of course, it wasn't all good during my time with them. As I mentioned before, timezone issues was the reason; I was usually alone. Anyway, I can't say for anything that has happened recently because I have since not talked to Scarlet and most of the players I've met also have moved on, so apologies if I sound one-sided.

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Eh, honestly, I don't think anyone should be proud about being an 'elitist', but nobody can deny that they are just a little bit of one. Everyone has an inner elitist~

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Originally Posted by starLivitation

to me the definition of elisit is simple, its someone who says:

"I don't go in a t5, unless i am being paid for it"

to me , going to help people in t5 or t9 or what ever is fun and part of the game, helping others weather it's a new player or a friend is something that adds to the game in my opinuin.

while elitist, never bother doing anyting in the game, unless they geting gill seller's money for it

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That's not a good example, there's plenty of casuals that only do an instance for their clear and never look back again. Like all those people bailing on steps of faith. I would really rather them not waste any more resources on this cesspool they call a story. If they gonna make a trial, make it an extreme level trial and give people some decent gear for doing it.

So pointless we have all these trials that people only do one time. Such a waste of manpower.

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Originally Posted by starLivitation

to me the definition of elisit is simple, its someone who says:

"I don't go in a t5, unless i am being paid for it"

to me , going to help people in t5 or t9 or what ever is fun and part of the game, helping others weather it's a new player or a friend is something that adds to the game in my opinuin.

while elitist, never bother doing anyting in the game, unless they geting gill seller's money for it

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Except that's not what an elitist is.

The elitist says: What? No i135 gear? I'll not go to T5 with such a peasant as you!

That's an elitist. An elitist is someone who holds others to an unreasonable and often unattainable standard.

What you're describing is at best a merc, and at worst an ass.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

That's an elitist. An elitist is someone who holds others to an unreasonable and often unattainable standard.

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An elitist also says, "Wow, that guy has Dreadwyrm gear. He must have no life and is a loser! Probably also a jerk!"

Point being; a casual can also be as elitist as a veteran. Heck, anyone can be elitist. The term is very broad and isn't anchored to one group specifically. The general accepted meaning as far as I've seen it being used is for players who look down upon other players; regardless if they are newcomers or veterans. Long story short, don't be a jerk no matter what.

I never did like the concept of Casuals and Hardcore. I saw this first pop up back in 2002 when I was playing on the EQ RP server. I was pretty ignorant back then when it came to MMORPG mechanics and the like. I wasn't bad at the game, but I didn't know the game. Not enough to be successful. But I did mostly RP so it didn't matter so much. Eventually I hit max level or near max level, as the PoP expansion just came out.

In this expansion I realized that for me to even do some of the group content, I need to pick up my game a tad. So I asked questions. And got answers. People were more sociable back then since EQ was a much slower paced game compared to later ones. I took what I found out and ran with it. Started getting good at the classes I was playing. Doing their roles and sub roles very well.

I took this knowledge back with me and tried to elevate my friends. Some tried. Some did well with it. But when failures started happening, the excuse was, "we're just casaul."

WoW came out and I moved with some people to that. Again, did the RP thing again. This game was way more complex than EQ. In EQ you had HP, Mana, Atk, and AC... with some focus effects thrown in. Now in WoW there was attack speed, crit, and other stuff. We also had a hotbar.. full of abilities... then two hotbars as you got closer to 60. I know this sounds weird now, but in 2004, it was a big jump to say the least.

Back in 2004 and early 2005, people did PUGs for some of the beginning end game dungeons. You had roles and sub roles.. like hunters were DPS, but they were expected to trap stuff, and kite things. I learned those things. Heck I even learned how to trap two things at once (for the time it was a decent trick), doubling my worth in that role. Again I tried to bring back my knowledge to some of my friends, again the excuse was, "we're just casual."

