Tired of Zenos (spoilers)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think base shb was pretty good, my main gripe being ti was advertised as this dark gritty expansion where we face our strongest foes yet, but the protag side faces no consequences at all. If this is whats gonna happen in Endwalker as well, i dont see it being very popular.

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Nah, I don't think people who want bad things to happen to the protagonist's side is a majority of the fandom. In fact, Yoshida talked about the theme of the ending being that of hope and all that good stuff and why paladin was chosen as the job theme in contrast to the world ending scenario the bad guys are seemingly trying to achieve.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Nah, I don't think people who want bad things to happen to the protagonist's side is a majority of the fandom. In fact, Yoshida talked about the theme of the ending being that of hope and all that good stuff and why paladin was chosen as the job theme in contrast to the world ending scenario the bad guys are seemingly trying to achieve.

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There's plenty of people who are fine with consequences happening to the protagonists, especially with how self righteous they end up getting at times.

Incidentally, the original theme of the game - much like the Ivalice games - happened to be grit and realism. It was certainly the case back in ARR and HW. It just so happened that, like so many other things, a very vocal portion of the community learned that if they take to social media and complain very loudly, such things tend to be dialed back by the writers.

The game has also never been about 'good guys' and 'bad guys' according to the writers themselves. There's rare exceptions, such as Zenos, but pretty much every other major antagonist has been sympathetic in some manner with understandable goals.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

There's plenty of people who are fine with consequences happening to the protagonists, especially with how self righteous they end up getting at times.

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I agree that there will be those people. I was responding to the statement on whether no consequence would be popular.

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Incidentally, the original theme of the game - much like the Ivalice games - happened to be grit and realism. It was certainly the case back in ARR and HW. It just so happened that, like so many other things, a very vocal portion of the community learned that if they take to social media and complain very loudly, such things tend to be dialed back by the writers.

The game has also never been about 'good guys' and 'bad guys' according to the writers themselves. There's rare exceptions, such as Zenos, but pretty much every other major antagonist has been sympathetic in some manner with understandable goals.

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I think there's a difference between someone being a bad guy and someone being a bad guy for reasons we can understand (or whatever word you want to use, if you get my meaning). I think none of the other antagonists are disqualified from being bad people just because of any sympathetic quality they may engender. The WoL can be sad while still killing them anyway because they are bad.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I agree that there will be those people. I was responding to the statement on whether no consequence would be popular.

I think there's a difference between someone being a bad guy and someone being a bad guy for reasons we can understand (or whatever word you want to use, if you get my meaning). I think none of the other antagonists are disqualified from being bad people just because of any sympathetic quality they may engender. The WoL can be sad while still killing them anyway because they are bad.

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The devs themselves say it’s a matter of perspective. It’s not black and white who’s bad or who’s good. If that was the case, WoL is bad because of how many people and creatures they kill.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The devs themselves say it’s a matter of perspective. It’s not black and white who’s bad or who’s good. If that was the case, WoL is bad because of how many people and creatures they kill.

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If it's a matter of perspective, then we play as the WoL. So the WoL's perspective is ours.

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Originally Posted by linayar

If it's a matter of perspective, then we play as the WoL. So the WoL's perspective is ours.

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Not necessarily. We play the role of one particular character in the story, though that doesn't mean that they're always correct, worthy of praise or even likable. The sheer amount of innocent creatures and actual people slain at the Warrior of Light's hands for very little reason beyond being paid to do so doesn't make the character particularly heroic in my eyes.

You're free to think as much, of course - but the story is written in such a manner as to account for different perspectives and I guarantee that if the story wasn't an on rails experience and instead allowed for different factions/plot resolutions then quite a lot of people would pick different paths.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Not necessarily. We play the role of one particular character in the story, though that doesn't mean that they're always correct, worthy of praise or even likable. The sheer amount of innocent creatures and actual people slain at the Warrior of Light's hands for very little reason beyond being paid to do so doesn't make the character particularly heroic in my eyes.

You're free to think as much, of course - but the story is written in such a manner as to account for different perspectives and I guarantee that if the story wasn't an on rails experience and instead allowed for different factions/plot resolutions then quite a lot of people would pick different paths.

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I'm not saying you have to agree with all of (or even many of) the WoL's actions. I certainly don't. But it's undeniable that the WoL is the hero of the story. And yes, heroes do not mean that they meet all standards of morality that people may have.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I'm not saying you have to agree with all of (or even many of) the WoL's actions. I certainly don't. But it's undeniable that the WoL is the hero of the story. And yes, heroes do not mean that they meet all standards of morality that people may have.

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Protagonist is a better word. Not hero, as many of their deeds aren’t heroic. Protag just means they’re the main character whether they’re good or bad.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Protagonist is a better word. Not hero, as many of their deeds aren’t heroic. Protag just means they’re the main character whether they’re good or bad.

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The WoL is indeed the protagonist, but he is also a hero. It's obvious with how they present the WoL's effect on other people, from groups of people rallying around him to individuals having a case of hero worhip on the WoL.

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Originally Posted by linayar

The WoL is indeed the protagonist, but he is also a hero. It's obvious with how they present the WoL's effect on other people, from groups of people rallying around him to individuals having a case of hero worhip on the WoL.

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As others have said to you, not everything has to be codified into good or evil.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

That's not neccessarily true either. It doesn't have to be black or white, good or evil.

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