Yes let's read their brains !Quote:
Originally Posted by jomoru
*Focus on reading Koji and Oda's brains*
Okay I'm in ! Let's search for those naming conventions now.... Oh what's this ? 3.0 revelations ?
Oh dear, oh no this can't be hapenning, no no nooooooooooo!!!! *collapse*
Au Ra physiology and other lore.
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06-03-2015, 04:19 AMlololink
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06-03-2015, 06:20 AMKaiser-AceI got ya Lololink. <Swift Cast -> Resurrection>Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
If what's in their heads is that bad I neither want to know nor attempt this again. So I guess we're back to inference and wild speculation. -
06-03-2015, 06:35 AMlilirulu
I like to think Yoshi-P's inspiration for the Au Ra was Doranekodan(slightly NSFW). Well, that or Pangolin because Pangolin are awesome and every game should have a Pangolin race.
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06-03-2015, 12:02 PMSamcaesarSteppes often have very short sparse vegetation, most that's there is underground or only gets few inches past it unless if it's some sort of bush, hardly enough foliage to cover themselves up. I primarily saw it in a hunting sense, but I suppose it could be in other ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace
I've mentioned that large builds function just fine in Steppe topography, as a side note the largest man in the world is a Mongolian so there's something going on with them! That's the thing, the girls were literally designed to look like something you'd want to protect, so I doubt they had "Lean and lethal" in mind whenever making them or their lore. They're incredibly frail looking, and unless if the muscular system of the Auri vastly differs between men and women (Which doesn't generally happen for a lot of reasons!) the Auri girls probably don't do anything. Likewise, if men were just stuck home, (Which is a little silly, they're nomadic people, homes are very temporary and they can easily hunt on the go) then that's not an efficient allocation of tribe members. It'd just be better to have the group generally together so accidents that separate the men and women of a tribe entirely don't occur.
Carnivorous plants /do exist/ and sentient rock creatures have a basis in a lot of mythology. All the dev team does is take one or two liberties with the myth or creature. Magic works /with/ logic though. Gravity will pull things to the earth (Dalamud) unless if a significant amount of force keeps things away (Aether). It's all about building up from reality and having consistent rules. Sentient rock creatures don't just exist for no reason, they exist because Aether is the life force within sentient creatures and some mass of rocks just happened to get a continuous surge of it, giving it a soul as it would a newborn.
Crossbreeding has been confirmed though with mixed races children as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isklexi
If we don't selective breed for traits consciously (Which I disagree with, racist people tend to support eugenics quite consciously for example), then neither would the Au Ra, the key word is consciously though. The Au Ra
Beast race probably won't happen, especially not one with next to zero dimorphism (Much to my sadness). We know SE won't do anything close to that for a lot of reasons.
Maybe! It's a weird decision not gonna lie, but I hope we get more info on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Hmph, well I can give you that! I definitely misspoke. However eugenics is something very much so encompassing in a lot of societies, technically that blip of "Mixed races are possible but usually frowned upon due to societal conventions" is eugenics, which isn't even too foreign of a concept within our own species.
You bring up that it's not "Gene X produced Y in the organism" (or at least it's more complex than that), and while I agree with you there, why would genes that cause such as muscular density or height in the male or females work like that (Ie "The gene X produces the height in the women.").
Ah, I see what you mean now. It does mention that their tribes are "close-knit" as well which generally means "You're not marrying outside the tribe" which is technically eugenics as well, especially if their reasoning is "Our tribe is strong! We must remain pure and not allow those weaker tribes to pollute our children".
1. Of course not, but chances are they would, even the more abstract cultures in FFXIV are based on real life creatures, lion prides with the Sun Seekers for example. It's kind of hard to construct a world in a vacuum, while it would be amazing, I kind of doubt that they made an entire culture bereft of real life influences.
We know how genetics work however, that's why it can't be a cop out. "Aether/Magic/Allagan tech" follow rules that the dev team establishes (As they create this world), if it's stated in canon "Aether can not cause floating rocks" then we see floating rocks in game, "Aether" can't be the answer, this is not the case however.
I dunno, I doubt that Ilberd or Lolorito want Rauhbahn dead, so chances are once he was subdued, the best healing money could buy went into keeping him alive. And looking at the cinematic cutscene in Heavenswards opening, which is likely the most accurate cutscene, not much blood was actually split, people have lost their entire arms before in much less clean ways and lived, so I don't see why Rauhbahn wouldn't.
Of course, chisels and small hammers also work with stone pretty effectively too. It's not necessarily the most effective method, but if you kept trying to you'd eventually wear away the rock. Like I said, it might be more of just the case of disrupting something Aetheric field via continual damage causing the host object to dissipate if there is one, Kinda like how if you
2. It's reasonable enough! I can only hope one day our questions will be answered by the lore devs and those answers make good sense.
3. Well, apparently it all depends on chromosomes in terms of fertility, as long as the "races of man" have the same amount of chromosomes, then the hybrid will be fertile. It brings up the question on what would get passed on genetically, though? If genetic specific eye color is transmittable, only Allagan royality and their descendents have Allagan royality eyes after all, then what else would transfer? I mean, mixed races does have certain connotation that they're not just like the mom or something, even with pokemon they still get traits from dad in the form of egg moves!
5. It's possible, looking at the 2014 census it makes a good bit! Aaand there's nothing much else to say on that though! We really don't know why they made the Auri men so tall outside of possible lore reasons, I just think that's bunk and doesn't make much sense.