2006 rolls around. I join the army, and I'm out of gaming for a year for training (basic + school). Get to my first duty station and get back into WoW. Friends I once played with, are scattered across servers. So I begin anew with some real like friends of mine. The focus is on Raiding, not RP. Now I'm with a group that is considered 'hardcore'. I took everything in like sponge and learned the ins and outs of the game and did quite well.

I don't wish to tell the whole story between 2007 and 2010, as it involves many games as well as people. But I will say this. I've learned things that just made me ask more questions. Why do people sell themselves short? I used to be there with people who identify as casual. They're capable people. They can learn the game, but they lack the initiative to take it further. Some claim dexterity issues, or incapable of computing some 'crazy' math or some other excuse. But its always an excuse. I honestly think anyone can do what they want to do.

But therein lies the question. What do these people want to do? I've learned that you can't make them learn what they don't want to do. You just can't. They like where they are. And that is where they wish to stay. Don't push it.

At least that's how its always been till 2010.

It seems every decade brings a paradigm shift to gaming. In 1990s you had players who would coordinate over landline phones to get things done. They had email and IM back then. But calling someone got you a response instantly. Over time the 'hardcore' has lightened up a tad lol. But one thing I have seen with the 'casual' is drastic changes.

In the 90s, they were fine where they were. In fact the term casual merely meant you played less than hardcore.
In the 2000s, it started being used as a derogatory term by those who were 'hardcore'.
in the 2010s, we're seeing people like the OP talked about in his/her initial post. Hardcore is now the derogatory term.

When you have people like me, who have seen online gaming since 1995, we have a sense of... perspective to say the least. The way the terms hardcore and casual are used have changed. But the people who identify as either, haven't changed in one way. That is, the amount of time and effort put into what they are doing. Casual plays a little less than a hardcore player does on average. That's really the only difference.

At least that's been the constant. Other factors have changed of course. But that is mostly self imposed. The polarization effect has happened not because developers made games that caused it. But because players naturally are drawn to charismatic people that have a likeness or perceived likeness to them. Hardcores are drawn to the message that they are the victims being preyed upon by casuals trying to be carried. And Casuals are claiming to be victims because the better off, are not taking the time to help them or impose outrageous demands upon them.

Both stances are actually pretty ridiculous.

What we have going is trolls from both sides causing issues (well not really any side, and I'll get to that in a moment). And the best thing to do is to realize that. Your average hardcore player is hardcore because no only is he or she good at what they do and have the gear to do it. They know people whom they can group with to get it done. You know what they do? They group up with those players get the content done and you never hear or see them (content is instanced).

Your average casual player is the same way. They stick to their own. Doing the stuff they believe they can do. They stay away from places where they would be expected to do anything outside their comfort zone.

So where are the real complaints coming from. What about the paradigm shift I spoke about earlier? This is where it gets ridiculous. Its the players inbetween causing trouble with each other. Try this. Use the duty finder for low level dungeon. And watch how good or bad players are. You will notice that things go.. well averagely. Players aren't for the most part goofing it up and wiping. But they aren't exactly stellar either.

But when something goes wrong, the accusations go out about someone being too hardcore or too casual. Your average player, is Neither.

But the polarization between hardcores and casuals has gone on for so long. And people forgot the meanings behind the labels. And now use them as derogatory terms for one another. That we're seeing these debates coming up. Yes.. thats right. People calling people casuals and hardcore are actually not that much better or worse at the game than each other. And probably play on average, the same amount of time. And the funny thing is, they're PUGing.

Casuals don't PUG. And neither do Hardcores. They haven't in 20 years. Casuals skip content they can't do unless they have a friend bring them through. And Hardcores stick to their own.

So what is really going on is players mis-identifying themselves or others. Now I will say this, there is massive differences between one average player and another. There are many who can do the extremes. There are many who cannot. But to be honest this isn't due to skill or how long they are playing. It comes down to personal responsibility. Your player that can't progress content and blames everyone else instead of themselves is NOT going to progress. The one who turns inward and tries to improve will progress... eventually. That is one sad fact is you need a certain number of responsible players to progress if using the queues.

