I guess it's time

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

They didn't remake the game for free, they took their fan's money to do it. The fans they then chose to ignore in beta and beyound in favour of chasing Wow's subscriber base. Which even after all this they have failed to do. I think alot of us would be happy with just having an acknowledgement of the issues and a nod that they will work on fixing those issues as they move forward.

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Last I recall on the beta forums the general feedback was positive and more negativity on the technical side. And the threads actually arguing that its not 1.23/FFXI, Yoshi-P gave a really long post in why the direction they went in is better in the long run than the one set in 1.0 and it made complete sense.

Also, SE took a major gamble recreating the game mostly from the ground up and did put them even more in the red till the game was a success and their arcade sales both putting the company back in the green. I doubt they funded the game with 6-months worth of subscription money from the roughly 10-20k people who actively played 1.0 during that period.

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Originally Posted by Caelum_Dragguell

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I can respect your attempt to keep the peace, but if you had not seen the history of these forums. Asking for any remote form of change leads to a discussion like this. I am clearly guilty of throwing gas into the fire, but you shouldn't be disappointed in how it turned out. You want change, you got people talking. Granted, the bad ideas outweigh the good ones in here, but that is how this forum in particular works.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Last I recall on the beta forums the general feedback was positive and more negativity on the technical side. And the threads actually arguing that its not 1.23/FFXI, Yoshi-P gave a really long post in why the direction they went in is better in the long run than the one set in 1.0 and it made complete sense.

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Would you mind linking this statement or at the very least quoting it? Because i can remember the opposite with a large amount of backlash in response to the "dumbing down" of certain systems and the nerfing of early game beta content on the forums even on non battle activities like the changes to fishing.

Many of these forum threads and official interviews promised features or changes to make up for many of these issues in the first expansion (Heavensward) and now that we're nearing the end of that expansion there are a lot of things that were on the table that we've yet to hear anything about, were dropped, or were changed entirely.

Game content like hamlet defense and chocobo escorts that we had in 1.0 (supposed to be readded as fates but weren't really) or systems like add-on support, FC primal summoning, FC alliances or heck even job additions like new summons for summoner were scrapped entirely in favor of "egi glamours" which have been delayed multiple patches in the name of balance.

So i would be curious where the better direction statement comes from, additionally Yoshida being the producer/director of the game isn't going to come out and say that the product is inferior or that the direction is worse than that of it's competition, even if that competition is produced by the same company, he may admit certain mistakes in development philosophy and how they plan to adjust it going forward but that's about the extent of it.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

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I cannot because all data from the beta forums is gone and was against the ToS to release information outside the beta to the public. Anyone who was active during the beta forums should know about it.

Can you please explain exactly which content you are referring to in regards they promised for Heavensward? I don't remember things like add-on's getting a specific date.

Yea....I will take job balancing as a priority over egi-glamour any day. They also explained why having a whole new summon pet is not a good idea unless they have something that can balance the other three. It is actually a good idea (for now) to not have something come in. Ultimately, I am willing to bet people care about the glamour more than adding all new modes to the SMN pet system.

If you can find someone who recorded all the beta forum messages and shared them to the public (which wasn't allowed to remind you), then more power to you.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I cannot because all data from the beta forums is gone and was against the ToS to release information outside the beta to the public. Anyone who was active during the beta forums should know about it.

Can you please explain exactly which content you are referring to in regards they promised for Heavensward? I don't remember things like add-on's getting a specific date.

Yea....I will take job balancing as a priority over egi-glamour any day. They also explained why having a whole new summon pet is not a good idea unless they have something that can balance the other three. It is actually a good idea (for now) to not have something come in. Ultimately, I am willing to bet people care about the glamour more than adding all new modes to the SMN pet system.

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I was around and i simply do not remember the wording of the post.

Add-on support got multiple release dates starting from like... 2.2? each time getting pushed back further until they stopped listing one altogether, I'll have to hunt for the comments. New Egi's were initially promised for Heavensward and never happened with their stance changing during the middle of 3.0 from new Egi's to Egi glamours.

Also as a former summoner main I can say that I personally would have preferred NEW summons over a glamour system as 2/3 of our current summons are almost entirely useless outside of niche situations, the job might as well not even be called summoner with how one dimensional it performs when compared to something like WoW's Warlock or XI's Summoner (though the latter had many balance issues). It's a topic that was beaten to death during the 2.xx era by many other posters until a large amount of the vocal SMN population most likely just got fed up with their complaints falling on deaf ears and either moved on or are waiting to see what happens.

I can't speak for them however.

You seem to take developer word as law which is the main folly many posters seem to do here as if this MMO exists in a vacuum (it doesn't), a large number of the complaints and comparisons to other games are made because many players have seen a quite a few of their suggestions actually put into action and working in similar circumstances and environments.

This even goes for the casual non-battle content.

Like can anyone explain why something like chocobo raising in XIV's gold saucer is straight up inferior to it's XI counterpart? I personally can't yet we have stuff like LoV which is all but dead in it's support instead.

How about fishing?

