What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

I still remember the initial story blurb for Shadowbringers claiming we'd "take the fight to the Garlean Empire" for...some reason. I guess maybe at that part of the writing process they were still intending for them to have a significant role to play...or they may have simply been trying to mislead us as we were still in 4.4 when the announcement happened.

The Shadowbringers trailer was also odd because some of the events depicted did actually happen off-screen before we arrived at the First and are referenced in-game, whereas Endwalker's was comparatively rather misleading and implied the Final Days were going to be way worse then they actually ended up being in practice.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

EW would have handled hope well enough if there was actual despair to be felt. The hope, and the message of hope, was there and pretty solid. There just wasn't any real despair to counter it. I know I never felt it even for a second. So yeah, it rang pretty hollow and fell flat on its face.

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^ Partially this. The only people group on our planet who had to face actual real despair got told to suck it up and just die cause they wanted to try and mitigate their suffering instead of reveling in it. When our 'heroes' talk about hope overcoming despair, I have to ask, what despair? Although I do think that the message of hope that the expansion had did need some work, it would have been far better if there was actual despair to overcome with said hope.

When I think about it, hope prevailing over despair is an ever-present theme throughout XIV's story, yet despite Endwalker being the one that tried to push it to the forefront, it didn't actually get that much attention.

The Final Days were horrifying and all, but they were fleeting compared to things like the senseless millenia-long Dragonsong War, the decades-long Garlean occupation of Gyr Abania and Doma, and the century-long plague of light on the First. We met people who were despondent and couldn't imagine change after suffering and fear had become like a fact of life to them, but we kindled the spark of hope in their hearts and we built up those who still hung onto it against the odds. The entire focus of those expansions was trying to break the status quo and create a better future for their respective regions.

I still feel like they really needed to put more emphasis on the whole "end of world" thing instead of it just being a footnote that was mostly addressed in a half-zone via a culling of the beasts and some pep talks. I was expecting something truly catastrophic like the entire world having to deal with similar conditions to Thavnair. Imagine if instead of having a beast outbreak in the remote snowfields of the Magna Glacies, all of Eorzea was being affected instead with the Scions having divide their efforts among the city states. Having those unnatural burning skies over places we'd long since grown familiar with would've been much more distressing then those we'd only recently grown acquainted with.

But alas, perhaps I am simply "thinking too hard" about the story.

No yeah I definitely agree with you. I think replacing the sky box everywhere is the least they could've done, even if it risks feeling like a retread of ShB with its highly specific sky box. The Final Days were underwhelming as hell...

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Originally Posted by Tsiron

No yeah I definitely agree with you. I think replacing the sky box everywhere is the least they could've done, even if it risks feeling like a retread of ShB with its highly specific sky box. The Final Days were underwhelming as hell...

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It IS pretty sad when Deathwing flying around having a good time blowing up the newbies from zone to zone from WoW's Cata xpac felt more like the world was burning than the most of EW. :/

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

When I think about it, hope prevailing over despair is an ever-present theme throughout XIV's story, yet despite Endwalker being the one that tried to push it to the forefront, it didn't actually get that much attention.

The Final Days were horrifying and all, but they were fleeting compared to things like the senseless millenia-long Dragonsong War, the decades-long Garlean occupation of Gyr Abania and Doma, and the century-long plague of light on the First. We met people who were despondent and couldn't imagine change after suffering and fear had become like a fact of life to them, but we kindled the spark of hope in their hearts and we built up those who still hung onto it against the odds. The entire focus of those expansions was trying to break the status quo and create a better future for their respective regions.

I still feel like they really needed to put more emphasis on the whole "end of world" thing instead of it just being a footnote that was mostly addressed in a half-zone via a culling of the beasts and some pep talks. I was expecting something truly catastrophic like the entire world having to deal with similar conditions to Thavnair. Imagine if instead of having a beast outbreak in the remote snowfields of the Magna Glacies, all of Eorzea was being affected instead with the Scions having divide their efforts among the city states. Having those unnatural burning skies over places we'd long since grown familiar with would've been much more distressing then those we'd only recently grown acquainted with.

