Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

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Originally Posted by Melithea

I brought up the overall lack of content to SHOW that it was a separate issue, not to derail the thread and make it the main topic. Making Coil accessible to everyone will not solve the late-patch cycle doldrums.

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That's exactly the issue and i agree that making coil more accessible wont fix the overall issue. Diverse rich rewards isn't spread equally across all forms of content.

In the time between major patches which is usually 2-3 months the first month is easily done for casual or mainstream players. Can also be applied to the top 10-100 groups, I assume.
Yet those doing coil have gear to grind across 9 jobs for that additional month. The overall experience is rewarding.
Casual or mainstream players don't really have much to look forward to unless a minor patch really introduces something but it isn't as rewarding as coil. So the overall experience is simply an experience and not only is the rewards small it's turning into a grind. Grinds and range are the worst possible ways to approach lighthearted content.

I have no clue if Golden Saucer will fix this. For sure the new class/job is gonna add another months worth for players to experience and gear.
Frontlines will tackle PvP players wanting to PvP but I don't know how that 24v24v24 is gonna affect the overall experience but at least we'll know soon enough.

Sorry for the late reply, post limit was reached.

People are complaining because this round of content is hardcore tuned, wait till when 2.3 CT2 releases, people will be busy clearing new content again. To be honest, these threads are almost always in tune with the release cycles. I expect people to complain about CT2's drop rate on sands and oils when its out.

The other issue is

xxx static grp clears "new" content with xxx type jobs.
e others fllw suit.

These dungeons/raids become "fixed" for xxx job types only.
so remaining players are left out n frustrated for not being to participate.
as not every1 have all lvl50s job types.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Casual or mainstream players don't really have much to look forward to unless a minor patch really introduces something but it isn't as rewarding as coil. So the overall experience is simply an experience and not only is the rewards small it's turning into a grind. Grinds and range are the worst possible ways to approach lighthearted content.

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Why dont you name it: Animus and Novus...
So many were looking forward to it and walling gear upgrades with rare drops behind Coil2 doesnt help anything either...
Its not even a grind, it is a massive timesink and gilsink too... Have you already forgotten Contentsellers? Those now not only selling Coil2 but also have enough gil for Materia to additional getting Novus...

It feels like an overall 5%-10% of the playerbase is getting progress/support and all others are left behind... CT2 is a drop on the hot stone because of upgrading gear with those reare drops we just gotten in Coil2 before...

You should never use all kind of possible restrictions to lock content away.
Only Timesink, or
Only Gilsink, or
Only grind, or
Only RNG, but never all at same time! Step by Step!!

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

CT2 is a drop on the hot stone because of upgrading gear with those reare drops we just gotten in Coil2 before...

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CT2 is already pretty pointless before it even launches. It'll drop gear of equivalent ilevel to Weathered sets which will once again locked behind a one piece a week cockblock. It doesn't drop weapons at all which is because they wouldn't want to introduce an alternative weapon gearing path that would undermine their Novus chain. I'm sure they'll still be patting themselves on the back at creating such a disgusting, unimaginative timesink that the players will be grinding for months yet.

Sure, it'll drop Sands etc but I guarantee that will count towards your one drop/week restriction.

This content-lengthening through the use of weekly restrictions needs to stop. It's about time we were given a huge update with enough content to keep us busy for months. When you look at the pathetically small world we're adventuring in compared to FFXI or even 1.0 with its reskin-o-rama you have to wonder the dev time is being utilised on. I'd like to believe the expansion will give us more content than we can shake a stick at but the reality of it is it'll most likely be a few zones with gating mechanics and subsequent content dripfed in quarterly cycles much as we have now.

Aaaaand let's begin the game today with:

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Fights in a MMORPG should be based on your character vs enemies. This game focus way to much on you and your connection vs mechanics. It's more like S-E wants this game to be like a action/adventure/shooter kind of game, since stats, gear and abilities/magic has so limited impact.

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I have a hard time understanding why anyone would play a game that isn't focused on their own accomplishments. When you ask for a game based "on your character", what you are asking is for a game that plays itself. Don't fool yourself here. In this game, when you decide to execute an ability that is you making the decision. The number that pops right after is not you.

FFXIV has a straight, easy to understand gearing system. Stats are clear and there's no convoluted combinations you can pull off (side note: and if you could, chances are someone would already do the math for you and publish it as Best Setup For X Job, defeating the point). So in a game like this you are not the numbers your abilities land for, you are the decisions you take and the reaction you apply.

You are not awesome because you did a 1k dmg attack, you are awesome because you landed that attack just as you side stepped between landslide and bombs and didn't even get hit.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

The OP's post only scratches the surface of the problems in the game. Here is what is needed to fix things, IMHO:

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I'm going to take your post and explain why this would not fix the things that the OP complains about. Some of your proposals will make the game more fun for me, but at the same time will make the game harder unless, of course, you make them so trivial that they become irrelevant.