How wouldn't making a "Tough woman" Xaela model make some people happy and some people unhappy? Sure it's more work for the devs to do, but that's like saying "They shouldn't add a healer job next time because that's more work for the devs to do."
They don't have to. If they wanted to own up to their mistakes they ought to. If they just didn't use the same model for both clans to begin with they wouldn't have to worry about that though.
It'll help more than just leaving the "tough female" models at two choices that are relatively bland besides weird skin tones (For Roes) and 3/4 meanfase options, unlike Miqo'te or Au Ra which have a few things extra (Things such as the tails or horns/ears). You don't fix a problem by letting it stagnant!
I won't fear them, just demand their extinction. Now.. If they looked like Aplhinaud but a little bit older.. The ladies can stay too.
Even with that, you can't deny that Hydaelyn and Earth share many similarities. It's not like SE thought of an entirely brand new system of passing genes along through parent to child, so I'm sure things like survival of the fittest, genes and how those work, and choosing a mate based on certain qualities exist in Hydaelyn as they do here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace
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06-03-2015, 12:29 PMKaiser-Ace
So what is a steep? In as brief of detail as possible. (That wikipedia article really explained nothing)
As for Hydaelyn to Earth, it's similar enough that it's differences are minor and in many ways negligible. But Aether just slightly changes the rules to a unique way. (In the presence of Corrupted crystals the rules change slightly as well as when exposed to high Aether areas/substances so it's not the exact same as earth's natural energy)
As for the protection thing, that could entirely be to attract males. The small fragile appearing body gives that anime "Pay attention to me Senpai!!" troup while not entirely making it to where they are incapable of combat. I imagine that writing that cute fragile appearance off as a threat may be the last mistake one would ever make.
The Xaela appear to look cutesy but strike me as the type to look at their captors all teary eyed and then laugh sadisticly after they stick a knife in their captor's spleen when his back is turned. -
06-03-2015, 12:38 PMjomoruGrassy plains that stretch over vast geographic distances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace
Quote:
As for Hydaelyn to Earth, it's similar enough that it's differences are minor and in many ways negligible. But Aether just slightly changes the rules to a unique way. (In the presence of Corrupted crystals the rules change slightly as well as when exposed to high Aether areas/substances so it's not the exact same as earth's natural energy)
As for the protection thing, that could entirely be to attract males. The small fragile appearing body gives that anime "Pay attention to me Senpai!!" troup while not entirely making it to where they are incapable of combat. I imagine that writing that cute fragile appearance off as a threat may be the last mistake one would ever make.
The Xaela appear to look cutesy but strike me as the type to look at their captors all teary eyed and then laugh sadisticly after they stick a knife in their captor's spleen when his back is turned.
I will point out again the Males are the wrong size for steppe people. Monoglians, Huns, Apache etc were generally smaller than more settled groups nearby(Though they may have had higher muscle mass). Female Xaela don't need explaining based on magic or unique enviromental conditions. Males do. -
06-03-2015, 12:48 PMKaiser-AceSo not quite as lush as a savanna but a little more lush than a prairie?Quote:
Originally Posted by jomoru
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06-03-2015, 01:03 PMjomorushort grass prairies are a type of steppe. Grassy region without trees away from rivers that's not tropical or arctic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace
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06-03-2015, 01:05 PMSamcaesarGenerally prairies are Steppes but with more frequent trees, apparently. The western part of the Great Plains for example is called the "Prairie steppe" so essentially they're interchangeable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace
You're not wrong! Aether does change the rules in a very unique way, as does magic. Often however, magic emulates the effects of advance technology. Think of Magitek for example, it's stuff that emulates magic through the usage of crystallized aether. Replace aether with such things as like oil and now we through the use of technology can turn something liquid into fire or wind turbines would be turning wind aspect aether into lightening aspect aether.
Unless if Auri women have a sudden hulk switch I doubt that sort of thing happens :P Plus, if all Xaela women used that technique, well I kinda would guess it wouldn't be so effective against their main enemies, other Xaela. Tricks like that only work on those who don't expect it! -
06-03-2015, 01:21 PMKaiser-AceTrue that, but imagine what happened to the first guy to fall for that trick. He probably didn't need plans later. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Samcaesar
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06-03-2015, 01:30 PMSamcaesarThinking with one head as opposed to the other, eh? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace
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06-03-2015, 01:46 PMjomoruThey don't need to be. Females are better built for mounted nomads than males. Females would be able to ride longer and faster than any male out there with the vast differences in size.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samcaesar
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06-03-2015, 02:02 PMSamcaesarNot a bad suggestion, but then why would there not be a genetic push for the men to become smaller (IE women seeking out men who are smaller because it's desirable, or else men can't also ride said animal as well) so that they could also do something as desirable as riding some kind of animal just as long and just as fast as the women? If it's the more effective tactic in society (War or just transport), then it'll be seen as more desirable.Quote:
Originally Posted by jomoru
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06-03-2015, 02:06 PMjomoruWho knows why? I'm just pointing out its not the Females who are the odd ones out here. Its the Freakishly oversized males. A smaller rider means more effort can be put on speed and endurance on the mount. That's the simple end. There's a point where diminish returns happens. The larger animal have to put more effort into their own movement along with carrying thus they might end up having superiror strength but lacking on endurance and speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samcaesar
So now the question becomes why? Are Au'ra males able to run as fast as a horse? that seems profoundly unlikely. So lets look at the semi nomadic lifestyles of the steppes peoples. In the Americas they tended to be Hunters, on the Eurasian Steppes they mixed hunting with keeping herds of various animals(cows, sheep, goats etc). Both groups of people had regular camps where they would set up during the year rather than constantly being on the move.