So yeah just because the developers explain why they feel a certain game system might not be interesting or may be hard to work with, doesn't mean that's actually the truth of the case.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

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Aww that's cute. Do you feel better now? :)

Edit: There was a picture that either Patch 3.2 or 3.3 was suppose to be a giant QoL patch. Been trying to find it for the longest. Wasn't surprised they changed their minds after that.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

...we have stuff like LoV which is all but dead in it's support instead.

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I think many of us are trying to forget LoV existed. Even the explaination of it sounded like it was dead before it was released since they kept mentioning it wouldn't be player controlled.

The main issue with new content is the rewards since rewards have always been questionable at best. How people can grind for a relic in this game knowing its just gonna be glamour later on, is beyond me. Honestly people wont care if you have it even if you can augment the stats. 'Ilvl' is the first thing that comes to the average 'hardcore' player verses your accuracy/crit/etc. Full skill speed drg ftw as long as you're 240 right?

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Originally Posted by Ryel

You seem to take developer word as law which is the main folly many posters seem to do here as if this MMO exists in a vacuum (it doesn't), a large number of the complaints and comparisons to other games are made because many players have seen a quite a few of their suggestions actually put into action and working in similar circumstances and environments.

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I only go by what makes sense logically in the name of balance between the three play styles. You don't know what I think about the situation, despite giving my stance on multiple occasions. I have more problems with this game than you think. I just know what is realistic, and what isn't. To begin, the only real comparisons I have seen done here is for FFXI. A game with a completely different foundation and ideals that most of it's systems and content cannot be translated into this game unless you make drastic alterations to how this game's foundation works. Also without controversy and horrific balance issues. Notice the comparisons have drawn all to that and little bit of GW2, which I have not commented on because my knowledge of that game is not enough to warrant a proper response to it. I've backed up what I said based off the history of my experience from 2003 to 2010 and how it affected players and the game during that time period. Feel free to disagree, but I am not the one wearing rose-tinted glasses here.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

Aww that's cute. Do you feel better now? :)

Edit: There was a picture that either Patch 3.2 or 3.3 was suppose to be a giant QoL patch. Been trying to find it for the longest. Wasn't surprised they changed their minds after that.

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You start making less sense the more you post. Also, ever major patch has QoL adjustments, so what are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I only go by what makes sense logically in the name of balance between the three play styles. You don't know what I think about the situation, despite giving my stance on multiple occasions. I have more problems with this game than you think. I just know what is realistic, and what isn't. To begin, the only real comparisons I have seen done here is for FFXI. A game with a completely different foundation and ideals that most of it's systems and content cannot be translated into this game unless you make drastic alterations to how this game's foundation works. Also without controversy and horrific balance issues. Notice the comparisons have drawn all to that and little bit of GW2, which I have not commented on because my knowledge of that game is not enough to warrant a proper response to it. I've backed up what I said based off the history of my experience from 2003 to 2010 and how it affected players and the game during that time period. Feel free to disagree, but I am not the one wearing rose-tinted glasses here.

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Well based on this comment alone I'll disagree because the post you quoted and snipped made a direct comparison with XIV's SMN to WoW's Warlock, which is likely the class it was heavily inspired by, other comparisons have been made to WoW's systems because that is the MMO this game has been trying it's hardest to emulate for the Japanese audience by developer admission, other comparisons are made to XI because it's the game this company has 11+ years of MMO experience with at this point.

You make not like it but if you preface every response with "But Yoshida said.." and "The Developers have said.." without actually adding more of your own views you can hardly fault others for drawing the conclusion that you barely have any at all despite your other posts and you are far from the first in this thread to do so. If you'd like to change this perception please feel free to continue to talk about some of these subjects in detail without falling back on developer comments because those will obviously be biased towards the game and the conversation as a whole will be better for it.

Additionally it's not a matter of rose tinted glasses to make purely objective comparisons when it comes to the execution of content (which is not the same as subjective enjoyment), I know it's easy to make a statement like that rather than actually try to make a counter to the points raised but there are many systems designed by the same company that are done much better in their previous MMO compared to their newer one, the chocobo raising one is a major example of this until XIV's chocobo raising system (or whatever it becomes in the future) is further developed, or fishing which is objectively a straight downgrade mechanically and for some players also subjectively from 1.0's system for no other reason than Yoshida felt we shouldn't be pressing all that many buttons for a "relaxing" activity.

I've said it earlier in this thread but nobody is expecting 1:1 conversions of XI's, WoW's, or GW2's content systems to suddenly be dropped in XIV and work in an entirely different framework, but it doesn't make much sense for some of the content we have that is obviously similar to that created in other games to feel.. lackluster in it's execution.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Well based on this comment alone I'll disagree because the post you quoted and snipped made a direct comparison with XIV's SMN to WoW's Warlock, which is likely the class it was heavily inspired by, other comparisons have been made to WoW's systems because that is the MMO this game has been trying it's hardest to emulate for the Japanese audience by developer admission, other comparisons are made to XI because it's the game this company has 11+ years of MMO experience with at this point.

