EDIT: Deleted for...civility.
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08-05-2023, 01:37 PMRenathras
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08-05-2023, 02:13 PMForsakenRoe
just skip if your name is not RenThras, probably
Good to hear, unfortunately for you, 45s is probably still too low for the idea. I'd expect it (Med2) at 60s if anything, see, if we make it 30, you pretty much remove any reason to use Rapture. Now, this results in the whole Lily system inverting, and healing becomes 'Med2>Cure3 combo for AOE, Solace with lilies on tanks', which A: means the tanks are even more unkillable (since this healing would be on top of their selfsustain), and B: it completely kills the point of using Regen. Med1 (and Cure3 with no bloodlily build) would be there in those cases where you'd need to AOE heal even if it costs you damage. But again, I was spitballing, I'm not enamored with this idea anywayQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Yes, same, for some of them. And I put them in my post. Not all, but some of them you have there stand out as 'I remember putting that in there', like the one that got Lovely Branch/Adorable Sapling mixed up when asking for Feo Ul SCH glam, or the RERAISE! fella, I remember that one very wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Shoutout to the PLD's asking for Raise though. They'll be locked slot for prog, and as soon as prog's over they gotta throw away the shield and get the gunblade, cos that Raise is gonna put them 8% behind the others cos 'utility tax' or whatever
Now THIS is a rotation with some real chest hair, and it's now ended up having more buttons to think about than even mine! Oh no wait, I think it's equal, assuming you've left Dia off cos it's pruned in your rework. So it's similar to my thinking, but different in some regards. It's a lot more rigid and cyclical, whereas mine having the staggered timers of 12 and 15s would mean you can't build a 'block' of rotation in a sense, as yours can with '3G, 1H'. Still, if this was put in the game, I'd be more than satisfied I think (especially in AOE, you might want to tie getting the free Misery to the 'empowered holy/banish' buff, rather than the pseudo combo of 3H>1M, that's an alarming amount of AOE potential)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
You would have got alienated when they changed WHM from SB to SHB, you just didn't notice because the changes happened to the part of the class you didn't like. Kinda like if BRD lost it's songs and just became 'guy with bow', BRDs would hate it, but the people who want Ranger as a job would not be 'alienated' because the change aligns with what they want from the gameQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the first time we've seen all of these pitch points (and the rotation they'd lead to) in one place, no? I remember seeing your 3 Glares > 1 Superholy before a couple of times, but not the '3 Superholy > 1 Free Misery' I don't thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
And please don't be lumping us all together re: flexibility, I went back to my design and added stuff because of feedback from you specifically. Stuff like changing Protect from 'lowbob Aquaveil' to 'lowbob PI', and adding Nature Gauge build values to the non-lily GCD heals (something about 'healing resource built only via damage is not good for casuals' iirc). I can be flexible when I think the argument I'm being presented is convincing (Protect PI is a convincing argument), but if I think something's not good I'm not gonna be swayed
Honestly, same. 'DOT management' is probably one of the weakest aspects of my gameplay. Part of me probably would prefer it if WHM was full of Hard-CD GCDs ala Phlegma, such that EG: my reworked Dia is not a 12s DOT, but a 12s CD burst hit. In fact, it's 'inspiration'/older brother, Holy Priest, does exactly this, with Holy Words lowering CDs on things so there's interplay. Akin to 'Casting Stone or Holy advances the CD on Assize by 1 second' in our terms. And that could be a cool design, but it's a bit of a radical overhaul to add that kind of thing, so it'd have to be a 'AST/DRG rework' kind of announcement. But as for DOTs, I also acknowledge that A: WHM's always had a DOT and removing it is kinda not great, B: Banish (or in your case, Assize-GCD) already fills that role (and having two would lead at least one person to say 'why not combine them' in a reddit post), and C: I can appreciate the idea of 'multidotting' being a way to express skill in certain situations, and I wouldn't want to remove that (Eg doublechecking my design brief potencies, it's better to multidot 2 targets, Holy becomes better than Glare at 3 but multidotting all 3 is still better (430 from DOT vs total of 420 from Holy), and then straight Holy becomes better at 4+. Banish remains part of the AOE at any target count)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Which leads us to... SGE, if you can believe that. A new healer, focused on 'do damage > cause healing', it'd have been the perfect time to add a healer that does not have a DOT. Instead, they could have had Eukrasian Dosis/E.Phlegma have unique effects that play into the damage-healer archetype more, Toxicon could actually do something other than be 'Ruin 2 with terms and conditions attached', etc. If it weren't a bloody shield healer (or the split didn't exist), the first thing that comes to mind (and I'm about to go to bed so it's not exactly functional atm) is that E.Dosis could apply a small regen to the Kardion target (same damage potency as regular Dosis, higher MP cost so you can't just spam it), and E.Phlegma could be... idk, some AOE shielding emanating from the Kardion target (Prognosis still exists for those times where Phlegma did not line up with the raidwide).