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• No content should be 'dumbed down' with ham-fisted tools like the "echo buff". Doing so diminishes the achievements of those who worked hard to conquer it, and it heaps condescension on those that haven't.

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Right, echo makes fights silly. T4 is probably the highest offender I can think of. And yet, this is actually what the OP is defending...

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• No boss fight should be 100% scripted -- Every Boss should use AI to determine the majority of their actions -- based on their own internal cool-downs, triggers, and the behavior of the players.

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Absolutely. Titan should toss WotL on people that are surrounding a healer so that the healer is trapped, or use smart patterns so that there's almost no escape for you. He should always aim landslide towards the most difficult to dodge point. He should analyze a tank's cooldowns and decide to combo their asses when there's no self buffs on. He should gaol the healer with the highest MP while leaving the one with low MP to heal some massive stomp damage. Twintania should delay death sentence until the tank has no CDs up and target the closest person with her dread knights. And so on.

Would be pretty awesome, really, if the monsters had some real AI that would react to the players and I've asked for this since my time in FFXI, however, I ask it for a simple reason: it would make fights harder. And again, that's not what the OP wants. No amount of gear or echo would make these fights easier either, which is another of OP's points.

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• Mainstream boss attacks may inflict insti-kill, or perma-death, but NOT BOTH simultaneously.

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I see little problem with this and I believe it's a matter of taste. Permanent death is a bitch, but it's what we pay for how easy it is to get someone else back on track after they die. It makes death count. The alternative is to make getting people up mid fight much harder... which it was in FFXIV before they gave players an invincible time as they got back up.

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• Every boss' stats and drop rates should be together modified from a range (eg. +/-10%) that is randomly applied each encounter.

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Not really seeing the point of this. Plus, with the easy entry and exit system we have, people would just go in, probe the boss, determine if the random buff/nerf is -10% or +10% and exit again and again till they get a nerfed one.

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• Every boss should have a 1~2 extra abilities (from a pool of ~4) that are randomly assigned to it each encounter.

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I'm game for this. It will also make it even harder ^^

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• Every boss and FATE boss should have an ultra-rare (~0.5%) drop, even if the drop is just vanity.

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We have that in some fights and it's not very useful to get people to repeat them at this point. All primals drop pets at low rate, Leviathan on top of that drops mirrors and Ramuh will drop rare weapons. While a nice addition, it sadly doesn't work well to make people keep going into this content after they realize the low drop rate is like winning the lottery.

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• Bosses and FATE Bosses should enter 'desperation mode' when their HP falls below an assigned ranged of 10~15%. During this mode, they may become faster, more powerful, erratic and/or gain new attacks.

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Or they could do it like in TERA where monsters would enrage during the fight at different HP intervals. It was pretty awesome, because it made things so much more difficult! (Unless you fought teraliths... those are actually easier enraged <.<).
But sadly, I don't think the OP actually wants this... imagine Titan simply deciding to cast a faster landslide or faster WotL! Oh, the rage.

"Not only is this lag based, but it's also unfair that he randomly enrages and I can't prepare for it!"

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• The vertical gear system should only exist between level caps... as gear reaches the cap, it should branch out and become horizontal providing players with a variety of options for builds.

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Honestly, there's no way they can keep this system of making previous gear infinitely obsolete. I hope this crap ends by the time they rise the level cap with (I hope) the expansion.

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• Old content should have its party number/build requirements reduced or elimitated when new replacement content is released. (with the obvious exception of CT or other alliance raids)

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Meh, this is one of the few ideas on the OP that I find "ok". I don't see the complete point of it, but it would allow people with non multiples of 8 to actually help each other while at the same time making the encounter easier for themselves. The main problem I see with it is that it could backfire into becoming the de facto way of doing things instead of an alternative, which could have a heavy impact on the game.

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• If server load is a problem, instanced content should be soft-gated through a variety of methods. Some should have cooldown timers, some should require farming entry items, some use currency (eg GC seals) to enter, etc etc...

• Standard Dungeons should feature an 'open-world exploration option' where players can casually enter and mine, harvest, treasure hunt and encounter FATE bosses which drop some thematic loot.

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Whatever I guess. Someone may want that.

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• Job skills and Limit Breaks should be revamped to reward players who coordinate attacks and actions.

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The Limit Break system is a huge missed opportunity. I have no idea why it's not a party based coordination attack. In fact, when I first tried LB I naturally assumed it was a party based thing. Yes, it was a huge let down.

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• (a personal wish) New explorable zones.. more open, with higher lvl monsters that pose a serious agrro threat to players

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Imagine the rage. We already have threads asking to remove weight from aggroing on your chocobo.
"Why do I need a party to go through this zone?! All I want to do is reach the primal's spawn point! FIX NOW WTF"

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Not only will these changes make the game better, but they will make the player community better as well. In FFXI, even PUG players would often /comfort someone who lost a BNCM battle and they would donate some of their own winnings to lessen the loss.