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I said said in that very post "for now". Also while it is similar and inspired by WoW's Warlock, you simply cannot compare the two, because this game does not have a talent tree system (or whatever WoW uses now), which properly supports multiple type of summons. The jump from lv.60 to 70 may offer something to make it more open to summons beyond tanking, ranged, and melee. However I simply do not see it. I am legitimately curious what additional summon with the current system in place can be done beyond what I just mentioned, because honestly I would love to be wrong. I would like to see more summons personally, but on a objective standpoint I don't see the reason to.

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You make not like it but if you preface every response with "But Yoshida said.." and "The Developers have said.." without actually adding more of your own views you can hardly fault others for drawing the conclusion that you barely have any at all despite your other posts and you are far from the first in this thread to do so. If you'd like to change this perception please feel free to continue to talk about some of these subjects in detail without falling back on developer comments because those will obviously be biased towards the game and the conversation as a whole will be better for it.

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Because every single time I mentioned that is because again, people in here only drawing comparisons to FFXI, which is pretty much keeps noting to their initial response regarding it. I don't agree with them and always willing to point out their nonsense like how raid structure should be or how relics were dumbed down immensely. Since I happen to agree with them on this topic, or the general topic of balance in MMO's, does not mean I agree with everything. If I truly believed that, I wouldn't traverse the forums like I do. I would just assume everything is perfect and not bother to. Again, do not pretend you know how I feel towards this game.

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Additionally it's not a matter of rose tinted glasses to make purely objective comparisons when it comes to the execution of content (which is not the same as subjective enjoyment), I know it's easy to make a statement like that rather than actually try to make a counter to the points raised but there are many systems designed by the same company that are done much better in their previous MMO compared to their newer one, the chocobo raising one is a major example of this until XIV's chocobo raising system (or whatever it becomes in the future) is further developed, or fishing which is objectively a straight downgrade mechanically and for some players also subjectively from 1.0's system for no other reason than Yoshida felt we shouldn't be pressing all that many buttons for a "relaxing" activity.

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I have countered the points several times if you actually read everything I have posted here. It always comes back "it will work because I say it will work". No one here has legitimately countered my claims and why they would actually be better for the game beyond their own sense of nostalgia. Not once in here. If these systems are not niche at best, then tell me how it balances on a casual, midcore, and hardcore level. No one can answer it because they don't know how to.

Secondly, you assume I will automatically dismiss something because it is FFXI. Far from the truth. I have proposed Nyzul Isle/Salvage like content for quite a while and have explained how they work in the context of this game. Not saying what I said got to the developers, but similar suggestions led to Palace of the Dead, which is pretty similar to that. The suggestions you have given now I actually have nothing against, because I would like more depth to chocobo raising/racing to make it more interesting. What is ironic is that FFXI has actually a lot of good about it and I could post ideas from it easily, but what others suggest in here is exactly what was negative about the game. Again, quick to judge. Take the facts, and simply counter argue.

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I've said it earlier in this thread but nobody is expecting 1:1 conversions of XI's, WoW's, or GW2's content systems to suddenly be dropped in XIV and work in an entirely different framework, but it doesn't make much sense for some of the content we have that is obviously similar to that created in other games to feel.. lackluster in it's execution.

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You would be surprised on the mind set of some in here. I will not ever say something is a bad idea simply because it came from another title. I will however call you out if you think tearing down a technically working foundation for one that can be considered niche at best is a great idea, then be prepared to be challenged on that.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I said said in that very post "for now". Also while it is similar and inspired by WoW's Warlock, you simply cannot compare the two, because this game does not have a talent tree system (or whatever WoW uses now), which properly supports multiple type of summons. The jump from lv.60 to 70 may offer something to make it more open to summons beyond tanking, ranged, and melee. However I simply do not see it. I am legitimately curious what additional summon with the current system in place can be done beyond what I just mentioned, because honestly I would love to be wrong. I would like to see more summons personally, but on a objective standpoint I don't see the reason to.

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This is very much a case of remains to be seen, but the issues of SMN were easily avoidable from the start had it not been linked with SCH, something they were called out on the second that was revealed. Beating that dead horse again however wont amount to much at the current time and I fully admit i personally do not have a solution to the current issue.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Because every single time I mentioned that is because again, people in here only drawing comparisons to FFXI, which is pretty much keeps noting to their initial response regarding it. I don't agree with them and always willing to point out their nonsense like how raid structure should be or how relics were dumbed down immensely. Since I happen to agree with them on this topic, or the general topic of balance in MMO's, does not mean I agree with everything. If I truly believed that, I wouldn't traverse the forums like I do. I would just assume everything is perfect and not bother to. Again, do not pretend you know how I feel towards this game.

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I'm not pretending anything, I specifically said if you preface your posts a certain way they will give off a certain perception. This last post you made does a much better job of getting your personal views on the situation across than the other two you posted.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I have countered the points several times if you actually read everything I have posted here. It always comes back "it will work because I say it will work". No one here has legitimately countered my claims and why they would actually be better for the game beyond their own sense of nostalgia. Not once in here. If these systems are not niche at best, then tell me how it balances on a casual, midcore, and hardcore level. No one can answer it because they don't know how to.