But alas, perhaps I am simply "thinking too hard" about the story.

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Really wish the sky did burn everywhere, was kinda sad they limited it.

"It's the end of the world! But only locally. What do you mean the Warrior of Light saw the sky be affected globally twice in another world? Do we look like we're called Norvrandt?"

Only the garleans and the people of Thavnair are really affected? NO! The whole WORLD is affected! Source: trust me dude

I've finally bit the bullet and picked up WoW. Played it for 3 days so far, and barely have a handle on the massive amounts of lore going on with it - yet its stories have made me feel more in 3 days than Endwalker has since release.

Absolutely appalling how lackluster and unsatisfying this expansion has been; the 10 year capstone to a story, done so dirty like this.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

When I think about it, hope prevailing over despair is an ever-present theme throughout XIV's story, yet despite Endwalker being the one that tried to push it to the forefront, it didn't actually get that much attention.

The Final Days were horrifying and all, but they were fleeting compared to things like the senseless millenia-long Dragonsong War, the decades-long Garlean occupation of Gyr Abania and Doma, and the century-long plague of light on the First. We met people who were despondent and couldn't imagine change after suffering and fear had become like a fact of life to them, but we kindled the spark of hope in their hearts and we built up those who still hung onto it against the odds. The entire focus of those expansions was trying to break the status quo and create a better future for their respective regions.

I still feel like they really needed to put more emphasis on the whole "end of world" thing instead of it just being a footnote that was mostly addressed in a half-zone via a culling of the beasts and some pep talks. I was expecting something truly catastrophic like the entire world having to deal with similar conditions to Thavnair. Imagine if instead of having a beast outbreak in the remote snowfields of the Magna Glacies, all of Eorzea was being affected instead with the Scions having divide their efforts among the city states. Having those unnatural burning skies over places we'd long since grown familiar with would've been much more distressing then those we'd only recently grown acquainted with.

But alas, perhaps I am simply "thinking too hard" about the story.

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They could really have hamped up the whole world in the Role Quests instead of just "oh some Blasphemies are been sighting" to "we saw a blasphemy" at 85 and quickly scalonated to the final days until 89 and then the aftermatch with Old Sharlayan being the only exception with the protection of Hydaelyn.

They kind of dug themselves into a hole by making the EW role quests totally optional as it necessitated that whatever threat was involved in them had to be minor enough as to be entirely skippable which further downplayed the threat of the Final Days.

I'll honestly be a bit surprised if they even get a passing mention in future MSQ unless they actually decide to not sweep the dynamis/blasphemy business under the rug and it plays into 6.5/7.x somehow.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

I've finally bit the bullet and picked up WoW. Played it for 3 days so far, and barely have a handle on the massive amounts of lore going on with it - yet its stories have made me feel more in 3 days than Endwalker has since release.

Absolutely appalling how lackluster and unsatisfying this expansion has been; the 10 year capstone to a story, done so dirty like this.

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WoW's story isn't always amazing, but for the most part it has kept me entertained since 2009. And yeah, some of the quests and parts of the stories can hit you right in the feels. One thing to keep in mind though is that if you want to experience anything prior to BfA a bit more in depth, you will likely want to make another character. You will gain access to Chromie Time on any alts after you finish leveling your first character, which will give you the opportunity to quest through any expansion of your choosing. WoW's a very alt-centric game, just as a fair warning. Now is a great time to start though for anyone wanting to take the plunge.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They kind of dug themselves into a hole by making the EW role quests totally optional as it necessitated that whatever threat was involved in them had to be minor enough as to be entirely skippable which further downplayed the threat of the Final Days.

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What I find particularly annoying about this is how they are adding more to the EW role quests. Stuff that has the absolute most faintest guiding thread. It ends with Nerva, solving not only a lingering question from the MSQ but also from the sidequests. And now they're adding information on the Four Fiends. I fail to see what "beating up a bunch of Blasphemies" has anything to do with "a Hecteye wants to experience our world in exchange for information on Splinter and his four pet turtles".