Now that being the case if they have semiregular or full time villages the larger males can use their size for defense. So presumably the males would be protectors/holders of claimed land while the females would be more or less the offensive end of things. This is just a broad comparison.
But if Doma is Japan and Othard is vaguely Asia perhaps we can take this another step? If we compare them more directly to the Mongols and their armies, there were weaponsmiths, infantry and seige crafters among them. This would again give a some advantage to males defending their things that move slowly or cannot be moved vs the mobility of the females.
So with that out of the way and as clearly sedentary life is a push towards larger body forms, and the Au'ra have larger body forms as an option, why aren't Raen the size of Highlanders? -
06-03-2015, 02:21 PMCiliaWhile mixed race relationships (marriages) aren't all that common and are still looked at askance by most people, they do exist. Regardless, it's not a matter of eugenics (or racial purity, if you want to go there) that drives people to refrain from them these days, but the social order that is instilled in people when they're young. People also tend to form groups that are similar to theyselves (based on any number of things, race included), so there's that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samcaesar
In regards to Xaela tribal organization, if we're going to go on real-world examples, look at the American Indians. While they were generally pretty insular, they would take women and children from other tribes during war and "adopt" them into the tribe. It's a pretty brutal way to get more people in the tribe to be sure, but it helps to prevent genetic degradation through inbreeding... which sticking solely to one's own tribe would inevitably result in, leading to the death of the tribe.
Alternatively, a Xaela might be exiled from his or her tribe and go on to form a new tribe of similar outcasts, not unlike how wolves make new packs. This also supports genetic diversity and health.
Either way, eugenics are not present.
OK... it's really quite simple to explain the sexual dimorphism. For the sake of argument, let's say Au Ra have the same sex chromosomes as humans (XX / XY). If their sex chromosomes produce a female (XX), there is an inhibitor sequence on the X chromosomes that limits their growth when they hit puberty so they don't end up as tall or muscular as the males; this sequence only expresses if the Au Ra has two X chromosomes, so only the females are small. By extension, the males do not have this smaller stature, either because their Y chromosome changes their growth or the limiter is not expressed without two X chromosomes.
Bam! Sexual dimorphism. (Consequently this is what I meant when I said "genetics can be used to explain anything.") Why these are expressed among the Au Ra I do not know, but there you have it.
1. I'm not saying there is no real-world inspiration for the Xaela, but until I know what it is I can't make judgment calls on what their society is like. (For the record I do think they're similar to the Mongolians, since they sound an awful lot like the Mardu Horde from the most recent Magic expansion who were based on... you guessed it, the Mongolians.)
See above. Also, the "rules of magic" can be changed to suit the authors' needs, which is why it's the ultimate cop-out.
While I can see why Lolorito might want Raubahn alive, the reality is he had his arm cut off and was engaging in vigorous physical activity. He already lost a lot of blood with that arm (even if the cutscene / FMV doesn't show it, if you want to apply real-world logic it happened), and with that large open wound and accelerated heart rate he'd be losing more every second he went medically unattended to. The body can only sustain itself on endorphins and adrenaline for so long; after a few minutes, at best, he would collapse simply from the lack of oxygen. At best; this does not include engaging Ilberd in heated combat. There's a reason they use tourniquets to cut off blood flow before amputating limbs.
Bladed and pointed weapons (most nonmagical weapons available to PCs) are designed to puncture or rend flesh, not break rock. While using such a thing on a rock monster might wear it down eventually, you're more likely to end up ruining the weapon before you accomplish this. A properly trained MNK has the best chance of really winning against rock monsters due to their fists bludgeoning things, followed in a very distant second by WAR thanks to their weapons relying more on force than finesse. Ergo, fighting rock monsters with daggers (or most available weapons) does not make sense. (Of course, MNKs could crack said rock monster and the people with bladed weapons could exploit those cracks... but we don't always have a MNK and that's a very restrictive way to fight.)
3. I do not pretend to know what genetic hybrids among the "races of man" would be like, and there is no way at all to know. Genetic hybridization can produce expressions not seen in either parent (ligers, bred for their skills in magic, are more massive than either of their parents, f'ex), so it's not wise to dwell on that question.
5. See above about sexual dimorphism.
Yes, making Xaela women more robust would make some people happy and some people not. I don't know why they chose to make them just as waifish as the Raen women, but I'm not going to say it's stupid until I get an explicit answer for that specific question. The most likely answer is they didn't have the time or didn't want to put the time into making two different models, and while I don't think that's the best reason, it's not my place to judge that as stupid (or "bunk"). In terms of lore, see above point about sexual dimorphism.
Only time will tell if making the Auri women (and men, y'know!) the way they are was a mistake. If they deem it was and redo the models, and consider giving everyone a free Fantasia their way of accepting responsibility for it, OK. Until then, stop trying to say it was a mistake; that's just your opinion.
Using the same model for both clans is, incidentally, the norm; the Hyur are the exception. I do not expect any new race to have different models depending on their clan, and I do not think anyone else should either.
Again, personal gripes aside, there is no way to know if introducing a new "tough" female model would interest people. Leaving it as does not help, but adding one might not help either... it's a risky proposition, and not doing so errs on the side of caution.