Randomness and AI add another important factor to the outcome of a battle. To put it bluntly: Without randomness in battles, players can (and will) only heap blame each other if they lose.

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So the objective is to blame the RNG AI for your wipe instead? That would cause even more complains than what we have now.

As I said at the start of this, I'm all game for a better AI that makes encounters less predictable and more reactive. And, funny enough, this would make the game much harder and more "latency dependent" (aka, reaction dependent)... unless they make all these skills so irrelevant and weak that you can eat all of them with your i100 gear on an i80 encounter, which is actually the cornerstone of OP's proposal (i.e. echo and gear allowing you to bypass mechanics you cannot deal with yourself). At which point fights would actually become much more boring.

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So what exactly is my point with this? Simple:

I believe people have not really read and understood the OP. You saw what happened with that guy quoting the EC video: he had clearly not understood much of it.

What I believe is happening in this thread is that there's a bunch of people stuck at higher tier content, namely Titan Ex, Twintania and Coil 2, which would like to do this content now but cannot, thus they want it nerfed. These people saw a relatively well written post that included this idea somewhere and without truthfully understanding what it says they decided to make it their Avatar of Light. But all they are doing is following a false prophet.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

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Because it doesn't start or stop at animus/novus. All content is capable of being victimized to some sort of ridiculous sink or lockout.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

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Agree entirely.

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Originally Posted by Iriadysa

As I said at the start of this, I'm all game for a better AI that makes encounters less predictable and more reactive. And, funny enough, this would make the game much harder and more "latency dependent" (aka, reaction dependent)... unless they make all these skills so irrelevant and weak that you can eat all of them with your i100 gear on an i80 encounter, which is actually the cornerstone of OP's proposal (i.e. echo and gear allowing you to bypass mechanics you cannot deal with yourself). At which point fights would actually become much more boring.

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This right here is the crux. People don't seem to realize that the "solutions" they are asking for will have harsh consequences. They will either:

1. Make fights much, MUCH harder than they already are by requiring you to be even more reactive and giving you less ability to plan ahead.

2. Make fights much, MUCH more boring than they already are as people simply overgear them and ignore strategy entirely (like they do right now with Turns 1 and 2).

Many of the suggestions are not bad, you just need to think through to where they lead the game as you have proposed them.

Honestly I think the best suggestion that I've seen in this thread or any other is to introduce a casual/easy/story mode to balance brutal mode, and let people feel like they are still progressing something, kind of. There are still many problems with this.

1. It won't solve anybody's boredom.
2. People will complain if it drops loot. People will complain if it doesn't drop loot.
3. It won't be "fun".
4. It won't prepare you for the more difficult content that lies beyond. You'll simply be relegated to lower class player status until you're ready to take off the training wheels.

Can someone explain to me why it's bad to have the ability to overgear content? Every other MMO I have ever played rewards players with the ability to smash through old content that once punished, frustrated, or terrified them once they have gained a significant level gap and/or gear. Now, while I say gained I could easily have said earned. Players aren't asking for something to be handed to them on a plate here but if they have overgeared content but may still struggle with a particular encounter or external issues such as latency then that gear advantage should pick up the slack.

The only reason it's a problem with this game is that there is such a pitiful amount of content that the developers feel they have to implement level-capping and insta-kill mechanics in an effort to keep the content relevant.

The first was a nice idea back in FFXI to allow players to group with their lower level friends but soon became a lazy way for developers to design "new" content. It's particularly disrespectful to the players in so much as not only does it disregard their gear achievements it actually reverts their character's hard-earned advancement by handicapping their class's abilities.

The second, as has been discussed to death in this thread, invalidates gear levels and Echo buffs because regardless of your Health or iLevel you're still getting insta-gibbed on boss fights unless you memorise the fight and perform like a puppet.

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Originally Posted by Melithea

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That's because everyone has their own opinion in regards to handling "difficulty" and "depth".

Brutal should appeal to the hardcore elitist that desire scripted fights where you need encyclopedic knowledge to do basic functions where everything one shots you if you can't do the perfect dance. Difficulty is high, everyone needs a near BiS set to compete, rewards will be given once you complete all of the fights by the end of the week. All players that complete all turns are given the chance to get the Brutal set. (Think of the Primal Focus quest)

Normal coil should appeal to the progressive mainstream player. There will still be one shot mechanics and you'll still need to follow rotation but it will be doable as time passes by with gear (No echo until the next major patch). Grants the Normal Allagan or High Allagan set piece dedicated for that content.

Easy mode coil should appeal to the casual and progressive player. Echo can be applied from the start at the cost of a treasure coffer (until the next major patch). Yet gear is that equivalent to the token gear. In our current case that would be the ilvl 100 Weather set and the weekly lockout still applies. Also the drop rate to upgrade the weathered gear is much lower than normal coil.

Whichever version you do you'll be locked into it for that week. (until it gets removed and put on DF which only applies to Normal and Easy mode.)