DOTs can be cool design. But I don't think they're cool design when A: everyone has one, and B: everyone has one. SGE didn't really need one, if anything it feels like it was just thrown on there to try and justify Eukrasia being a button a bit more. I'd also consider removing Combust IF! and only if, said removal is what has to be done in order to focus the class more on it's buffing aspects. Like, if we're playing 'would you press the button' and it's 'unique card effects like SB, ...BUT... Combust is die', personally I'm slamming that button frame 1, and I'm not stopping to think. They removed all the Time Magic stuff so the chances of 'AST manipulates it's DOT with its abilities' is pretty dead, and that was the saving grace for Combust's continued existence IMO. Axe it and replace it with something more interesting, something to do with the cards like a Minor Arcana rework (cough). SCH can have 3 DOTS again cos that's it's schtick, and WHM can have just one short one, so it feels bursty and strong
By the way, I do hope you two stop going in circles soon, I would quite like it if we could see less of the word 'inflexibility' and more of things like potency balancing or cooldown tweaking, since the former has zero chance of consensus and the latter has... well, not much chance, but it's at least higher than zero% right
thank in advance -
08-05-2023, 02:17 PMty_taurusIf that's true, then why have you chosen to die on the hill of one healer must not change at all? Why not try and find a middle ground with a simple healer that's forgiving to the beginner, rewards skilled gameplay for the veteran, and doesn't spent too much time spamming any one action? Why not work with everyone rather than against? You don't do that. You take the stance of we either accept leaving one healer unchanged, or you make our lives a living nightmare with walls of text and angry tirades. Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Except we've beaten that dead horse as well. Adding more reasons to heal is great, but the amount of required healing you'd need to add to all forms of content, including things like dungeons and somehow solo gameplay, is so severe that it would annihilate the casual player base. But if you think that's the better option, then I have a request for you: Let's take a dungeon boss, say the first boss of Aetherfont: Lyngbakr. It's roughly a 4 minute fight. Why don't you show off how you'd rework that fight to have enough damage to force any healer of any skill level to cast more healing spells than they attack? You don't have to plan out the full 4 minutes. Show me what that fight looks like with a Sage relying more on Prognosis and Eukrasian Prognosis than Dosis III, and defend why that is manageable for the average player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Well I will continue to have my "Inflexible" stance of being completely open to discussion about different concepts of how to improve healer design. You know, a really inflexible stance to have, being open to so many ideas and all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I've tried many times now to move onto a normal conversation, but you've actively ignored that each and every time. You are the one stopping us from moving on. How many times have I said I want to move onto talking about using Paladin as a source of inspiration for your simple healer design on White Mage? I have wanted to talk about finding a middle ground on the simple healer. Can we move onto that conversation? Or will there be another wall of text about everything except the one thing that can progress that discussion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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08-05-2023, 02:49 PMForsakenRoeJust cos I think it'd be super funny, I'll throw my sleep-deprived idea in: you know whenever lightning AOEs start to telegraph, it does something like a spin or a groundpunch to generate that lightning?Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Proximity damage. On every single time he does it. With it dealing up to 100% of your max HP (assuming you are in min ilvl gear) if you're inside his target circle, and sharply decreasing by 10% for each 1y you are away from him, to a minimum of 40% (max melee would put you 2y away, so you'd be taking 80% per slam)