Leave the doughy walrus midget men alone! They're peaceful fishermen who make jewelry! The world can't be populated by bishounen like Alphinaud... you can't complain about Auri ladies being too cutesy and then demand my fictional walrus men be similarly built or they'll face genocide! Boo double standard! -
06-03-2015, 02:24 PMIsklexi
Maybe they're matriarchal, and they bred their men as eye-candy. Conversely, the women could be mounted outriders that hunt and patrol the tribe's land while the men remain behind to guard established villages. That would at least give some kind of minor explanation for the size difference.
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06-03-2015, 02:30 PMjomoruQuote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
I'd rather Xaela males be made smaller and Raen Females made larger it would make more sense based on real world populations, however they aren't likely do that. So better to come up with some interesting justification for such. IF they ever do decide to invert the setup(big females, small males) likely it will be by adding a third clan. -
06-03-2015, 04:25 PMMahri
I haven't got much science to contribute here, but all I can say is that Olympic-level gymnasts, male and female, tend to be pretty freakin' tiny. Given that anime rules are in full effect so the fancier your moves the better, then this is why female Au Ra rock in a fight.
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06-03-2015, 04:41 PMDualblade
Being some of the things implied about the Allagans, them tampering with the Au Ra is more likely then outright eugenics on their part in my mind.
Either that, or it's a Nemesis plot. -
06-03-2015, 04:44 PMSamcaesarPretty reasonable, but if one chooses to not have children with others because of specific traits, isn't that eugenics (Specifically "negative eugenics") as well? That social order instilled into children has to come from somewhere, chances are it's alienation and a "Us versus them" mentality. Ultimately if society tells these people to not do things such as "reproduce with those different than you" then that's eugenics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Huh, really interesting thing you brought up about the capture of women and children with Native American tribes, I did not know that! Pretty interesting method to preventing inbreeding, as harsh as it is.
But, I still would wonder why would they not wish the look for the best mate when either exiled, surely they wouldn't go "Whelp, first girl I've found, time to make babies and start a new tribe." It's a wonder though, why wouldn't the Auri choose the best of the fellow outcasts to mate with? If he doesn't his new tribe doesn't have much of a leg to stand on, alternatively why would Auri women be outcasted? In either case would I feel a Auri man would still go for the best mate possible, if he's got options, he's got reasons to pick one of them over the rest.
Reasonable explanation of genetics and sexual dimorphism, but I feel that it's ignoring that height is controlled by genes that are also present on the other chromosomes, as prepubescent growth stems has to from something along the presence of the a variety of heights with men and women that cause average height differences to only difference of about 5 inches in the US in the united states (Showing that sex chromosomes aren't the sole factor in humans at least). One has so wonder why these variations aren't a thing in the Au Ra, like, is puberty not a thing for Au Ra? As a side note, I'm a bit curious on what the genetics of Lalafell and the various beastmen would look like, considering they're on the opposite end of the spectrum of having incredibly little amount of sexual dimorphism.
1. Reasonable, I'm just making my claims based off what my knowledge of nomadic cultures in steppes general gives me. I'd actually really appreciate it if one could find an example pointing in the opposite direction of my claims, it'd be great for discussion! (Mmn, Mardu <3 Alesha is the best.)
They could change the rules, but whenever an incredibly obvious retcon occurs, it certainly cheapens the world, doesn't it? It's why authors need to stick to rules whenever developing things like magic. In either situations, I don't think we should, as consumers, settle for cop-outs :P
I'd figure Raubahn would quickly go into shock considering the sudden trauma, then Lolorito could have healers on standby prevent Raubahn from dying. Like I said though, people have an amazing body in terms to survival, the shock in this case would cause Raubahn's heart to suddenly slow down, along with causing him to likely pass out rather quickly. It's not like they left his body to rot only for him to remain alive, he was captured and we do see Raubahn with a nursed wound, it implies the moment they could they gave Raubahn medical attention then tossed him into prison.
And yet the axe was developed to chop wood and the pickaxe functions in the repeated hitting of a sharp point, as opposed to a dull one. But, as I said, perhaps it's not a situation of just destroying the rock that makes up of it, but instead of disrupting the aether that keeps it alive, repeated damages from any weapon somehow causing that. It would make sense considering spells are also effective against rock monsters that you wouldn't figure be too useful against rocks, such as the various fire spells or Bio/Miasma being more of an Aether based contamination as opposed to an actual one.
3. Very good point! And I agree, I think we can reach the agreement that we don't know what a mixed race would look like, it could even give us something that looks vastly different. Maybe once Heavensward is out and the dev team gets a break we can bug the lore team for info?
5. To condense posts, let's talk about possibilities for that cause of there. as opposed to down here at 5.
Would people really get that upset over Xaela women becoming more tougher looking? It's not like they lack the option as the Raen would remain as waifish as they are. If the answer is "We didn't have enough time" then why shouldn't they dedicate time afterwards to solving that issue? Honestly I feel several additions to the character customization screen is something every player would support. (Also forgive me for the various terms >_> I'm not really sure how I was exposed to slang words such as bunk but I have!
If no one says it was a mistake, then SE won't know at least some people thought it was a mistake. Money shouldn't be the only reason SE decides to change things in this game after all (And it isn't if you look at some of their justifications and some of their changes, in particular the nerfing of dungeons and the like). If they decide to change the men, I won't be complaining honestly! But there's much less people complaining about how they look possessing a more unique identity (Like, while their torsos are similar to elezen. Auri's men go to comparison, damn Auri men have some waspish waists and a much more noticeable difference in facial structure)
It is, but why should it be the case? If the Hyurs differences proved something is that SE is willing to make differences for sensible lore, the Highlanders coming from a very harsh mountainous region, while the Midlanders come from a much more placid one. Considering the separation and different environments the two clans live in, I at least expected them to look different besides scale color and minor skin tone choices.