Secondly, you assume I will automatically dismiss something because it is FFXI. Far from the truth. I have proposed Nyzul Isle/Salvage like content for quite a while and have explained how they work in the context of this game. Not saying what I said got to the developers, but similar suggestions led to Palace of the Dead, which is pretty similar to that. The suggestions you have given now I actually have nothing against, because I would like more depth to chocobo raising/racing to make it more interesting. What is ironic is that FFXI has actually a lot of good about it and I could post ideas from it easily, but what others suggest in here is exactly what was negative about the game. Again, quick to judge. Take the facts, and simply counter argue.

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Well to the first from my own suggestion if we're pulling directly from XI:

Limbus and ZNM like systems would fit almost seamlessly into this game with minor tweaks and could easily fit the balance of casual/midcore/hardcore almost perfectly, yet we never see any systems like that added.

What i means specifically in regards to limbus are moderate (think 30-40 minute) instances that have causal/midcore gear rewards but also drop "keys" for higher level bosses that would drop hardcore worthy loot as an alternative to raids. A system like this is something that can easily fit within the PF / DF framework and encourage not only FCs to work towards a united goal but casual players to group up with progress "keys".

ZNMs would also work perfectly as an extension of the already existing hunt system, add pop items for higher tier party claimed mobs that cost an obscene amount of allied/centurio seals (with a raised cap obviously) to encourage more participation in open world content for some "phat loot" as it were, alternatively it could use the framework of the current treasure map system and act like WoTG's Sandworm HNM that pulls you into what would be a pseudo trial for this game.

While you may not personally shoot down every XI related suggestion there are many posters on this forum that do (many of whom have never touched the game) for no other reason than they just don't want changes, heck look no further than this thread's tags if you will.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You would be surprised on the mind set of some in here. I will not ever say something is a bad idea simply because it came from another title. I will however call you out if you think tearing down a technically working foundation for one that can be considered niche at best is a great idea, then be prepared to be challenged on that.

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Feel free to call out whatever you want but it sounds better if it's coming from your own opinions as opposed to the developer ones as those cant always be trusted to be entirely objective.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

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And there we go, my point exactly. There is good content from FFXI. I completely welcome things like Limbus and ZNM, as long as they are done right in the context of this game and properly rewarding. Those are all good ideas and you don't have to change the backbone of the sytem.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

The problem I see mostly with people in here is they think some revamp is going to happen within a patch of expansion when they have no idea how development works or what resources they have to pull out to make the entire game's fundamentals change. Nor do they take in the fact despite even if they have a good idea or something that may help, it isn't simply the snap of a finger. Nor do they take into fact that what they do is controversial at best and has a potential to lose a ton a subs because the game changes so drastic. They think what is best for them, not what is good for the overall balance of the game.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I have countered the points several times if you actually read everything I have posted here. It always comes back "it will work because I say it will work". No one here has legitimately countered my claims and why they would actually be better for the game beyond their own sense of nostalgia. Not once in here. If these systems are not niche at best, then tell me how it balances on a casual, midcore, and hardcore level. No one can answer it because they don't know how to.

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I was going to write a wall of text but these pretty much sums up a huge portion of this thread. Couldn't agree more.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

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I only stop making sense to you cuz you shoot down anything that is XI related. XI may have had many issues, but it had some great items that would translate well in this game. Hell, it may even bring life back into combat.

Why do people wanna bring things from FF XI instead of just playing FF XI?

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

I only stop making sense to you cuz you shoot down anything that is XI related. XI may have had many issues, but it had some great items that would translate well in this game. Hell, it may even bring life back into combat.

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Uh. She even suggested some content from FFXI. Looking into something in a deeper way letting aside your nostalgia has nothing to do with "shooting down" something. This should be a mature discussion. If you think that she isn't right, then prove your point instead of being salty.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Why do people wanna bring things from FF XI instead of just playing FF XI?

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You could say the exact same thing about the game taking heavy inspiration from WoW...

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Why do people wanna bring things from FF XI instead of just playing FF XI?

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Because XI exists no more, which you would know if you knew what you were talking about. It become XIV-2 some time ago, instead of going visa versa (itemlevels, easy equipment, instant level up and stuff).

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I was going to write a wall of text but these pretty much sums up a huge portion of this thread. Couldn't agree more.

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As it has been said, simple "We understand those problems, we understand that we are making horrible design decisions and promise to fix all those issues by 4.0 or 5.0 or maybe 6.0, somehow" by developers would be enough to calm us down. The real problem is that developrs seem to be pleased with current state of game and don't want to change anything.

No need to attack me for asking a question.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

No need to attack me for asking a question.

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Sorry. Usually this question ask those, who actually know the answer and want just to mock Final Fantasy and fans.

No, I like both games. Last played FF XI around time Seekers came out.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Why do people wanna bring things from FF XI instead of just playing FF XI?

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Because it's a final fantasy mmo? a lot of people were thinking ff14 would be similar to ff11 but with better combat and better graphics. Since ff11 was developed for ps2 and ff14 was being developed for ps3 and pc. What we got was a disaster, which was alleviated by copying WoW to some degree. But now they copying all the hand-holding crap that a lot of people don't want.