Not a good solution, or elegant, or balanced (as you gear, the damage would become more and more ignoreable, as with any damage in this game). But it'd be really, really funny to see it, I think. Plenty of less-hardcore healers would be torn apart like paper in the rain as they try to keep up with it, and it'd probably become Exhibit A for 'why we probably shouldn't be touching HPS requirements in content too much'
edit: damn, too tired, thought you said second boss, uhhh, the exploding spikes do falloff damage, him relocating with any jumps has falloff damage, his halfroom cleave bounces off of spikes/you can LOS it with spikes, idk that guy's kinda hard to do anything with -
08-05-2023, 03:09 PMRenathrasMedica 2 - I was thinking Soil/Kerachole. SCH and SGE have those every 30 sec while also having Indom/Ixo. In theory, both can also get more resources than WHM (Rhizo/Dissipation), but I dunno. Could also make Medica 2 cost a Lily I guess. I've been asking for a Lily spender that's a HoT for a while. I think the CD is more based on the potency than anything. If we're taking something that can be spammed and putting a CD on it, and presumably it still has the cast time and MP cost (so akin to Pneuma/Macrocosmos, I guess?), I dunno, I feel like 30 would be fair, though 60 would be the other logical choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Rotations - I know I've proposed a couple versions of the Glare/Holy one before, and I know I proposed something for the AOE rotation before, though I don't remember what (it might have just been every fourth Holy was empowered or something, it's been a while). I've proposed Assize with a CD before, but usually as a nosequeter in other discussions. I distinctly remember saying I like Plegma I just wish it was a ranged attack (instead of "near melee"), and Assize is due to its radius. I also pointed out before I'd rather have a GCD with a CD than a DoT. I believe I have proposed each of these before, at least in some form, just not all together, probably? I also do prefer short block rotations (I like that about SMN, and I like that about PLD as well) better than irregular rotations of off-timer DoTs. Like if you have a 15 sec and 21 sec duration DoT, they constantly drift around each other. Vs Glare Glare Glare Holy, which will be consistent. I find a similar(ish) situation with PLD vs GNB. Not the BEST example (GNB is somewhat rigid as well with Gnashing timings), but maybe you get what I mean. PLD doesn't care what part of its rotation its on when it goes into Requiescat other than using a HS in it, GNB is more concerned and has to do some more work to avoid drift and stuff like that. The other thing is I already feel like we have enough buttons, so my ideas, you might note, generally don't add any. You could do all of the things I listed at once, and it wouldn't add a single hotbar slot, yet would make a more varied rotation at the same time.
Paladins - Yeah, who knows? One that I saw that would be a potential is the person that suggested PLD Raise and Hallowed Ground share a CD. In that sense, it's basically a once per fight (twice in long fight) choice, and it's one or the other. So in prog, you'd probably use the Raise more, but in farm, you'd use Hallowed. And PLD already does less damage than the other tanks. I can't imagine they'd have it do 8% less, but it's hard to say. The Dev teams balance is decided by a Chaotic Neutral Wild Mage more often than not, I think.
...that said...I legit just forgot Dia in those examples. I wasn't actually suggesting to remove Dia. Not that I'd be upset removing Dia/a DoT, mind you, but that wasn't actually intentional.
Lumping People - Oh, don't mistake me; that comment was entirely to Ty along with my ire at the moment (in case there was ANY ambiguity on that point).