What have they got to lose? Fantasia junkies already jump around between the races constantly. heck I'd actually pay for a fantasia (Or just use the two free ones I will have >_>) to change my Xaela into a tough Xaela lady, but I can't! If it's the artists feeling they wasted time, well tell that to the poor devs who designed the original Steps of Faith :P They're gonna make things people won't use, why not try to hit the mark and appeal to all sorts of people? (Bringing it back to the Steps of Faith, instead of nerfing it to heck and back, they make a storymode version and an actual version!)
Hardly! We've got cutesy ladies out the butt in the game, we need some cutesy dudes somewhere! Perhaps.. Some clan differences with doughy walrus mini men in one, bishounen men in the other would suffice :P -
06-03-2015, 08:31 PMlilirulu
Steps of Faith didn't offer any rewards. If they were going to have two versions they'd need to add in rewards to the tougher version because no one would do outside of completing it (if even that). Nerfing it was the best option because it wasn't ever intended to be "hardcore" content but a story trial. And it's not as if SE nerfed it because it was actually hard (it wasn't) but because people are generally stupid.
As for why the Xaela are are tiny as the Raen; The answer simple: They didn't want to make two unique sets of assets (8-unique face models (est. 20+ features for each), two body models*) not to mention it'd be unfair for the females to get two versions while men get one. And if they give the males two unique versions you're looking at 16 unique face models, four body models*, and probably unique animations for each.
And Highlanders are a unique case because they came from 1.0 and were originally male-only. The ladies didn't come in until 2.0*.
*This depends on if the Au Ra are actually going to get unique body models at all. As it is currently in-game all female (excluding Lalafell, who use the same models for the most part between male/female) have the exact same body model (outside of being naked and racial gear) for their armor. So, fem highlanders are really only unique in their facial model. -
06-03-2015, 10:53 PMLineageRazorOnce the Benchmark was released and players were able to design their characters, that was pretty much the nail in the coffin for the possibility of making Xaela into the highlanders of the Au Ra. This kind of thing that we've gotten an actual dev response on: While I don't have a link for it, a while back someone posted that they were dissatisfied with the way that one Keeper of the Moon face type lacked the pronounced canines that other Keeper faces have. They liked the face, but wanted the same teeth that the other Keepers have. A dev replied that there were no plans to change this, as it would be unfair to folks who would be irritated at suddenly having longer teeth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samcaesar
Adjusting the Xaela models to make Xaela fems more imposing and buff (and presumably, adjusting Raen men to be a bit scrawnier) would be a whole new level of this kind of disturbance. Suddenly players who'd picked Xaela simply because they liked the dark scales would suddenly see their lizard-lady waifus git swoll - very off-putting, for some!
Once the models are released for public consumption, changes to them are very unlikely to happen. -
06-03-2015, 11:02 PMIsklexiGene expression is a grab bag of behavior. Some things show up from a single gene variation while others use Rube Goldberg levels of interaction between many different genes. It's possible that the sequences responsible for Au Ra height are linked in some way to other less obvious traits. It could be that these other traits were beneficial enough that they outweighed any disadvantage from smaller stature amongst the females (or taller males depending on context).Quote:
Originally Posted by Samcaesar
An example to illustrate this is homosexuality (hopefully this isn't too controversial to bring up). This trait has obvious disadvantages from an evolutionary standpoint. A creature with this trait is significantly less likely to pass on its genetic legacy to the next generation, and yet, the trait appears with mild frequency throughout wild animal populations (notably among fruit bats for some reason). Scientists still don't know why for sure, but it must provide some kind of benefit for it not to have been selected out of the gene pool by now. -
06-04-2015, 01:26 AMSaintAjora
So, I probably shouldn't get involved in all of this, but I couldn't help but notice something. When you talk about how maybe the guys shouldn't be so big for the nomadic lifestyle on the steppes, riding horses and all, I actually just start thinking of the Dothraki. I know they're fictional, but I don't feel like it's too much to wonder if maybe the devs just really like Game of Thrones, and they were thinking "well, it works there...". XD I also read that the Dothraki take some inspiration from the Mongolians, among others, so it still lines up, I think.
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06-04-2015, 01:52 AMjomoruMale homosexuality actually HAS been proven to have distinct evolutionary advantages the problem is you're thinking in simple pair based setup. Rather Women with gay children and siblings tend to have more children enough to cancel out the drop off from lack of homosexual reproduction. Thus the bloodline carries on through a smaller set of breeding females while the males are able to help provide for those children, at least in the village based set up our biology is set for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isklexi
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06-04-2015, 01:59 AMCiliaChoosing a mate based on their ethnicity is not eugenics; it's a matter of social boundaries or custom. Incidentally, this does lead to a greater incidence of genetic diseases among certain ethnic groups (such as Sickle Cell among African-Americans and Tay-Sachs among the Jewish people), and yet despite knowing this people continue to do so for whatever reason. Humans do not run entirely on logic, and this can be seen when people will break those social boundaries and/or customs and choose a mate based purely on love and affection (unquantifiable concepts) despite the social climate deeming it unacceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samcaesar
Xaela exiles (of either sex) will probably look for the best mates, but if there's no attraction might choose not to have children, or might have children to give the tribe more bodies regardless of how overall weak those children could be. See above on illogical choices among human mating habits. Au Ra aren't human, but they probably follow similar emotional processes (especially the Xaela; "fiery wills," remember?). People are complicated, and rarely choose a mate based solely on the advantages it can give offspring.