What you are suggesting would be similar to making tekken 7 play like street fighter, then telling all the pissed off fans to go play tekken 5. Pretty rediculous if you ask me.

EDIT: I think for my opinion. This game will prob need more stuff at max level than just 1 relevant raid and roulletttes if it wants to keep people playing. If they can't come up with something that is fun, then at least throw in stuff from ff11? We will see how palace of the dead goes, but if it's only 3 hours long i fear people might grow bored of it fairly quickly.

I didn't suggest anything.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

Uh. She even suggested some content from FFXI. Looking into something in a deeper way letting aside your nostalgia has nothing to do with "shooting down" something. This should be a mature discussion. If you think that she isn't right, then prove your point instead of being salty.

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This has nothing to do with Nostalgia. XIV has a broken formula that needs fixing in a bad way. In XI, things were made to last. XIV, things are made to last a quarter of a year, if that. I don't want another Diadem, I want another Sky, Sea, HNM or..... Horizontal Progression.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

This has nothing to do with Nostalgia.

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Not even an eency weency bit? ;)

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

This has nothing to do with Nostalgia. XIV has a broken formula that needs fixing in a bad way. In XI, things were made to last. XIV, things are made to last a quarter of a year, if that. I don't want another Diadem, I want another Sky, Sea, HNM or..... Horizontal Progression.

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Well, FFXI is a milestone and you won't find anything similar in ARR, mainly cause the team behind it. The gap is really too huge and Tanaka is too far away now, the more time goes by, the less the game shines, unless radical changes with the new expansion (4.0) those people who love the whole saga, jRPG and the XI are hoping for. Not by chance the main cities are still the best areas in game (those Akihiko Yoshida and FFXIV 1.0's visual designers made, they're basically the same still worse than before cause we miss the original bgm[s], with Soken not doing a brutal job though), with Mor Dhona and Coerthas completely destroyed by ARR's team. Not by chance Heavensward been a huge fail when it comes to creativity, ideas and target while losing all the depth and the care the main areas had.


A shame since FFXIV had has an infinite potential due the impressive work Tanaka's team did years ago (races design pre-AuRas, lore and gameplay). Not even blaming Yoshi-P, pretty sure he's aware but too scared to make the right choices so far (hope it's gonna change now that the population is really poor). Time to trade vanity and silly/useless stuff for a true fantasy made for the fans and the hardcore community? We'll see, hopes up!

Pretty silly we don't have any real feedback on any of this yet.
All we get is this:

"We're looking into it"
"Please look forward to it"

Reality its more like this:

"We're not gonna do anything about it"
"Please wait 10 years for it to even come out"

So after Yoshi P gets a RMT tell ingame for the first time in like 3 years. Now its time for him to do something about it?
That's if they actually follow through and actually fix it like they said they would.

I don't understand why they even bother to go out to places like gamescom just to show off a 3-6 week old patch update. Nobody cares unless its a new game or its a preview of the upcoming expansion. Just saying it be better spent if they were all working at there office. No point getting new players that have no idea how to play the game telling them to beat Sephirot hm or extreme for T shirts. The people that already know how to do the fight already play the game or aren't fans of the series or MMOs. No point traveling to places around a japan to sell tickets to a live letter. All the questions they get are pre chosen and if its a serious question they just discard it with just saying "We'll look into it", then any actual feedback on why they aren't going to do it. (Because people would quit the game.) No point having live letters and only having them talk in japan only. Just release a 10min video of yoshi P talking with subtitles. (These live letters are planned way ahead anyway to sell tickets, just make a video.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omRZ7lGE1SA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaNKXtLKFgw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBcMnfE2oHY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6vrJFOmCFA

Is there really a reason to have 3 fanfests? Just show everything in one fanfest. Maybe you guys would finish the expansion sooner and wouldn't need to take a 3 month break or delay the expansion a extra month.
You guys spend way too much time traveling around promoting the game the wrong way. Just make a good game and players will come and stay around. Word of mouth spreads fast.

Yoshi P came to mexico's gaming whatever college and behind him said something like, "Don't forget business side of gaming". Hopefully they aren't just thinking about the bottom line & short term gains.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Because it's a final fantasy mmo? a lot of people were thinking ff14 would be similar to ff11 but with better combat and better graphics. Since ff11 was developed for ps2 and ff14 was being developed for ps3 and pc. What we got was a disaster, which was alleviated by copying WoW to some degree. But now they copying all the hand-holding crap that a lot of people don't want.

What you are suggesting would be similar to making tekken 7 play like street fighter, then telling all the pissed off fans to go play tekken 5. Pretty rediculous if you ask me.

EDIT: I think for my opinion. This game will prob need more stuff at max level than just 1 relevant raid and roulletttes if it wants to keep people playing. If they can't come up with something that is fun, then at least throw in stuff from ff11? We will see how palace of the dead goes, but if it's only 3 hours long i fear people might grow bored of it fairly quickly.

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This. Well put.