DoTs - Honestly, I don't terribly HATE them (I mean...I do, but...), there are cases where I find them engaging. The trick is they actually have to have a connection to the kit. Like my SCH proposal where the DoTs generated Faerie Gauge, which could be used for Aetherpact (Lustrate) or Energy Drains. That interaction is interesting to me. Bane and Fester interaction is pretty meh - it IS interaction...but really bland "increases damage" (Fester was only correctly used with all your DoTs up anyway, as was Bane, and both did nothing but increase your damage output...which is boring) - but I think something like giving you extra uses of your other tools, especially my SCH mockup where you can choose to turn it into healing or damage, and it gives you additional abilities to use (even just dumping them on ED is more interesting than Bane actually reducing non-Broil casts and Fester being a throwaway oGCD you used 2-3x and then...didn't for another minute until AF came off CD), which I find more fun, personally.
SGE - I agree on the DoT thing there. RDM has no DoT. SMN has no DoT. SGE could have been built to have a rotation similar to either of those in complexity, no DoT needed. The irony to me is that the Devs seem like they want to reduce DoTs over time...but then make sure every single healer Job has one, and every party has at least two Healers, so would then be guaranteed at least two DoTs. I get Sabezy's argument, but it's just weird to me. Heck, they could have made Eukrasia Dosis the Ruin 2. That would have made it distinct from Dosis while also giving SGE a movement tool like Ruin 2, but which was also different than Ruin 2 since you need the 1 sec CD Eukrasia first, making it only good for single weaves so a side grade of Dosis for use when you need to move. Might not get much use due to Icarus, but it'd be more different than just another DoT. Could also have then opened up Toxicon to be...something better.
AST - I've never thought of AST as a Time Mage. I know a lot of people have because of Gravity magic and Time Dilation, but when I think Time Mage, I think damage dealing support with the spells Haste, Slow, and Stop (even if most things are immune to Stop), probably a damage over time spell, and some utility abilities like Reflect and Regen. Basically the FFTactics Time Mage. And I really love the FF7 and FF8 animations on the Haste and Slow spells (with the clocks). Add to that Comet, Demi (Gravity, though usually as a single target spell), and possibly Meteor. AST has...well...Regen. That's all of that which AST has. Extending buffs isn't strictly a Time Mage thing (I'm not sure any version of Time Mage has ever had such an ability directly; some have had support abilities that increase the durations of HoTs/enhancement spells, but that's passive not an active thing), and they haven't traditionally been healers as far as I can recall. I know some people will die on that hill, but I just can't ever agree to it. Then again, Dark Knight has often been a damage dealer instead (though FF11...), but then again again, it's also named Dark Knight, AST isn't named Time Mage, so...
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Regarding "Inflexible" - At the risk of sounding like a child, Ty literally started it. He decided that was a thing to quite a dictionary definition of, call me it, and has been doing so in (I think?) every one of his posts replying to me since then for the last two days.
He does this fairly often. Comes up with an insult (which almost always applies to him more than it does me and is easy to debunk it even applies to me), then calls me it for days on end in most every reply, wielding it like a linguistic cudgel. It's an obnoxious thing that pseudo-intellectuals do to talk down at people they think are their lessers. Thing is, I'm not an unintelligent person, so it doesn't go over my head. In fact, intellectually bullying probably makes me madder than most people for a very specific reason. (Not to go into details, but I was very bright as a kid and my older brother had learning problems. To give you an idea of my insight, around age 6 I realized I was learning things in school and they came to me so easily, but the exact same concepts were very difficult for him to pick up. It made me realize I did nothing to gain my intellect, I just had it without having to earn it, and so I resolved then to never look down on people like him or think myself better since I hadn't done anything to earn it. One of the things in life that pisses me off more than anything else is an "intellectual" trying to bully people with their "betterness", which often involves wielding language and vocabulary against people. I'm not always perfect in it, but I really don't look down on other people due to intellect or lack thereof. I may look down on them for OTHER reasons, but not that.)