In regards to reasons for being exiled... don't know. There are numerous possibilities, but without knowing their customs anything is possible. Stealing food, leaving a tribe-mate to die, killing PoWs, etc.
My example of how sexual dimorphism can be present in Au Ra was a simplification for the sake of argument. Isklexi explained it better than I care to:
(As an aside, do not worry about discussing homosexuality, buddy. I had to try and explain to people how Auri sex organs can still be compatible despite the difference in size between the men and women, so... yeah.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Isklexi
I seriously doubt SE has the Au Ra genome mapped out, and trying to apply the human genome to them is fruitless since they aren't exactly human.
1. The point is they can say anything is possible, because "aether / magic / Allagan tech," and we just have to accept it because the reasoning can't be contested without scientific study of what is and isn't possible though the application of "aether / magic / Allagan tech."
Raubahn not going into shock from the loss of his arm already breaks real-world logic, never mind fighting in that state for any length of time without hours of medical care and days (if not weeks) to recuperate.
Pickaxes are effective mining tools because they are designed to break up the structure of the rock by focusing all their force into one point; axes are not. Sledgehammers bludgeon the rock and break up their structure to the point pickaxes can be used. The rest is "magic," which can be neither proven nor disproven.
5. Don't know if or how many people would be upset if they changed Xaela females to be sturdier; however...
... is what I've been saying all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
Dungeons and player models are very different bits of content, so stating that they change dungeons and so should be willing to change character models is not a very strong argument.
There's a major difference in saying "The Auri women's design was a mistake!" and "I think the Auri women's design was a mistake!"; the former passes it as truth, while the latter acknowledges it as just your opinion. You're entitled to your opinion, but do not try and pass it off as the truth.
I don't claim to know why the Hyur are the exception among races when it comes to having different models based on the clans. Regardless, the fact of the matter is they are, and expecting any other race to have unique models based on their clan is probably just setting yourself up for disappointment. Lore justification? Genetics.
I already said the doughy walrus midget men were cute and cuddly! Like god-damn teddy bears! Besides, we already have cute males; this is almost literally what Lalafell are for! They're not bishounen; that's what Midlander Hyur and Elezen are for, maaaaaaaan! -
06-04-2015, 02:15 AMKytrinThis is in no way related to the current discussion, but I went into a giggle fit when I read that. Thank you for the Fairy Tail reference! Even if it wasn't intentional it was a hysterical way to break up the seriousness of the discussion. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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06-04-2015, 03:01 AMzuzu-bq
I don't even know what is happening in this thread anymore.
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06-04-2015, 03:17 AMKytrinLooks to me like they've gotten into a massive debate about how realistic the Au Ra physiology and culture are. In particular, there seems to be a huge amount of debate about the height/build differences between the males and females and how that could possibly come about. I think there's also some stuff mixed in about Raen vs. Xaela and how the Xaela should be the Au Ra equivalent of Highlanders (which I admit would be kind of cool...).Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzu-bq
Personally I'm not going to stress about it either way. I've built my female Raen and I'm perfectly happy with her as is. Though I do recommend reading over some of the posts. They're quite interesting. Some of these guys got REALLY in depth. -
06-04-2015, 04:06 AMCiliaActually I'm basing them on cuteified version of the Tuskarr from Warcraft, a race of... walrus men with an Inuit-like culture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kytrin
Still, I'm glad someone is laughing, because being all super-cereal like this all the time is draining.
We're actually going into in-depth discussions on (gasp!) Au Ra physiology and social structure (other lore) instead of just posting pictures of moé moé lizard lady waifus.Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzu-bq
Git gud scrub!:cool: -
06-04-2015, 05:53 AMKytrinI remember those! I spent many, many, many, weeks trying to up my rep with them before I said eff it and wandered off to do other things before Cataclysm came out. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
On a more thread related note, and apologies if this came up before and I missed it, since I THINK Othard is located in that misty vaguely labled Garlean Empire portion of the map...what do you guys think the odds of Au Ra having come into contact with Ala Mhigo before it fell, or even Gridania, before they became refugees?
For that matter, why go to Vesper Bay of all places? That's all the way down in the southern tip of the continent. I can understand avoiding Garlean patrols and the like, but doesn't Limsa have certified pirates preying on those? Just seems like they went way out of their way in that regard. -
06-04-2015, 06:44 AMCiliaI do not think any Au Ra came into contact with anyone prior to Yugiri leading her band of Doman refugees into Vesper Bay. The Raen are stated to be part of Doman society (with them being rather conservative, and not frequently venturing outside their own borders), while the Xaela are nomads who probably do not have the technological know-how to develop ships capable of carrying them across the sea to Eorzea. Either way, let's look at the currently charted territory of Hydaelyn (with some annotations made by YT):Quote:
Originally Posted by Kytrin
Considering this, here's how I think the Doman refugees got to Eorzea (with the red line being a naval blockade by the Garleans, and the blue a possible route the refugees took):
So if the Garleans are blockading Gridania's naval ports and Ul'dah has no port cities before Vesper Bay, it's probable Vesper Bay was the safest place to land. -
06-04-2015, 07:13 AMKytrin
Okay, I'll buy that explanation. I always envisioned Othard as further north, but the map isn't really labeled so that works too.
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06-04-2015, 07:46 AMjomoruPeople are just antsy waiting for lore to drop and are thus chatting.Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzu-bq
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06-04-2015, 09:20 AMzuzu-bqI would love to discuss this all, after they actually release more lore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
I understand the hype, but this is too much for me to speculate.