Personally I wouldn't want it to come to this but it should be an acceptable compromise to even the hardcore elitist.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Can someone explain to me why it's bad to have the ability to overgear content?

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Because elitists hate the notion that you can do something you wouldn't be able to do otherwise because unlike the people that cleared it you didn't "work" for it. Then again the notion is hilarious since they use videos and guides for everything. Yet the team is catering more and more to the hardcore elitist crowd than they are the rest of their player base and Final Fantasy does kind of have a reputation for their design approaches to end up very grinding and sadistic in nature, no offense Square-Enix.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Because elitists hate the notion that you can do something you wouldn't be able to do otherwise because unlike the people that cleared it you didn't "work" for it. Then again the notion is hilarious since they use videos and guides for everything. Yet the team is catering more and more to the hardcore elitist crowd than they are the rest of their player base and Final Fantasy does kind of have a reputation for content but very grinding and sadistic on their design approach.

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Sorry but this is a bit extreme to me. I think we need to take a step back and think here.

For starters, as I've said in other posts, I don't give up on members of a Party. I know Player X and Player Y can dodge/adapt to nearly anything, but the challenge comes from leading everyone to follow the same thing. That's been a common argument throughout this thread.

With good leadership, I feel a group can complete anything. Player Z has trouble dodging Divebombs. Instead of blaming, pointing fingers for losses, etc, a good leader would recognize this and work with the player on an individual level to get through it. Like anything else in life, with enough practice, anyone can become good at something.

Is that ideal hardcore elitist? Maybe...I don't know. If you get to T9 using a methodology like that, I'd like to think that no, it isn't. And I believe you could get through most, if not all content that way, despite unforgiving mechanics.

Overgearing content runs the risk of none of that mattering. What I described, I supposed can be construed as "work", but honestly, I find it fun and engaging to know your strengths and weaknesses, and work together to figure them out as opposed to giving up.

Variety in content is appreciated; having content that is more simple tank and spank, like pretty much everything in FFXI, is fine. I don't think it should be rewarded as highly as something that took coordination and adaptation (even if you know the fight inside and out, things can happen).

I say none of this to attack you or anything, but I think if you take it from a different perspective, you'd feel better about the situation at hand. And maybe I'm weird for thinking this way. But at the end of the day, I'm enjoying myself with what is given to me currently in terms of the game.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

Is that ideal hardcore elitist?

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From my perspective it is. Since I experienced it first hand in WoW the moment raiding required more than half the group to do the perfect dance. When it took up to 10-25% of the group to carry the rest it was never horrible since players could go months on attempts and keep it lighthearted and that was the case up until the end of WotLK for the exception of a couple of raids. Once Cataclysm came around and when doing fights that required 60% of the group to pull their weight it turn that lighthearted atmosphere into a very toxic environment with constant drama.

As far as FFXIV goes from 2.0 to 2.2 I've experience that growth in toxicity and drama. I rarely ever see 5 wipes without drama. All it takes is for and elitist to see 1 bad thing no matter how minor and I already see them giving their condescending 2 cents even during the middle of a fight.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

Overgearing content runs the risk of none of that mattering. What I described, I supposed can be construed as "work", but honestly, I find it fun and engaging to know your strengths and weaknesses, and work together to figure them out as opposed to giving up.

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That is where the issue lies in general.

So what if content becomes easier over time through acquiring better gear? It's not like the hardcore elitists are going no I don't need it and they stash it on their retainers until the next coil is released.

To me the overall circumstance just reeks of hypocrisy, yet whatever. Why not compromise and seek to have separate alternatives that appeases the hardcore and/or eltists, the mainstream, and the casuals, over having this constant drama?

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

To me the overall circumstance just reeks of hypocrisy, yet whatever. Why not compromise and seek to have separate alternatives that appeases the hardcore and/or eltists, the mainstream, and the casuals, over having this constant drama?

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That was the point I was trying to make, though. If anyone is able to do it, albeit at different times than others, then isn't that appeasing everyone? I'm not arguing that over time, content becoming easier due to better gear is a bad thing. But the timing of releasing this content is important. I think it would nullify the experience of teambuilding and leadership if content were able to simply be out-geared when it's released, or shortly afterward. But the way it is now, I am satisfied with, in that regard. Titan HM used to be one of the biggest roadblocks, now no one even talks about him, because gear and echo have made it a fairly easy fight, even if a few members die.

I never played WoW. The only MMO I played seriously was FFXI, so I guess I have a bit of a different perspective when it comes to what this content is. This stuff is kind of new to me. I know within my static, we have our method of doing content, and in general it has worked to keep everyone happy, even if we're not clearing the highest possible content. Maybe down the road it will end in conflict, I have no way of actually knowing that, but for at least the past 6 months, barring a few bumps in the road, I've had a overall positive experience.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Brutal should appeal to the hardcore elitist
Normal coil should appeal to the progressive mainstream player.
Easy mode coil should appeal to the casual and progressive player.