Also, let's compare why Endwalker fails where Shadowbringers succeeded. Because technically both cases had us deal with "minor" threats that were personal to NPCs we knew, and in doing so, unveil more about the world and their stories. Because it's really curious.
Shadowbringers nails it by making the four warriors of light interesting characters. Throughout it all you're being told their past lives and how it influenced their story.
Endwalker fails by casting out any investment and beat around the bush. Not always, which reveals some inconsistency. The characters that they expand upon either already had their moment and were really just repeating the same key, or were so far past us that it really feels like an absolute chore having to go through that sob story all over again. But while some stories were a logical continuation of events that had happened very recently (Limsa showing us that not everyone is so keen to forgive and forget as presented in the previous expansion), others were just ruminating on buried content.

You only had a basic gist of who the Warriors of Light were as a group, you didn't know them directly. We got a three-way win: you get to experience the tale with Ardbert and give him closure, you find out more about the Warriors of Light and you even get to know more about what's otherwise just a large island surrounded by a desert planet. All while shedding some light on the calamity itself, slowly uncovering a mystery.
Endwalker offers you further closure on characters that either already had it or didn't need it. Harping on themes and characters that already had their piece isn't going to work. And while sure, you can always add a bit more for the sake of continuity, at some point you must wonder whether you're really "giving continuity" or whether you're beating a dead horse. Fordola didn't need another moment to establish that "she's fine but must repent". That was clear after Lakshmi. Or the Heavens' Ward quests. We didn't need to go through this drama again. Not after the DRK quests, not after Ishgard Restoration and the delivery NPCs, and bleeding hells, not after the MSQ itself already made their losses clear.

Then there's the mystery and its implications. Throughout SHB's quests, we wonder "Who's she? She wasn't around before...". And no quest tells you anything major about her. Only at the end are we given the truth about her. It leads to interesting interactions with our further adventures. We go to the moon, we beat up Mommy and Daddy, we open portals to the Void, they comment on all that. And it provides continuity to Unukalhai's until-then disjointed story and hypes future adventures.
Endwalker falls flat on its face for this one. Nothing is set up for Nerva than the MSQ and sidequests in Garlemald. We do the dance with Nerva, we talk to Garleans and convince more to join up and try to work together with the rest of the world... and then...
Out of nowhere, after Zero takes a nappie, we're treated with a Hecteyes who exposits on the bosses we just beat up. Why? And what does this have to do with Nerva or Blasphemies? It just makes me feel like to obtain this information, I had to go through a chore. And Nerva's death really only resolved one area's story, there's nothing more to him, it doesn't connect to Golbez.

Finally, there's the issue of tone. Shadowbringers sets its job quests during the Flood of Light. Even after you're done with Hades, there are still Sin Eaters around, so the existence of the other Virtues doesn't clash with the ending. And even if we go through Eden, there's only the hope that the future will be better. The Sin Eaters are still a present-day threat. Prior to Amaurot, those quests have as much tension as the rest of the expansion. Past Amaurot, the tension is lowered, sure, but the danger is still real. We know what they're capable of, and Shadowbringers always had that "doom is upon us" feel to it.
A feel that Endwalker failed to live up to despite it being released under an "End of Days" banner. The tone was "doom may be upon us". With how weak the execution of the Final Days was, the presence of Blasphemies worldwide is indeed a tension-building prospect... that leads nowhere. The threats are too localized, the deaths are minimal and the effects are cosmetic at worst. "Local impact" isn't what you're going during "the end of the freaking world". Sure, there was the potential for things to go sideways should we fail. But this is Final Fantasy. That we "won't fail" is a foregone conclusion. The writers forgot how to be genre-savvy. Which is funny because Shadowbringers was. Obviously we were going to be fine, but not only were the consequences going to be long-lasting if we didn't succeed at the right time, at no point other were we given any moment to feel comfortable about our situation. On Endwalker, I felt I've fought worse... And having your major antagonist show up at the end and literally tell everyone "Really? Haven't you fought worse?" makes the writer look insecure.

The only people in Endwalker that seemed to get a substantial dose of despair were those unfortunate enough to be transformed into (or mauled by) recycled Final Days monster #239424295, the loved ones of those victims, and every living Garlean pureblood. Those fortunate enough to survive the Final Days largely seem to have bounced back a little too quickly for any message to be put forward. ...Except the Garleans purebloods, who I would almost bet money are on the fast track to extinction.