I'm dying to know how Raen and Xaela interact with each other, how the nomads will see the opportunity of exploring a whole new continent that is Eorzea, starting with the vast fields of La Noscea! And how this whole new race will interact with all things that Eorzea have that they may not have seen before in Othard.
Plus, my english is not that good to write long text walls. I feel left out. :( -
06-04-2015, 09:58 AMSamcaesarWhenever you're as small as the Auri women are, it doesn't matter how fast you are on horseback if you can't properly defend yourself or attack (Even archers have very muscular arms). There were plenty of counters to horseback archers, such as the ability for infantry to properly defend themselves with large shields. Besides if you killed the horse, the Auri rider would be practically defenseless considering how frail they look (And probably are. Considering they were designed to look like they needed to be protected).Quote:
Originally Posted by jomoru
Again, lack of balance and proper strategy is the issue here, the Au Ra would need far better tactics than just "Women on horseback because they'd be fast. Men on defense because they're strong" because we'd get to a "Unstoppable force vs Immovable object" situation. Now, say if we mixed Auri men into offense (Possibly by breeding horses to be bigger, considering in FFXIV the same is done with Chocobo) they might have enough strength to pierce through the defenses. And while I can't think of a reason to have the much less stronger Auri women on defense, the point is, if you're going to be fighting war, you're going to need to be the best. Best in speed, best in strength, best in defense, and best in tactics. With the physical structure of the Auri women being so weak looking currently, it doesn't add up for them to be in a society that focuses on battle.
Sedentary life =! larger more muscular bodies, otherwise the Domans wouldn't be midlanders, they'd be highlanders (Keep in mind the highlanders in Ala Mhigo probably have their body shape due to how militaristic their society is focused). Sure the more readily available food source would allow for a more healthier life, but due to the fact that Raen seem to be far more peaceful (Ie that "Embraces a life of tranquility" bit), there wouldn't be societal push to be as strong as you could, after all, who cares about being strong whenever you don't have to worry about life or death situations?
As humorous as that'd be, I don't think it'd be too smart to breed your population for good looks :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Isklexi
See the biggest issue with that is lack of balance, you either want to be the absolute best in all aspects or you want to have your forced diverse enough to function in many situations.
Hm, good enough reasoning, but wouldn't that result in a situation where the men are suffering due to the lack of those beneficial traits? I mean, assuming height isn't strictly set up on the sex chromosomes, then I'd figure a push for a more balanced body would be still there, except making the men in general smaller as opposed to larger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isklexi
There is the issue of genes being there just remaining not expressed, which would explain why it pops up. Basically everyone having the "Gay gene" but only under certain circumstances would the gene actually come into effect. Alternatively, and I'm not sure in the case of other animals, bisexual people might be partially responsible for the gene continuing.
While I can see where you're heading with this, my main issue is that evolutionary advantage is one that exists through society and non necessarily through genes. Like, "Oh well they don't want to have kids, guess we could use them to help mothers with childcare."Quote:
Originally Posted by jomoru
Considering (And it's such an annoying thing on the internet but it works so well in this conversation) the Nazis actively advocated eugenics in terms of ethnic purity, I'd say yes choosing a mate based on their ethnicity is eugenics. If society or customs dictate "You marry the strongest woman possible" is that eugenics? As that was what I was talking about earlier. It's no different than choosing a mate based on physical strength. While people will break from social boundaries, which is true in FFXIV's universe as well, there is still societal pressures that most people will conform too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Love and attraction choosing their mates is perfectly reasonable reason, but people do definitely narrow their decisions based on those societal pressures, if one of those pressures is "Pick a strong woman" then I'm sure that'd color their decision to a degree.
I doubt they would too! It'd probably be crazy difficult to do that. They might not be human, but they are a "Race of man" which would mean they're similar enough to Hydaelyn's human equivalent to be able to reproduce.
1. Given that SE doesn't just leave it at "Magic" and actually spends a lot of time talking about Aether and its properties it's hardly not "Studied". While they could change the rules on a whim Magic works as a reason whenever the rules and limitations of magic are explained, in FFXIV, I would say the game spends a good bit talking about Aether, therefore it can be contested. Magic must have limitations and rules, SE spends time talking about Aether in the game and one can draw plenty of conclusions from it. While SE can add rules to it whenever they want, if they use it in a scenario which previously wasn't the case, then they're retconning, which is generally avoided in stories to keep the quality high.
He collapsed immediately after he lost his arm, the rest of everyone rather quickly clears out, considering that Lolorito probably planned everything and had healers on hand, it'd hardly be "Hours without medical care". Plus it's been several weeks after the incident in Ul'dah occurring by the time we see Raubahn in the jail cell, note his facial hair has grown well past his normal 5'o clock shadow so I doubt the jail cell shot was days after the occurrence. He could've recovered just fine, as Lolorito probably wanted to keep him alive for some reason.
That's my point though, by using the daggers as a pick, it wouldn't be very effective, but it's still chisel away. My point with the axes is that they were designed to use the weight of the head to hit something far harder, bark on wood for example. Hammers and axes function similarly enough. Perhaps aether infused metal is used in weapon productions to make them actually useful against aetheric beings, the soul bound (See aether) relic weapons function on a similar basis after all.
5. I suppose, but I'm not saying "Remove the Auri female model entirely" I'm saying change one of the clans so that people actually have a bit more variety with their options, it might actually attract some people to the game. I really doubt people would care that much over having to change to the Raen to keep their waifish characters as waifish as they are. Why shouldn't SE just sate both parties her and make the change?