To Velhart and others who would follow the Devs straight off a cliff if they told you to jump:

I asked this question many pages back. Who's going to buy this game 1,2, or 5 years from now (including original arr plus all of the expansions), when 99% of battle content and gear is irrelevant? Mmos need subscriptions and new players as well.

The game needs a shift in a better direction and people use ffxi as a reference because it had great content and gear progression. Now I play this game, there's a lot to like. Better content like ffxi has, would increase longevity and create a better community. The current formula used here reminds me a lot like dcuo a free to play game with a cash shop. The FF franchise doesn't need it, nor do fans want it

FF14 was my first MMO somewhere during FF14 I played Guild Wars 2 and DC Universe Online along with other smaller ones. Never played FF11, but compared to GW2 they have fun fates with hundreds of people showing up. Loot drops from GW2 events fills up your inventory quick, recently I got a Ascended weapon (pink rarity) drop from a world boss. There were hundreds of people trying to kill a zombie dragon bigger than T13 Bahamut. The fight wasn't like our Boss fates or S ranks were everyone spams attack. we had objectives to complete. some people had to main the turrets and some attacked the boss and then we had to defend the cannons from giant snake monsters so that the cannons could shoot down the dragon when it took off. it was a blast. Had so much fun.

FF14 boss fate... all I got was a minon wooo, hooo :(


Chest in guild wars 2 are found all over the world and anything you do in that game you get loot/chest. Everyone gets their own random loot no need/greed or passing. loot drops very from gear/skins, crafting material, and receipts. Even legendary weapons from what i heard/seen on youtube can drop from a random add/chest.

was going to type more but got to go word event about to start in GW2 so... bye

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Originally Posted by Beetle

Pretty silly we don't have any real feedback on any of this yet.
All we get is this:

"We're looking into it"
"Please look forward to it"

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Funny how the majority of Questions that the Devs even answer are about contest, QoL, glamour and housing these days.... :/

Be nice if they tackled more questions like these...

Nobody wants a FFXI-2. This has been discussed so many times. Some of the people coming with thoese accusations assume by default the FFXI vets playing FFXIV would enjoy waiting 6h for something (not like que times are so much better now).

People want actual elements from FFXI. The devs are not doing anyone a favour by just adding monsters from FFXI and now they think they have done the customers who kept this game alive during 1.0 a favour.

As I've said before any many others. This game has copy pasted WoW in almost everything right now and these are the results. The casuals are getting annoyed and burned out. You know that market most of this forum assume SE is only catering to because everything else is the 10%. Seems like its 90% who want change honestly and the current 10% are beeing spoiled.

Some of things to take into considerations because they went the we want to appeal to the casual market and have the same agespan as WoW but the majority of FFXIV gamers are adults in their 23+.

1. Gears are still unpersonal with the stats etc.

2. You barely belong in Eorzea cause you spend more time in DF than the actual world. The character just feels like some sort of empty shell.

3. It would not hurt to have actual caverns/dungeons on the world map who are silly timed instances
all the time but you can get random people coming along to assist you.

4. Having the whole game on a very easy difficulty except extreme primals and savage does not seem to be OK in anyones book.

5. Weekly cap has destroyed content and has also turned this game into a ridicilous hamsterwheel where gears get outdated so quick that even if people wanted to gear up more than one main job it would still take over 10 weeks per job meaning if you played more than one main job you are screwed because by the time your gears are up to date for all classes you prefer to play they are useless again. Because the new amazing jibba jabba currency is introduced with new amazing copy pasted gears where everyone will just go crit det and accuracy with.

Thoese are just a few of the things that have been discussed in this thread. Every positive idea about horizontal progression seem to be shot down by people who honestly beleive there is nothing wrong with this and everything we are beeing fed is tasty and amazing.

Someone wrote that its like playing Tekken 7 with a Street Fighter gameplay and then you are going to tell all Tekken 7 original customers to go back and play previous Tekken games because they wanted a Tekken Game that person was spot on.

This game is not WoW and I'm getting really tired of people from WoW beeing here trying to enforce and dictate their way of gaming and their silly Toons on the rest of us because they think they know MMORPG due to this game continously reminds them of WoW.

Generation gap or not 4 years ago the players who kept this game alive and where present wanted Horizontal progression why didnt Yoshi and SE listen to these customers?

I would rather play with 1m loyal FF SE customers who want this game to stay alive for years than play with 6m people in this unpersonal current state because people will come and go because they are MMORPG jumpers who are just here because this is currently trending.

My personal opinions:

Just because people pay for a subscription they should not be allowed to everything others worked so hard for because this game has made things get outdated so quick.

Stop shaping the game after the players whining and instead just keep presenting content that will make the players adapt to FFXIV.

I have not done alot of Savage content on my main on Ragnarok but as I said before I'm ok with not getting these ridicilous handouts because we want to keep players happy.