But yes, when he stops doing that, I'm cool with calm conversation. I try to engage in it all the time until he mouths off with his stupid snark and insults (and for some reason, people seem to think rampant, clearly meanspirited and disruptive snark is somehow acceptable), which creates a spiral because he'll start it, I'll react heated, he'll get mad at me being heated (despite him being the cause of it) and be even more dickish, and it creates a feedback loop until I get mad enough I step away (Ty never apologizes, even when dead to rights wrong about something regarding me; always claims he has no reason to due to something or other to give him an out), and then when I come back cooled off, I get into other conversations and things go fine until he gets on his insult cudgel thing again. I'm more than willing to engage in civil conversation and not tit-for-tat. It's why I get so annoyed with people attacking me so often, because all it does is break down any productive - or even cordial - conversations.
...but...I will try to ignore his posts that are doing that. TRY.
I'm going to start by ignoring his post right below yours to try and move onto a normal conversation, something he's actively ignored thus far, and keeps up with his insults and snark, preventing us from moving on. But maybe he'll listen to you if not to me, and if I ignore him until he stops egging me on, he won't be able to keep egging me on if someone like you will ask him nicely to stop after a few pages of it. Maybe. <_< -
08-05-2023, 03:13 PMRenathras
...c'mon Ren...be strong.
I read the first line...god...damnit.... >_<
I won't reply, I mean, I guess this is a reply, but I won't rebut/retor...but I WILL post this:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6242033
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6239602Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
EDIT:Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Oh hey, Roe! Look at that, I KINDA did propose the AOE change before, too. I had forgotten about that thread (just happened to think I HAD made a WHM proposal thread and went looking for it). I didn't do it as a Dark Arts (but I've leveled DRK from like 30-60 since that thread and read more about its abilities), but I proposed something vaguely similar to it.
So I have, indeed, made all of those proposals, other than maybe the Assize one, before. And I think I did make the Assize one before as well. -
08-05-2023, 04:15 PMty_taurusIf you want to appear as the better person, maybe don't do what you're trying to accuse me of doing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
So let's talk about your two examples. In both cases, you immediately shoot down your own ideas in your initial posts. "Those are the changes. I know everyone will hate them...though perhaps not. You guys do surprise me from time to time, and this is more complex than most of my proposals." "Now, proceed to hate away and tell me how these changes would somehow dumb down the game (seriously, HOW??) and make things worse, and how current WHM is far more nuanced, high skill ceiling, etc than this lobotomized (HOW??) baby version would be." Both of these lines come across as snide and insincere, not great ways to try and rally people to want to work with you. But they also make it seem like you aren't really invested in your own ideas either, which makes it hard to want to engage with that idea if you aren't even sold on it. You also never bring up these ideas after the fact or ask for input to work on them as a team. You've stated multiple times that your "leave one alone" argument seems to be your exclusive stance.
You already like White Mage, it's the one healer available immediately at level 1, and it makes sense for it to be a beginner-friendly healer, so I'm more interested in talking about it than Scholar who came from a place of being more involved and complex, and also is born from a DPS and strikes me as a very poor choice in healer to shoot for this objective with.
Between Diacloud and Triple Glare into Holy, the later is already something I am fine with and used in the... wait for it... drum roll please... Paladin inspired White Mage idea, and a concept I've grown really fond of. I've spent more time thinking about that in the past and I'll share the very simple breakdown:
Spark - Single target damage; instant cast; 250 potency. Grants 1 Glint to a max of 3.
- The new filler spell
Tempest - AoE damage around your target; 2.5 second cast; 150 potency. Grants 1 Absolution (max 3). If you have 3 Glints, this spell hits twice.
- The first part of your AoE "Combo" but is also your single target finisher.
Glare III - Single target damage; 1.5 second cast; 300 potency. If you have 1 Absolution, this spell hits twice.
- Upgraded to a heavier nuke. You don't need Absolution to cast, but you will not get the second hit.