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You just asked for three tiers of content that all appeal to "progression", including a mode that basically hands out free gear. Well, soldiery tomes already fill that purpose.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

When it took up to 10-25% of the group to carry the rest it was never horrible

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Are you seriously suggesting that FFXIV encounters should be tuned so that 2 people can carry the other 6?

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

So what if content becomes easier over time through acquiring better gear?

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It already does, and none of the "hardcores" are complaining about that. It's the casuals who are impatiently complaining that a couple fights aren't already an auto-win (and may never be. What a horrible situation if some fights still make you dodge!).

This is still an aside to the topic of Second Coil being boring to some people, however. I don't see how taking effort and strategy completely out of the fight makes it less boring, though.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

That was the point I was trying to make, though. If anyone is able to do it, albeit at different times than others, then isn't that appeasing everyone?...But the way it is now, I am satisfied with, in that regard. Titan HM used to be one of the biggest roadblocks, now no one even talks about him, because gear and echo have made it a fairly easy fight, even if a few members die.

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If there was content outside of coil.

Yet currently the answer will be no, since they aren't progressing and there's no content outside of coil equally rewarding. Having to wait 2-3 months if not another 2-3 on top of that to progress is in no way a motivational builder.

Those that aren't satisfied may not stick around for it to finally be able to clear the content and they wont really be moving on and keep progressing steadily if coil becomes an equivalent roadblock.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

I never played WoW. The only MMO I played seriously was FFXI, so I guess I have a bit of a different perspective when it comes to what this content is. This stuff is kind of new to me. I know within my static, we have our method of doing content, and in general it has worked to keep everyone happy, even if we're not clearing the highest possible content. Maybe down the road it will end in conflict, I have no way of actually knowing that, but for at least the past 6 months, barring a few bumps in the road, I've had a overall positive experience.

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I'm gonna keep it vague to word it as nicely as possible. Keep an open mind since there's more situations that happen outside your static in and out of your own server.

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Originally Posted by Melithea

You just asked for three tiers of content that all appeal to "progression", including a mode that basically hands out free gear. Well, soldiery tomes already fill that purpose.

Are you seriously suggesting that FFXIV encounters should be tuned so that 2 people can carry the other 6?

It already does, and none of the "hardcores" are complaining about that. It's the casuals who are impatiently complaining that a couple fights aren't already an auto-win (and may never be. What a horrible situation if some fights still make you dodge!).

This is still an aside to the topic of Second Coil being boring to some people, however. I don't see how taking effort and strategy completely out of the fight makes it less boring, though.

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1.) Keep jumping to that conclusion that people that would desire a Coil 2 Ez mode should be as easy if not easier than HM dungeons. Being less rewarding for the sake of being less rewarding is sure gonna motivate casuals to step up their game.
2.) No but continue to spin those words. I'm referring to leniency and change of atmosphere when you start forcing more and more players to play at a high standard.
3.) If you want to neglect what's already been pointed out for the sake of pointing fingers at figures so be it. I ain't forcing you to be empathetic.
4.) Superiority complex much?

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

If there was content outside of coil.

Yet currently the answer will be no, since they aren't progressing and there's no content outside of coil equally rewarding. Having to wait 2-3 months if not another 2-3 on top of that to progress is in no way a motivational builder.

Those that aren't satisfied may not stick around for it to finally be able to clear the content and they wont really be moving on and keep progressing steadily if coil becomes an equivalent roadblock.

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I'm on the fence about this point. I think the direction the game is going will cater to what you are asking for, if you consider the split of the Relic Storyline, EX primals, and BC endgame content. All 3 are fairly different in how they are handled, but they give the player the option to work with their playstyle.

Also, would having mechanics-driven gameplay not be an equalizer when it comes to progression in that sense? Assuming what I said is possible/true (that is, everyone can clear content given time/practice regardless of having the "best" gear), then isn't that still progress? You don't need Allagan gear to clear T5. You don't need an EX Primal weapon to clear T5. If you beat it eventually, that's still progress, whether or not your gear is actually improving.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

I'm gonna keep it vague to word it as nicely as possible. Keep an open mind since there's more situations that happen outside your static in and out of your own server.

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I wasn't trying to imply that I wasn't aware of that. I run an LS and FC, and we run things outside of the static as well, including with pick ups. The situation has always been the same or similar to what I've experienced there: as long as we have good leadership and communication, everything falls into place eventually. There are more good people out there than you'd like to think, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

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Yet you do require 7 other people to be decently geared, know their rotations inside and out, know the fight, and above all be able to react.

Providing depth is possible without the need of every single ability in the bosses rotation capable of wiping the entire group.