My bad, I think the Auri women's design is a mistake, however I feel saying "The Auri woman's design is fine and makes perfect sense"
It's less about the content, more about the fact they changed things in the game. Your reasoning to why they might not want to make tougher models is that the artists might want appreciation and not see their work go to waste, so I brought up changes in the game as examples of SE having to change things in general. I mean, after all, why change a dungeon, wouldn't those responsible for designing the mechanics in it not like it if players said "Change it! It's too hard!".
I might be setting myself up for disappointment, but I see it more as putting SE up to the challenge! If they did it once, they can do it again and I don't see why they shouldn't.
That's what lalafell are for, silly! They're basically teddy bears that are also plotting bastards in most cases (Fufulupa being a good exception, that little nerd would probably be totally down for cuddles for cuddles sake). They bishounen I suppose, but they lack the exact feminine charms that Alphinaud has! We need some hella effeminate men!
Sadly, it probably is too late. That dev post just seems awkward though, like who honestly looks at or cares about the size of their character's canines? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
Perhaps I might get lucky in the future and additional clans or something get added, but I doubt that’d be the case as well.
Anyways, I'm gonna do as Zuzu will and tap out with this post. All this speculation is getting a bit too much even for me. Let's just hope the Lore Devs give us a lore drop soon ; ; It's been fun discussing with you all <3 -
06-04-2015, 10:22 AMIsklexiProven is a very strong word in science. I am aware of a few hypotheses put forward on the subject. However, constructing a workable experiment to support them would be quite difficult given the subject matter both for ethical reasons as well as the time scales involved with human evolutionary selection. The two hypotheses I'm aware of are as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by jomoru
1. Gay family members act as caregivers, increasing the fitness of their family's offspring. Their genetic lineage is then passed on vicariously via their siblings.
2. The suite of genes involved provide great benefits when they appear in limited number and only manifest as homosexuality when all are present simultaneously. Thus they are a net benefit the majority of the time.
It may still provide benefits to a lesser degree, and even if it doesn't, it matters much less for men. From a purely biological standpoint, you only need a handful of males in each generation to reach breeding maturity to ensure the next generation; it's much more important for females to survive to breed multiple times. Some species on Earth take this to some impressive extremes (male Bees almost literally explode after sex).Quote:
Originally Posted by Samcaesar
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06-04-2015, 10:25 AMWyrahFhurrstProof against this idea would be the Odin Minion, where it states "A popular theory is that Odin acquired the blade upon slaying an Auri warrior..." which goes to show that we did know of the race, but not necessarily the specifics of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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06-04-2015, 10:29 AMlilirulu
Adding in more models is much much more difficult then the changes done to Steps of Faith. SoF only had some numbers tweaked and nothing else. While adding new models would involve designing, Creating the Model(s) (and to further break that down: Sculpting, Making Normal Maps & Textures, Producing the game-ready and LoD models), Making w/ Mocap new animations, adding in or altering all ready existing armour models to fit. It's not comparable at all.
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06-04-2015, 01:16 PMjomoruQuote:
Originally Posted by Samcaesar
Au'ri Females ARE NOT FRAIL. They are the right muscular proportion for someone who would live on the steppes. The Males are unnatural. The males have nothing in common with any Steppe people in human history. The females are the same proportions as Attilla "Scourge of God" the Hun. They are the same proportions as the people who made up the Golden Horde. The males are the ones who have no basis in biology. The Males are the ones who require magic to be justified. Not the females.
And you really don't seem to understand at all how the Mongols fought. They made use of Hit and run tactics. It doesn't matter how armored your infantry is if they get hit by arrows out of nowhere. Yes if your infantry is ready to fight they have defenses.. That's not generally how the mongols hit infantry they would keep harrying them and moving back.
Again you keep trying to bring in genetics when you have no knowledge of history, physiology or physics A larger horse cannot have the endurance or speed of a smaller horse. That's not possible outside pure magical fiat. The sweetspot of speed and endurance is something that would be perfect for females. You can't just make an animal bigger without it having to move greater mass, and while it might be stronger it will have less endurance.Quote:
Again, lack of balance and proper strategy is the issue here, the Au Ra would need far better tactics than just "Women on horseback because they'd be fast. Men on defense because they're strong" because we'd get to a "Unstoppable force vs Immovable object" situation. Now, say if we mixed Auri men into offense (Possibly by breeding horses to be bigger, considering in FFXIV the same is done with Chocobo) they might have enough strength to pierce through the defenses. And while I can't think of a reason to have the much less stronger Auri women on defense, the point is, if you're going to be fighting war, you're going to need to be the best. Best in speed, best in strength, best in defense, and best in tactics. With the physical structure of the Auri women being so weak looking currently, it doesn't add up for them to be in a society that focuses on battle
Sedentary life style DOES mean that. That's what the real world shows. Nutrition is a really big part in why people get taller and stronger. If you'd like to try and argue purely from in game stuff go right ahead but stop using genetics in the case as you're clearly ignoring most real world stuff already.Quote:
Sedentary life =! larger more muscular bodies, otherwise the Domans wouldn't be midlanders, they'd be highlanders (Keep in mind the highlanders in Ala Mhigo probably have their body shape due to how militaristic their society is focused). Sure the more readily available food source would allow for a more healthier life, but due to the fact that Raen seem to be far more peaceful (Ie that "Embraces a life of tranquility" bit), there wouldn't be societal push to be as strong as you could, after all, who cares about being strong whenever you don't have to worry about life or death situations?