The last 2 patches I've honestly not even cared because I knew i could catch up wth everyone else by devoting half the effort they did and I would get the same thing. Guess what? It actually worked.
How fair is that to everyone else who dedicates their time to this more than others by learning strategies or dungeon dungeons and weekly caps so often by almost giving everything for free to the next person?
Why must they be punished for this? I do say punished because its truly not fair for me to have the same stuff everyone else had to do multiple dungeons to catch up on a ilvl, relic etc
When someone could just craft me it and tada I'm there with everyone else with half the effort (this was just an example there is most likely other scenarios like this, example with increased bird mount drop etc)

Don't make me remind you guys of the HW relic disaster of how you are going to explain to people that had to do certain dungeons that would take 18-20 minutes over 30 times for a possible drop in ARR by then just making that worth 18 crystals that others could get within hours. Instead of making the weapon that people worked so hard on to grow with the character and become a truly personal item it got shut down because the "new chapter" got released wich is more a WoW thing than anything FFXI related (we can be honest here. Atleast all FFXI relics got the chance to grow stronger and was rewarding even until this day)

It would also be nice to actually get the devs and moderators of this forums attention for once and get an actual reply about these matters instead of the only time things are interesting is when someone is asking when product ex is coming as an irl merchandise because they want to be kawaii and brag about their plush doll etc on instagram or FB FFXIV groups to feed some sort of ego desire for attention.

Another food for thought: The reason why Party Finders are so empty in big heavy populated servers is because due to everything else in this game beeing so easy its easy to complete everything so fast and run out of things to do. Its not the players who are leaving etc. Everyone is still here its just nothing to do because the games formula is so predictable. Save the oh level something in order to have something to do (This arguement is so fail its not having something to do its to try and satisfy your boredom because the game fails to keep your main job interesting). Take a break comments? Most people who took breaks never came back it only shows how interesting this game truly is.

Do you guys honestly think Palace of The Dead will have such an amazing lifespan? Chances are it will die out just as diadem did because of how this game is going. Remember that diadem was supposed to be something we would do alot now its a ghost area.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

FF14 was my first MMO somewhere during FF14 I played Guild Wars 2 and DC Universe Online along with other smaller ones. Never played FF11, but compared to GW2 they have fun fates with hundreds of people showing up. Loot drops from GW2 events fills up your inventory quick, recently I got a Ascended weapon (pink rarity) drop from a world boss. There were hundreds of people trying to kill a zombie dragon bigger than T13 Bahamut. The fight wasn't like our Boss fates or S ranks were everyone spams attack. we had objectives to complete. some people had to main the turrets and some attacked the boss and then we had to defend the cannons from giant snake monsters so that the cannons could shoot down the dragon when it took off. it was a blast. Had so much fun.

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Yeah I had done a boss event where a bum was gonna summon something and we had to take down a bunch of adds to knock off his invincibility buff and then fight the wizard and you had ice tornadoes and crap everywhere like you were fighting a powerful foe and after you beat him and you see the thing he failed to summon crumple you got a big loot chest out on the overworld with like 6-8 rng based drops based on your current level. And every player that was there got all 6-8 drops. and it didn't matter if you were lvl 20 or lvl 80. Everyone got something that was worth it to them. And no rolls needed. And a ton of XP as well. Felt like a damn RPG boss encounter.

Meanwhile in XIV...you kill thing in static unchanging background...have some hoo hah tomestone/seal currency(hunts) and maybe get 50 gil and maybe like 400 XP for the boss and like then a small percentage of your level in exp(some silly fate) and if you didn't get there....? Rip you. You get nothing. Uh yay?

And that's just from an essential FATE on the overworld.

Its really hard toget away with how the current game has been designed. Duty Finder & Tomes. Tomes are needed toget gear for helping players in duty finder. Duty finder is used to find a party.

If there isn't a duty finder/roullete system then its harder for these groups to find members. Probably end up going back to shouting/throwing PF for dungeons.

I think the best way to fix this issue is to add a completely different kind of currency into the game. Something like buying current patch dungeon gear with. (Like 215, kinda stuff) Also giving extra features for using the points. Like, melds, Sanction like buff, bcnm orbs. They could throw the ironworks set on there also. Exp battle scrolls. Probably remove how you would gain tomes by repeating fights or dungeons, like the only way to obtain the new points is to use roulletes and randomly que for different kinds of content. The new currency wouldn't be used to obtain best in slot. More like, help make money, catch up, make money with desynths with buying armor, buying self buffs like FC buffs.

Lol gotta love this thread, its like chicken or egg story

Hey look I'd love if they made things horizontal but the reason gear is outdated so fast is bc patches come fast, which is something I do like, it would require a LOT of reworking to change gearing so drastically & add horizontal-ness, & it's a risk that the devs don't wanna take.

Despite all the complaints, this is the vocal minority. 80% of the playerbase don't even use the forums. So there is an extremely high chance devs will ignore anything unless it's within the confines of something minor they could change that wouldn't cause a massive revolution in the game, something they know people will appreciate as it would have no negative effects & won't cause subs to drop. Horizontal gearing might do this if they could even pull it off.

Wouldn't adding this horizontal stuff pretty much require changes from the ground up on the entire stat system? It might be an insanely large amount of work that could take a year of balancing without any other patch work distracting them. They said it took a year to balance the HW jobs & even then 2/3 of them STILL needed massive changes on release & up to 3.2.


To summarize, you guys might be asking for TOO MUCH.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

To summarize, you guys might be asking for TOO MUCH.