All in all, you really can't convey a message of overcoming despair without first adequately portraying said despair. Endwalker failed utterly in this regard. The lack of consequences after the fact was just icing on the cake.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

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Really well put, nice job!

To me it seems like Endwalker should be the visual next to Anti-Climax in the dictionary.

From the Tower of Zot to the Moon. From Elpis to Ultima Thule.

We constantly have the story telling us that the stakes are super high. Those towers got built up and lingered in zones for months prior to release. Bowled over two dungeons in. Zodiark on the moon was a big WOW and sort of a GOTCHA moment, but after the shock of it wore off, it was a letdown. Thavnair was how the entirety of the world should have been suffering by the time we came back from the past.

Elpis wanted to have its cake and eat it too. Mary Sue'd up Venat, bent the plot around her. Similarly, the fakeout deaths seem to have left no lasting impact on the Scions. EW wants to have its cake and eat it, too.

It did a lot of telling and not a lot of showing. All while hardly resolving anything from ages past properly. In EW, resolving the past is literally done by destroying it.

It's bad pacing. Lots of good ideas but very poor execution so the story is all over the place. Also Loporrits.

The real MSQ in Hildibrand is here though so the storytelling is gonna get good real fast.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

WoW's story isn't always amazing, but for the most part it has kept me entertained since 2009. And yeah, some of the quests and parts of the stories can hit you right in the feels. One thing to keep in mind though is that if you want to experience anything prior to BfA a bit more in depth, you will likely want to make another character. You will gain access to Chromie Time on any alts after you finish leveling your first character, which will give you the opportunity to quest through any expansion of your choosing. WoW's a very alt-centric game, just as a fair warning. Now is a great time to start though for anyone wanting to take the plunge.

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Yeah, most of the overworld quests are mid to 'good enough' (though I've found most of them entertaining, at least), which can be said for FFXIV as well. Some of those big cutscenes, though, oof-- barely knew much about Varian beyond what I'd learned from a quick lore recap video I watched while waiting on the game to download, but that cutscene of him sacrificing himself so the rest of the Alliance could escape Gul'dan and the Legion was heavy. Thrall's escape and departing words to Taretha, too, that got me a bit. Hells, when I started out and was guided into BfA stuff, barely knew much about Jaina but that cutscene on the way to Boralus just kicked me in the teeth.

A friend's been guiding me through some of the older stuff so I can get more context, but I definitely plan to make a 'story alt' of sorts to try and go back from the beginning - after I finish grinding for the Lightforged Draenei/Void Elves, and my big ol' 150k apexis raven lmao.

I think a lot of WoW's charm comes out of it being pretty meaty lore that maybe isn't always strung together well, but still feels like an actual world going on - instead of something made specifically for a single super special awesome hero. Gives me old school D&D adventure vibes, honestly - like, you're playing with a not-always-amazing DM who has a ton of cool ideas they try to work into the campaign for their players, with varying degrees of success but always entertaining. It's just very charming, in its own way.

Good break from ESO while I wait on Firesong to drop, and also still a better and more entertaining game than FFXIV has become lately. I'm looking forward to Dragonflight!

You know.... I've pondered for a time, thought about it, ruminated on its potential meaning....

And, I've come to the conclusion that there was no point.

Meteion was right, what was the point? Was there ever even one? Why do we live, play, suffer, only to die unfulfilled?

Clearly, Venat failed to show us the way. Someone call Reyn, cuz I'm really not feeling it.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

The real MSQ in Hildibrand is here though so the storytelling is gonna get good real fast.

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That's a weird way to spell Pandæmonium. Though the thought that the side quests are more engaging than the MSQ gives me a hearty chuckle, lol.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

You know.... I've pondered for a time, thought about it, ruminated on its potential meaning....

And, I've come to the conclusion that there was no point.

Meteion was right, what was the point? Was there ever even one? Why do we live, play, suffer, only to die unfulfilled?