Never said there wasn't good people. Yet I am taking into consideration that those people that aren't progressing is in no way fair to expect for them to stick around 3-6 months just so that they can progress and then be blocked again from content in a 3-6 month period and constantly repeating itself and potentially getting worse, which it kind of has.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Yet I am taking into consideration that those people that aren't progressing is in no way fair to expect for them to stick around 3-6 months just so that they can progress and then be blocked again from content in a 3-6 month period and constantly repeating itself and potentially getting worse, which it kind of has.

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I'm sorry, I just don't see enough evidence to support that. I see people here all the time saying this, including this thread, yet they are still playing. I still see lots of people on every day, on my server at least. They always seem excited to try and learn new content, bitch about some pieces of content, then move on. I've been doing DR almost daily since its launch, and even when mistakes are made, people have been ok about it, even if they've done it a million times.

And who knows, maybe I'm being naive. I'm just going by what I am seeing. As far as the OP is concerned, I've broken it down as to what I agree and don't agree with before, and I just can't support such drastic ideas. I am happy with the way things are regarding difficulty, and, as far as I can see, the grand majority of people are as well.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

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Because those people that leave aren't forced to make goodbye threads.

I've made many state of the game rants... But I just got owned by this dude!

Good read, well worth the time.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Because those people that leave aren't forced to make goodbye threads.

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Huh?

Look, I don't think this is either of our place to argue about how many people are leaving or stay without hard numbers. Have I known people who quit? Yes. Have I known people who stayed, and continue seeing new players? Yes. Again, I'm going by what I see, but I also said I might be being naive. People are going to leave and join every day for a million different reasons. I don't think the OP nor any of us can actually provide any hard evidence as to the actual effects the mechanics have had on the playerbase size.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Never said there wasn't good people. Yet I am taking into consideration that those people that aren't progressing is in no way fair to expect for them to stick around 3-6 months just so that they can progress and then be blocked again from content in a 3-6 month period and constantly repeating itself and potentially getting worse, which it kind of has.

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Isn't that time period the same for all tiers players?

Those on COIL2 have to wait 6 months until the next turns are released.
Those on COIL1 have to wait 6 months until COIL2 is made easier.
And so on.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

I'm going by what I see

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And so have I and others as well. If you are or not naive isn't the concern here. There is an issue with gear + content and players reactions to it and it is a problem that I don't see being addressed but an issue that is being ignored.

Content is pandering to elitist and hardcore that do coil. Coil 2 is still giving the best gear and that's not a problem.

The problem is that lower content such as Primals, Tombstone gear, Atma, Animus, Novus, Cyrus Tower are all turning into grinds and costs for taking these routes over being rewarding experiences that help tackle Coil.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Content is pandering to elitist and hardcore that do coil. Coil 2 is still giving the best gear and that's not a problem.

The problem is that lower content such as Primals, Tombstone gear, Atma, Animus, Novus, Cyrus Tower are all turning into grinds and costs for taking these routes over being rewarding experiences.

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OK but...what does that have to do with the OP? I thought we were talking about the difficulty in content and how/if it is balanced or not. I don't think you need to be elitist or hardcore to complete BC, as I have explained before. If you don't agree then I guess there's not much I can say to change your mind. I have given my perspective, and how I feel.

Best of luck to you, sir :)

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

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That was already discussed in regards to depth in execution not needing complexity.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

2.) No but continue to spin those words. I'm referring to leniency and change of atmosphere when you start forcing more and more players to play at a high standard.

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I'm not spinning anything, this is literally what you just said. 25% of the group carries the rest = good; 60% of the group required to work = toxic. To me these numbers not only reek of being arbitrary and pertaining only to content for 40+ players, it also makes it look like you want to turn content into a free ride, whether that is your intention or not.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

4.) Superiority complex much?

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Lol. Sorry for trying to get you back on topic!

There are two separate conversations here. 1. "Purely mechanics-driven battles aren't fun for anybody" and 2. "Content that requires high levels of execution is too hard for most players." It's possible to have a purely mechanics driven battle that is so easy that everyone can beat it, but this would not solve one of the overarching problems. It's also possible to remove all mechanics and make a battle a gear faceroll, but this also does not solve one of the overarching problems. Your suggestions aren't doing many favors for EITHER side, and certainly not both.

Twintania is already much easier with the availability of i100/110 gear and the echo buff. She's just not "fun" to some people because they still have to respond to a number of unforgiving mechanics. Now, should 100% of players be able to kill Twin today? Some posters in this thread seem to think yes. Yoshi says no. If they wanted 100% of players to have downed Twintania today, they would have continued to increase the echo buff, which has been proven effective in increasing the number of players who kill her. So basically, what you're asking for here already exists. You just want it to happen faster than the Producer does.

Let me ask you this. Can you imagine people losing to Twin with a 500% echo buff? They'd pretty much have to be trying to lose, right? Now, would you want that much power bloat to be in the game already?

Instead of looking for ways to allow mainstream players to clear all content the day it's released, maybe it would be better to look for ways to make fights more fun for mainstream players without trivializing player skill and/or making victory RNG dependent, within the confines of the current battle system.