Dia - AoE damage around your target; instant cast; 200 potency. If you have 1 Absolution, inflicts 3 stacks of Dia on the first target and 1 stack of Dia on all other targets (each target can have up to 5). When you hit a target with the Glare, Dia, or Ablution spells, a Dia stack is consumed dealing 200 potency damage.
- The DoT is removed in place of stacks you detonate. This means there's no more timing element--no need to reapply Dia right as its falling off. It functions similarly to a DoT but is much more forgiving on time. Stacks do not fade away as well so if you apply it before a boss phase changes, you also aren't losing damage like you would with a DoT. And that means no hard DoT, which you would enjoy.
Ablution - AoE damage around your target; 1.5 second cast; 175 potency on the first target and 60% less on all other enemies. Grants 40 seconds of Flow (to a max of 70 seconds). If you have 1 Absolution, this spell hits 3 times.
- Starts out as the water spell. Flow grants 5% increased damage and increased healing, 10 potency MP regen as long as you keep up the buff, and allows lilies to generate. Works similarly to Warrior's buff as you can extend the duration before the buff falls off, something you also mentioned liking.
Afflatus Misery - AoE damage around your target; instant cast; 1150 potency on the first target and 50% less on all other enemies. Costs 1 Blood Lily. Grants 1 Absolution. Has a 20 second cooldown on the GCD.
- Adjusted to effectively substitute your Spark > Tempest "Combo" (4 casts totaling 1150 potency and grants you that Absolution from Tempest). You can store 2 Blood Lilies, which is why the cooldown is added.
Holy III - AoE damage around self with a potency of 300 for the first enemy and 50% less for remaining enemies. Stuns for 4 seconds. OGCD on a 60 second cooldown with 2 charges.
- Not 100% sold on this, but wanted Holy to feel more special than an AoE spam since it's supposed to be White Mage's grand spell in other final fantasy games.
Germinate - Nourishes the Blood Lily; instant cast; GCD action that causes the GCD to have a 4 second recast timer. When cast out of combat, grants 60 seconds of Flow. When cast in combat, grants 20 seconds of Flow.
- The 4 second recast timer applies to all spells (the same as Six-Sided Star on Monk). Not suited for combat use, but useful for phase changes or when no enemy is targetable.
TL;DR: Your normal gameplay involves Spark > Spark > Spark > Tempest, and from there, you store Absolutions on Dia for a softer form of damage over time, Ablution for buff management, and Glare for damage. This is slightly more complex than Paladin's 1-2-3 into Atonement, but there is no Goring Blade, only 1 OGCD with charges, no Holy spirit/circle, and no Confiteor combo. You just have Afflatus Misery on the side to occasionally interrupt this gameplay. It's very simple and easy to manage as all the resources are very gentle (long buff duration, can be extended, stacks instead of a duration on Dia, etc)
Single target vs AoE situations:
Single Target: Spark x3 > Tempest > 1 Absolution for Glare/Dia/Ablution
AoE: Tempest > 1 Absolution for Dia/Ablution
Here's a visual mockup of the flow:
https://i.imgur.com/k22LvY9.jpg
I feel like that captures a lot of things you specifically have referenced liking or not liking. -
08-05-2023, 04:41 PMRenathrasThat's how much I read.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Please try again. -
08-05-2023, 04:46 PMty_taurusOh yeah. I'm definitely the childish one in this exchange.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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08-05-2023, 04:51 PMRenathras....Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
/sigh
Roe, I'll let you handle this one. I (obviously) don't know how to deal with a person who sees me posting I'm trying to not get into tit-for-tats, after he posted a tit-for-tat attack post on me (while saying he was trying to calm things down), and then response to a post directly showing him wrong (his claim I've never offered compromises in terms of adding complexity) with not an apology but rather an insult, starting that post off on the very wrong foot with with "If you want to appear as the better person...", then when I point out that's all I read, which should indicate to him "Oh gee, maybe I shouldn't start off my CONCILIATORY POST with an insult...", responds by calling me childish.
So...I'll let you handle it. Have fun with that.