Clearly, Venat failed to show us the way. Someone call Reyn, cuz I'm really not feeling it.

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"Why do you fight, WoL?"
"Because my Wonderous Tales book will expire next week. /shrug"

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

"Why do you fight, WoL?"
"Because my Wonderous Tales book will expire next week. /shrug"

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An infinitely more worthy thing to fight for, than Eorzea.

"To believe in Eorzea, is to believe in NOTHING."

Can't believe it took me so long to convert to the Gospel of the Lord Gaius....

smh

Did the final stretch of Legion questing needed for the Achievement to unlock access to Lightforged and Void, today, and couldn't help feeling some parallels between Venat and Xe'ra. Both attempting to impose and enforce what they think someone should do and the 'destiny' they should forge, regardless of how anyone else - especially the Chosen One - felt about it.

Was cathartic to see Illidan blow that overgrown chandelier up in denial of her trying to exert her own will and path upon him. Wish we'd had a similar option to at least say something against Venat, even if the game still forced us to continue on the path regardless.

On that note, WoW does a heck of a better job showing massive battlefields and fighting during apocalyptic-level invasions than FFXIV ever has. You'd think with how much Yoshi tried to copy it, he'd have at least took some lessons in how to create proper set pieces.

It is really awkward in hindsight how much of a stark contrast what we were presented with in the cinematic trailer and benchmark were compared to reality.

We have the entire world ablaze and the Eorzean Alliance having to unite their forces to keep the blasphemies in check, but come Endwalker proper, the vast majority of the on-screen damage is contained strictly to Thavnair and does not even manifest in any sort of persistent manner post-MSQ to remind you that anything had gone wrong there at all. Corvos is also stated as having been struck badly but for now, that's a big ol' case of tell but don't show until we go there eventually (Which is hopefully sooner then later given their recent statement of having plans for it).

The actual threat outside of those regions was so small as to not even warrant any large scale mobilization from the grand companies and for those who skip over the role quests it can simply be assumed that they managed to handle the problem without you.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It is really awkward in hindsight how much of a stark contrast what we were presented with in the cinematic trailer and benchmark were compared to reality.

We have the entire world ablaze and the Eorzean Alliance having to unite their forces to keep the blasphemies in check, but come Endwalker proper, the vast majority of the on-screen damage is contained strictly to Thavnair and does not even manifest in any sort of persistent manner post-MSQ to remind you that anything had gone wrong there at all. Corvos is also stated as having been struck badly but for now, that's a big ol' case of tell but don't show until we go there eventually (Which is hopefully sooner then later given their recent statement of having plans for it).

The actual threat outside of those regions was so small as to not even warrant any large scale mobilization from the grand companies and for those who skip over the role quests it can simply be assumed that they managed to handle the problem without you.

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Kind of worse after you do the role quests, cause you can chock each region up to, "Well, this one big monster caused a problem, and the WoL helped handle it with the city leader..." But then you know, you've got these random NPCs, some still without names (Keeper of Entwined Serpents) keeping pace with these absurdly strong Blasphemies. Which does basically mean they could have handled it without you if they'd had the gumption. Heck, in the Melee role quests, the blonde Lorens or Laurence or whatever his name is showing up and deducing he can shoot the Blasphemies problem energy balls to stop them is what lets you win.

As if the WoL wasn't just outright strong enough to stop any of the Blasphemies singlehandedly, you know, having stopped/being able to stop Meteion.

I mean, they do raise some lore and intrigue and have good character moments, but they're also basically monster of the week stories. I mean, I enjoyed them, but they don't do any favors for the MSQ whether done during or in post.

Aaaaaaah, you guys gotta stop reminding me just how bad Endwalker was. Seriously.

Forget the Journey, it's the narrative potholes and flaws and plotbumps that never end.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

As if the WoL wasn't just outright strong enough to stop any of the Blasphemies singlehandedly, you know, having stopped/being able to stop Meteion.

I mean, they do raise some lore and intrigue and have good character moments, but they're also basically monster of the week stories. I mean, I enjoyed them, but they don't do any favors for the MSQ whether done during or in post.