It boils down to

group 1: Boo content too hard is no content at all
group 2: Boo content too easy is no content at all

In the end it's WoW 2.0 in that it has the same directions and all the good and bad that comes with it. To appease all groups you appease none, and only good enough to keep people playing most of the time.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

It boils down to

group 1: Boo content too hard is no content at all
group 2: Boo content too easy is no content at all

In the end it's WoW 2.0 in that it has the same directions and all the good and bad that comes with it. To appease all groups you appease none, and only good enough to keep people playing most of the time.

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Yeah it's pretty depressing.

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Originally Posted by Xine

Put some thought this morning into being a bit more in-depth about the whole "how do you think randomized bosses should work"...

However, giving skills that will have a 5% chance of being used, has a less likely chance of being used again immediately after. So your chances of getting that instant-death skill twice in a row is not very likely, but that does not mean it will never happen. It can happen, and one day it will happen, whether it happens to you or not isn't the biggest problem here...

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Hi Xine,

Great writeup. :) I would note that in regards to your question above, it *definitely* is possible (and been done before in other games) to script in a fail-safe, so that a certain Attack (Instant Kill) can never be executed twice in a row (or whatever stipulation the developer wants). So you can certainly have something like a "5% Chance to use [Uber Attack]" *and* script it to never execute if it was just used (so no back-to-back accidents can happen). :)

I can say this much..the 1.xx battle system and fights did not feel scripted at ALL. Gear and skill meant quite a lot more then simple memorization in 1.23. Why they took what we had away for this..I'll never know.

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Originally Posted by Meier

I can say this much..the 1.xx battle system and fights did not feel scripted at ALL. Gear and skill meant quite a lot more then simple memorization in 1.23. Why they took what we had away for this..I'll never know.

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1.xx was the same for at least since the new team came in. Gear was relevant not because of the content itself necessarily, but because you needed any small "oomph" you could get to push content underneath the 17 minute mark.

Also, skill in fights like Ifrit was more towards knowing dealing with the system than the content itself. Things such as animation lock, latency, and crashes were definitely more of an issue than actually dealing with the mechanics itself. Like the game wasn't built for that type of content, but they put it in anyways.

Not holding a candle to ARR, because I have my own complaints, but 1.xx was definitely not great to deal with.

I have always disliked insta-death boss abilities in MMOs. It is simply a cop-out for lazy design. When it is difficult to design challenging fights with increasing gear level (meaning higher HP, DPS, etc) and player skill, lazy designers just throw in "death-touch" abilities.

If anyone remembers the old Everquest days, bosses would just randomly target players and "death-touch" them. The only difference in FFXIV is that the designers disguised the unpopular "death-touch" as avoidable Titan/Leviathan knockout abilities and Melusine petrification. Such abilities totally ignore gear level and character stats and eliminate players from the battle.

No matter how much you disguise the archaic "death-touch," you can't fool the player. Design innovative ways to challenge higher geared and skilled players without insta-killing them. Otherwise, people will catch on soon enough on just how lazy the boss fights are... as evidenced by this extremely long post from the OP.

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Originally Posted by Asuras

The only difference in FFXIV is that the designers disguised the unpopular "death-touch" as avoidable Titan/Leviathan knockout abilities and Melusine petrification.

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I much prefer the ones you can dodge with player skill than random any day. I feel that it cheapens an encounter when you're just able to outgear it.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Can someone explain to me why it's bad to have the ability to overgear content?

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Was reading back and picked up on this, I think it's a good opportunity to summarize the concepts at work here again.

First of all, it depends what you mean by "overgear content". It's already true that the content in this game becomes much easier with item level increases, so it's already possible to reduce difficulty by overgearing the content. So when people say they want to be more able to overgear content, the implication is that they want to be able to circumvent the challenge of a fight with gear (think killing Demon Wall before the hornets could spawn, back when they still did). Then, in the same breath, they say they want fights with more depth, more fun, more interaction, and more random play. To this I say, which is it? So far, no proposed solution addresses both of these desires. In fact, as far as I can tell every solution makes one of these problems or the other even worse.

The most popular suggestion is making fights "random". For one, this only creates the illusion of choice compared to the "scripted" battles we have now. You'll still react the same way to the same attack, you'll just be doing it in a different order. Additionally, this will make the battles harder for people who can't dodge/react to the current system where you literally know what is coming next. The only way to avoid this is to make failure less "punishing", and this is tied to the idea that gear should be the primary determining factor in victory. Now, you don't have to dodge. Just heal through it and do whatever you want. Suddenly, no depth, no challenge, no fun, no better off than we were before, just different for the sake of being different.

People have come up with some very creative ways to randomize fights. In my opinion, none of them actually solve the proposition of the OP and the competing interests of the different groups of players.