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We are not asking for too much. The patches may be fast but they are predictable and bland. they are fast because it is not going anywhere new, and relies upon rehashed mechanics and dungeon layouts.

People are tired of the consequences of this. having a grind of THE SAME runs to do over and over for rewards that are not very special and become obsolete with the next patch. yeah many people do not post on the forums, but that doesn't mean things are alright. From the dwindling fc rosters to the pfs with just a smattering of clearsellers, the effects of lost interest in the endgame, for both casuals and hardcores, is becoming more and more apparent.

An interesting thought:

The catch up patches are an alternative to a level up potion for 60 content. They do it so everyone can gear up & no one feels left out or overwhelmed when they hit 60/come back to the game.

Personally I'd rather work my way up from 150 to 250 bc I find it fun, but it seems people(from my experience & in general) would rather be handed their stuff so they can get to the meat of the end game only to realize there isn't much meat there..they expected a whole cow & got a rat leg.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Wouldn't adding this horizontal stuff pretty much require changes from the ground up on the entire stat system? It might be an insanely large amount of work that could take a year of balancing without any other patch work distracting them.

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I would disagree, they have the framework in place to do some horizontal progression pretty easily and with almost no extra work on their part.

Patch 4.0:
Release Tome of New Hotness
Tomes of New Hotness are capped.
Release Rowenas Token of New Hotness (requires 50 tomes)
Release Tome gear with certain secondary stats (crit/det for example)
Make all Tome gear bought with Rowenas Tokens of New Hotness.

Patch 4.1
Tomes of New Hotness remain capped
Release new Tome of New Hotness gear with the same item level but with a different appearance and different secondary stats (Acc/SkS)

Patch 4.2
Tomes of New Hotness remain capped
Release new Tome of New Hotness gear with the same item level but with a different appearance and different secondary stats (Crit/Acc)

Patch 4.3
Tomes of New Hotness Uncapped
Release Tomes of Uberness for higher item level gear
Release Rowenas Token of Uberness
etc...

With no increased ilevel you aren't penalized for waiting to get the stats you want, you get more options, ilevel bloat is reduced and overall pacing is slowed down. Because ilevel doesn't increase so rapidly you won't need to rush and get burned out and you can enjoy your gear longer.

The overall framework is the same. They're still doing the same number of gear appearance changes, the same number of different stat types, etc. All they wouldn't be doing is increasing the numbers. You can still have new dungeons, they just wouldn't have a higher ilevel; overall diffiulty would stay the same so there's not really a change there either.

Overall this would have more benefits than drawbacks.

I don't undestand what's the problem with the vertical progression. If they put horizontal progression, why then we should keep playing, if after few patch, the game still stuck on the same item level? What's the point if my stats won't increase? For me, I'm happy with the massive item level difference beetwen patches, it gives pogression, while keep the same item level won't feel at all my character progress. Probably I won't be happy if I still have the 16000 HP from law gear level, compared to the 27000 from full 240.

Maybe you can add more options. E.G, there are 2 options for 230 gear (Lore and Weepng City), 2 ways for 240 (lore upgrade and Laexander SAvage). YOu can add more ways to get gear. three types of 230 for example, and 3 type of 240 gear.

But not stuck for years on the same item level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Wouldn't adding this horizontal stuff pretty much require changes from the ground up on the entire stat system?

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Generally no - we do have "horizontal progression" already after all. Gathering gear for your Paladin when you normally play Ninja is not fundamentally different from gathering a set to improve a specific ability or gear for a specific resistance on your Ninja. The only difference is that your gameplay actually changes in the prior case, whereas it remains nearly or the exact same in the latter.

The pacing of patches however is tuned to accommodate people who only play one job. Ever noticed that pattern? It takes roughly 3 months to gear out one job in full tomestone equip and roughly every 3 months new upgrade options become available (via tomestones or weekly locked upgrade items). And why is that? Because not everyone participates in the "horizontal progression" we have, as it is considered optional (You do not need to enhance your alt-job gear/levels to participate in content). Plus, some people have a preference for keeping their gameplay the same, aka stale.

And when you add relevant "horizontal progression" on the single-job level to the point that single job players don't get bored, you kill off multi-jobs entirely. And all the while, you also need to keep in mind that you cannot make gear so tedious to obtain that casuals cannot make noteworthy progress in the little time they have or you'll lose that demographic.

I can't say I envy the devs here :3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

An interesting thought:

The catch up patches are an alternative to a level up potion for 60 content. They do it so everyone can gear up & no one feels left out or overwhelmed when they hit 60/come back to the game.

Personally I'd rather work my way up from 150 to 250 bc I find it fun, but it seems people(from my experience & in general) would rather be handed their stuff so they can get to the meat of the end game only to realize there isn't much meat there..they expected a whole cow & got a rat leg.

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I agree with catchup, I disagree with the current pace of catchup. Its ridiculous they present content for 3 months, then allow catchup immediately after. I think Catchup should only be possible after the whole 6 months of raid tier is over at the EARLIEST, otherwise, whats the point of bothering with difficult content?