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Except the WoL didn't single-handedly stop Meteion, either. It took the WoL, plus the 7 other "summoned" heroes, plus the Scions providing the shield against the second LB that would've completely the wiped the WoL otherwise...it makes perfect sense that a team of people likewise stops the blasphemies. And this time around, the role quests weren't meant to directly support the MSQ, but rather be optional side-stories that provide a good deal of world building for those interested.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Except the WoL didn't single-handedly stop Meteion, either. It took the WoL, plus the 7 other "summoned" heroes, plus the Scions providing the shield against the second LB that would've completely the wiped the WoL otherwise...it makes perfect sense that a team of people likewise stops the blasphemies. And this time around, the role quests weren't meant to directly support the MSQ, but rather be optional side-stories that provide a good deal of world building for those interested.

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Nah man Zenos carried the whole fight.

I've come to accept that the WoL is simply as strong/competent as the plot/writers need them to be, and us being challenged/threatened by things we logically wouldn't have any issues steamrolling for the sake of drama is going to continue being a trend.

I think it's preferable to having constant threat escalation considering what we dealt with recently, though, and sometimes they make it work better by giving an antagonist some kind of sneaky trick or gimmick that we need someone's help to overcome.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Except the WoL didn't single-handedly stop Meteion, either. It took the WoL, plus the 7 other "summoned" heroes, plus the Scions providing the shield against the second LB that would've completely the wiped the WoL otherwise...it makes perfect sense that a team of people likewise stops the blasphemies. And this time around, the role quests weren't meant to directly support the MSQ, but rather be optional side-stories that provide a good deal of world building for those interested.

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The Scions' "prayers" were WORTHLESS. Change my mind. Zenos is literally the only reason the Endsinger didn't carpet bomb our literal asses. And however non-canon it may be, Endsinger EX at least proves the WoL never actually needed their prayers. What with the constant insufferable meme-ing of "This is our boss theme!" and "Now we're the Final Boss!" it becomes abundantly clear that the "prayers" and the entire second phase of the fight was nothing more than hype.

No narrative was required, and thus no narrative was posited. We saved the universe through the power of friendship, but also because our meta 4D overlords from another dimension handed us a win because they thought we'd look cool kicking Evil God #380276894's ass.

Cause: cutscene where the scions prayed and channeled their power to us.

Effect: a second lb3 to survive another blast that Zenos made no attempt to dodge.

Can't change your mind on this one Crowder but you're not making a good argument yourself when the Minstrel is your best reason we didn't need the Scions.

Didn't we get a full LB3 during the WoL battle? I don't remember the scions praying back then

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

snip

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When I left wow as my mmo of choice 5 years ago for this game (not that I ever played wow, really), never would I have thought THESE nuclear hot takes would follow me here. Yet here we are.

I won't go into detail, because I already said what I needed to on the wow forums a half decade ago, but I will give the cliff notes. The mag'har orc scenario was also another scene of "these people are not only monsters, they are delusional, why are we working with them?" that the community missed a point of by a mile.

illidan is a mass murdering psychopath, a narcissist par excellance, and a madman to boot. The scene you are speaking of here was meant to show two things:
1) illidan is and always will be a villain.
2) illidan is just sargeras 2.0, and when sargeras is gone illidan will just be the next one utterly indistinguishable from the first.

There were hints of this throughout legion's story, but it was never beat over the head of the player so most people missed it. This was even a major plot point of tbc, and the sole reason altruis the sufferer is a character is to point this out. All his interactions in tbc and legion shows this as well.

illidan's problem with sargearas is not anything to do with what sergeras does or is, as illidan does all that himself and then some; illidan's problem is that he is not the one personally doing it. illidan is stalin to sargeras' lenin. it's a raw, nihilistic will to power disguised as a sickening "anti-heroism" because people fall for that kind of thing.

The irony of the scene is as such:
A) illidan was born lightforged by xe'ra, in fact xe'ra is his real mother.
B) illidan was good at everything because he was lightforged.
C) illidan was terribly lost because despite being competent at everything, he had a gaping wound missing from him just not fitting in anywhere; even his own family was foreign to him.
D) sergeras knew what illidan was, who xe'ra was, and was deathly afraid of him for it.