The OP also wants to reintroduce attempt lock-outs on content as opposed to the clear lock-outs we now have. While this may free up the developers to make battles less mechanics driven as the OP suggests, there are two issues. 1. People complain about attempt lock-outs just as much as they do about clear lock-outs. 2. Attempt lock-out systems worked because loot followed the rare drop system rather than our guaranteed drop system. This is another one of those ugly unintended consequences I keep bringing up.

Do you see now why it's not so simple? This idea of "Let me overgear content and let me do it NAO!" would solve one problem (casuals feeling left out). But it would also completely ignore another problem (recognizing player skill) while making yet another one worse (these battles are no fun).

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

When it took up to 10-25% of the group to carry the rest

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While I think those numbers are completely distorted to start with, you're harkening back to 40 person content; 10-25% of an 8 person group is basically 1 or 2 people. While I guess I can see avoiding drama as a noble goal on some level, you're basically asking for an environment where you're looking for nothing more than warm bodies for most content. Or warm bodies who are on different loot tables. That just doesn't sound like a particularly healthy or fun MMO to me. While we're on the subject of WoW comparisons - one of the larger criticisms as it became more 'accessible' was that server communities just kind of died as content became focused more and more on single player activities.

I dunno, feel free to call me an elitist, but I prefer content that rewards teamwork; as I keep going through this thread it just seems like the 'rope jump' isn't so much the complaint as the 'team' element.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

I much prefer the ones you can dodge with player skill than random any day. I feel that it cheapens an encounter when you're just able to outgear it.

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I disagree that player skill equates to memorizing boss fight mechanics. Part of the reward of getting advanced gear and levels is feeling powerful when going through older content. I certainly enjoy going back to starting zones and one-shotting level 2 and 3 mobs from time to time. I certainly see nothing wrong with that. When you outgear older content, you steam-roll through it. Of course, when designers make content with disguised "death-touch" abilities and phases that can be deadly when pushed (stronger DPS), it shows an element of laziness in the design. They did not want to account for gear level at all. It simply makes designing the fight more difficult. You have to do things the way it was scripted (albeit short-cuts or mechanic-cheats that players have developed).

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Originally Posted by gti443

I prefer content that rewards teamwork

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Take it as you will. All I see is teamwork at the cost of alienating and harassing others players for being part of a different demograph.

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Originally Posted by Asuras

I disagree that player skill equates to memorizing boss fight mechanics. Part of the reward of getting advanced gear and levels is feeling powerful when going through older content. I certainly enjoy going back to starting zones and one-shotting level 2 and 3 mobs from time to time. I certainly see nothing wrong with that. When you outgear older content, you steam-roll through it.

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Different cup of tea for different people I guess. Besides turn 9 phase 1, I don't think I memorize any fight's rotation. I memorize how to deal with each mechanics as it comes up. I always felt it cheapens the fight in older RPG when you can get so powerful you just massacre everything. For example, when I played Pokemon Blue for the first time, I ignore every single pokemon and just level my starter Squirtle into Blastoise. Sure it was fun one-shotting the Elite Four when my Blastoise was like level 100 (mind you Blastoise could learn Earthquake so I plowed through the Electric gym and use Normal type moves for Water type Pokemon) but it's not as fun as leveling different pokemons trying to anticipate different scenarios. Or more recently Disgaea. You can grind yourself, rebirth a couple times and be the strongest character ever then go through the story but what's the point in that? I surely don't appreciate it. If you ask me "then what's the point of getting stronger items and better yourself". Well it's to challenge harder fights, not to steam roll through easy ones.

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Originally Posted by gti443

While I think those numbers are completely distorted to start with, you're harkening back to 40 person content; 10-25% of an 8 person group is basically 1 or 2 people. While I guess I can see avoiding drama as a noble goal on some level, you're basically asking for an environment where you're looking for nothing more than warm bodies for most content. Or warm bodies who are on different loot tables. That just doesn't sound like a particularly healthy or fun MMO to me. While we're on the subject of WoW comparisons - one of the larger criticisms as it became more 'accessible' was that server communities just kind of died as content became focused more and more on single player activities.

I dunno, feel free to call me an elitist, but I prefer content that rewards teamwork; as I keep going through this thread it just seems like the 'rope jump' isn't so much the complaint as the 'team' element.

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THIS.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Take it as you will. All I see is teamwork at the cost of alienating and harassing others players for being part of a different demograph.

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2 short reasons this is flawed logic.

1. MMO MULTIPLAYER. Playing a MMO and complaining about TEAMS is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. And sadly has been harped on since the new generation of MMO players got access to the internet.

2. I like football. Tony Romo likes football. Do you see me crying the NFL doesn't let me play? Different demographics exist EVERYWHERE. You are no more entitled to raid just because you want to than I am to play for the NFL. Put in the time, effort, and energy into getting good at the game and become a raider if you want to raid. If you want all the perks with none of the effort. Tell me how that works out for you in life.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

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This isn't MLG so it's very contradicting treating it like if it was MLG.