But you're not hardcore if you seek aid with like minded players. I would love to see more players do this. Stop making accusations to each other. Group with like minded players. You don't have to be hardcore to be in helpful FCs or LSs. And you don't have to label yourself as a casual and sell yourself short. You can do anything you wish to do. Don't label others, and especially don't label yourself.

OP brought up some interesting points. But I fear they are failing to take personal responsibility. Especially since allegations are popping up about their FC. We'll see what they have to say to those. But in the end, they are free to run their FC and their own play however they wish. But I fear they are on a road to frustration, but thats a road they have to choose for themselves. I'm not going to judge. I am only going to worry about how I present and conduct myself. I know what it takes to be successful in a MMORPG in the goals I wish to pursue. And I know what it takes to ultimately have fun.

To the rest of you. Don't get wrapped up in what others do or don't do. Set a goal. And set a pace for that goal. Next surround yourselves with people with a similar goal and pace. You should do alright.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

An elitist also says, "Wow, that guy has Dreadwyrm gear. He must have no life and is a loser! Probably also a jerk!"

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No. "Elitist" actually has a pretty narrow definition. It's a form of superiority complex. It's misused beyond all imagination to mean pretty much "anyone I don't like."

What you've described there is a form of inferiority complex being deflected.

You're right that being a jerk is bad, regardless of which side you're doing it on behalf of.

I can't believe this is still going.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

I can't believe this is still going.

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That's because there's no new content. Ergo, people will beat the dead horse to death till new content comes out. Goodness knows my time in PAYDAY 2 and L4D2 forums were prime examples of it.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

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Ahhh the good old days of decades past.. I remember when I was playing WoW during closed beta, we had a group of lv 16 mage (myself), 17 Rogue, 27 Paladin, and I don't remember the others.. Well, we ran the dungeon for about 3 hours until respawn, we didn't make it. So we regrouped and tried a second time, over all it took us nearly 6 hours to finish the first dungeon in the game. None of us knew what we were doing, we wiped wiped and wiped.. But we didn't give up..

After that, we all kept in touch and made a guild together, guild expanded and we moved into open beta as Horde, made a new guild and over a dozen of us carried over.. It was one of the best experiences I remember playing any MMO in my entire life.. 2 days into open beta, we're all lv ~20 so we go to Southshore and wage a war with half a dozen of us on the shores :) I still remember it like yesterday and that was over a decade ago..

We didn't have elitist/casuals back then.. MMOs were pretty much geared towards hard core players. When people got sick of short, single player RPGs or the endless grind that was Diablo II, they would move on to MMOs, it was almost a rite of passage for gamers, you start off with simple games, then you either move into RTS, FPS, or MMO. We didn't have high expectations of others, we would explain fights as we go along, we would learn mechanics by trial and error...

I have to admit, until HM dungeons, I haven't had to look up any mechanics in the dungeons in this game as WAR tank.. mechanics? dodge the red stuff, click on the shiny stuff.. I've come to a point now where I've become so jaded when I see people that are utterly clueless in dungeons and refuse to listen to advice on the mechanics/strategy.. I just give up on them and hope not to run into them again. I have no problem with people taking the game casually, but when they join a party and refuse to at least pull their own weight, there really isn't much else to do.. People take pride in mediocrity these days, healthy attitude about gaming sure, but come on, we're playing an MMO, invest some time in it, 2 hrs a day, 6 hrs a day, 14 hrs a day, nothing wrong with that :P

I'm not able to put in that kind of time anymore, so I opt out of raids and higher lvl dungeons, but I know what I'll have to do if I want to get into those contents... I don't think that I'm entitled to have 7 people working in tandem just to pull my dead weight, so I don't go to these things unless I'm prepared.. It's not a matter of courtesy to others, I just know the likelihood of failure with my inexperience and unpreparedness, I don't want to waste my own time either.. What's the point in that?