All that provided a careful concoction ripe for making illidan as mentally ill as possible, and with sergeras being a master maniupulator he found illidan easy to dominate by just trying to fill the "missing parent" part of illidan. Of course illidan knew something was wrong, and quickly shirked off sergeras' influence but it just made illidan's hunger for family worse.

this ultimately lead into illidan working for sergeras without knowing it. every self-hurt, every evil act, every "sacrifice" (each being the "scars" illidan held so close) proved to be a wonderful excuse for allowing illdan to commit any evil he wanted.

commit genocide? scars. enslave multiple races? scars. try to enslave two whole planets? scars. Mommy issues hidden behind foster-daddy issues? SCARS!

(the site very churlishly informed me I have to break this post into multiple parts because it's too long)

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

DOUBLE SNIP

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(continued from above)

In comes xe'ra, illidan's real mom, seeing her son all messed up and she tries to fix him. What xe'ra would not allow herself to see though was that illidan's scars were self-inflicted, and illidan would rather commit suicide by become sargeras 2.0 than see himself. illidan didn't cut out his eyes so he wouldn't see the horrors of the same void that made sargeras go mad, illidan cut out his eyes so he would never see his victims and most of all never see himself.

without his "scars," without his excuses, illidan would see just how far he fell. Realizing they are a fallen paragon would kill any narcissist worth their title, so illidan would do anything to keep afloat the sick delusion that he is a monster "risen" by himself through his own bootstraps. all sergeras wanted to do was to corrupt illidan so much that he wouldn't even recognize his own mother, and in that he succeeded.

what sergeras did not succeed in was saving his own life. while illidan tried to shatter his own mother, her power still remained within him, and using it illidan struck down sergeras.

the only problem was illidan's own narcissism lead to him becoming sergeras, so nothing was lost, and without xe'ra little is gained; so illidan's fate as a future raid tier boss is sealed in stone, sergeras just changed names he was never defeated.

BUT you ARE right to point out the similarities between the warrior of light and illidan, but there is a difference that makes all the difference though:
illidan never knew his mother and so therefore could not recognize her, the warrior of light does know his mother and cannot forget her.

you were not allowed to insert your own (very strange) illidan-like desires into dealing with venat, because azem DOES know and Love his mother even if you would rather not.

This is my first and probably last post on this forum, this site loads like molasses and I write too much for 3000 character limits; Goodbye.

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Originally Posted by MisterMagician

you were not allowed to insert your own (very strange) illidan-like desires into dealing with venat, because azem DOES know and Love his mother even if you would rather not.

This is my first and probably last post on this forum, this site loads like molasses and I write too much for 3000 character limits; Goodbye.

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I would love it if Yoshi would stop taking away my character's agency and forcing them into ridiculous dynamics like the one the story prescribed for my character and Venat. Are we supposed to self-insert into our Wols/Azems or not? Can't wait for a short story next year to confirm we were rushing to that woman's side just before she wiped out her own race. Widen the chasm between the player character and myself even more.

I don't think that's going to happen. Azem disagreed with both summonings, and that's canon. And did you do the omega side quest? You had the opportunity to say you disagreed with what Venat did, and I think that's by design.

Azem disagreed and got sundered as a result. But rabbit face mother knows best right?

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Azem disagreed and got sundered as a result. But rabbit face mother knows best right?

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Small correction, Azem never said they disagree with Venat, they just didn't respond when asked to summon Hydaelyn.
That can have many more implications than them simply disagreeing, like something happening to them before they got time to respond.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Didn't we get a full LB3 during the WoL battle? I don't remember the scions praying back then

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Did we use two LB3s back to back?

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

Small correction, Azem never said they disagree with Venat, they just didn't respond when asked to summon Hydaelyn.
That can have many more implications than them simply disagreeing, like something happening to them before they got time to respond.

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Venat Skywalker: If you aren't with me my protege then you are against me. I will fly while I watch you walk. *winkyface*

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Venat Skywalker: If you aren't with me my protege then you are against me. I will fly while I watch you walk. *winkyface*

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPS-pr0X...name=4096x4096