Concerns about " Getting rid of unused and ineffective actions"

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Something like Leg Sweep could have its damage component removed, so it's only used when something needs to be stunned. That said, my opinion would be to remove the damage component of all stuns (minus Holy), and then make stunning bosses more important again.

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I agree that Leg Sweep should deal no damage, but the stun thing really needs to be reworked. I've been complaining about this since beta, but jobs should have interrupts rather than stuns, especially since stuns lead to immunity. You'd otherwise have to make bosses that reset themselves the way HM Ifrit did in order to mostly avoid immunity getting in the way of a stun rotation (and even then all it took was one guy spamming Shoulder Tackle/Leg Sweep to ruin things).

An alternative would be to sort of PvP-mode boss mobs by making all stuns last .5/1 second on bosses, but making it impossible for a boss to build immunity.

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Originally Posted by Rikku1987

But even more important is casttime, T1 is too fast at nowadays 13xx spellspeed... while T3 is really slow -> T2 is perfect for that (if your mana can handle it). Some BLMs use ice1 to fill that time but ice 1 is such a joke on bosses you could also just wait a second and do nothing instead :D )

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True. I only use Bliz 1 to get myself out of a bad situation when I flub a flare rotation and have no mana. But surely the Heavy effect must be useful for SOMETHING in this game?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I agree that Leg Sweep should deal no damage, but the stun thing really needs to be reworked. I've been complaining about this since beta, but jobs should have interrupts rather than stuns, especially since stuns lead to immunity. You'd otherwise have to make bosses that reset themselves the way HM Ifrit did in order to mostly avoid immunity getting in the way of a stun rotation (and even then all it took was one guy spamming Shoulder Tackle/Leg Sweep to ruin things).

An alternative would be to sort of PvP-mode boss mobs by making all stuns last .5/1 second on bosses, but making it impossible for a boss to build immunity.

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It has always seemed weird to me that whereas Silence has no DR cap, half of all melee have no equivalent uncapped 'interrupt' regularly available. I don't mind in that in those cases where the Silence can seem superior on bosses who can't be stunned anyways, but as a typical toolkit part that just seems... off. (Not that I'd want to spend an extra key just on that function, and sometimes where the need to save stuns exceeds the weight of damage output over time, that DR mechanic, including the last infinitesimally small (interrupt) stun, can be kind of interesting.)

Btw, weren't the A4 legs technically stunnable only while casting, as not to cap their DRs beforehand on a DPS-intensive fight? More of that concept might work as well.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It has always seemed weird to me that whereas Silence has no DR cap, half of all melee have no equivalent uncapped 'interrupt' regularly available. I don't mind in that in those cases where the Silence can seem superior on bosses who can't be stunned anyways, but as a typical toolkit part that just seems... off. (Not that I'd want to spend an extra key just on that function, and sometimes where the need to save stuns exceeds the weight of damage output over time, that DR mechanic, including the last infinitesimally small (interrupt) stun, can be kind of interesting.)

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I'd say HM Ifrit failed to teach people to decide when to save stuns for interrupts as opposed to just DPSing, so at this point you'd have to make some heavy-handed changes to skills like Leg Sweep if you wanted to make interrupts a thing in encounters for 4.0. Removing damage and redesigning the skills may make gameplay less "interesting", but at least DPS would have no excuse to not partake in an interrupt rotation. Bonus being that tryhards wouldn't have the opportunity to screw things up for the other 3/7 people in the group.

I don't think they will get rid of many skills at all, it's more about revamping them and stepping a bit away from the cross class system.


Lv. 01 Heavy Swing
Lv. 02 Foresight
Lv. 04 Skull Sunder
Lv. 06 Fracture
Lv. 08 Bloodbath
Lv. 10 Brutal Swing
Lv. 10 Role base defensive Action (Covalecenz, Featherfoot, Second Wind, Mantra)
Lv. 12 Overpower
Lv. 15 Tomahawk
Lv. 15 Role base emnity Action (Provoce, Flash(?), something new?, Savage Blade with optional rotational requirements for WAR/DRK?!)
Lv. 18 Maim
Lv. 20 Role base defensive Action (as above)
Lv. 22 Berserk
Lv. 25 Role base offensive Action (Internal Release, something new with Slashing debuff (though only interesting for PLD/DRK maybe), Haymaker (changed/buffefd), Mercy Stroke, Fracture (untraited, but with more potency))
Lv. 26 Mercy Stroke
Lv. 30 Butcher's Block
Lv. 30 Role base emnity Action (as above)
Lv. 30 Defiance
Lv. 34 Thrill of Battle
Lv. 35 Inner Beast
Lv. 38 Storm's Path
Lv. 40 Unchained
Lv. 42 Holmgang
Lv. 45 Steel Cyclone
Lv. 46 Vengeance
Lv. 50 Storm's Eye
Lv. 50 Infuriate
Lv. 52 Deliverance
Lv. 54 Fell Cleave
Lv. 56 Raw Intuition
Lv. 58 Equilibrium
Lv. 60 Decimate


Plus revamps, but basically I expect something like this, with a bit more than 5 minutes invested for thinking about it like I did.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

I don't think they will get rid of many skills at all, it's more about revamping them and stepping a bit away from the cross class system.

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If we're going to keep getting new skills then yes we're going to need to prune a few and maybe more than a few. A few of the "maintenance" buffs as I call them could certainly stand to go away, for example, I've said this for a while now but if Heavy Thrust, Power Surge, Straight Shot, and Hot Shot were removed as an example, nothing of value would be lost. I know about the Straighter Shot proc effect, but I really don't think it's necessary if the numbers are adjusted correctly. Another example for Drg, Brd, and Mch is they have Ring Of Thorns/Doomspike, Wide Volley/Quick Nock, and Spread Shot/Grenado Shot respectively, do those classes really need to have 2 different AoE spells? I say no, no they do not. Pick one and let the player adjust to the right positioning for when to use each.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

. Pick one and let the player adjust to the right positioning for when to use each.

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power surge is great the others i agree on, I personally dont see job skills being pruned but added to the ideas of the list, i would say probably flash will be taken out, fracture and skull sunder and savage blade may definately go, and be put into dps xc if at all(flash gone forever probably) relevant choices would be to put second wind on all tanks, keen flurry maybe even featherfoot, mantra as a toss up and maybe retooled for ranged physical only(mnk utility though so it may just be a mnk skill), life surge probably taken off lnc and made for melee dps...stuff like this honestly.

edits: why i saw flash is because it only benefits warrior in niche situations and we all know theyre trying to reduce war's power without crippling it completely was my reasoning its excessively useless on drk, esp based on cost vs unleash and doesnt need to be a xc skill at all

also leave my doomspike alone! its my favorite lnc skill!

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

: why i saw flash is because it only benefits warrior in niche situations and we all know theyre trying to reduce war's power without crippling it completely was my reasoning its excessively useless on drk

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Flash is very useful on paladin though. It's there primary enmity generator for groups pulls. It's far for being a useless skill so it's unlikely to be one they'll get rid of.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Flash is very useful on paladin though. It's there primary enmity generator for groups pulls. It's far for being a useless skill so it's unlikely to be one they'll get rid of.

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I think Flash, Unleash, and whatever the WAR class has AoE enmity generation would be classified as a vital tanking skill, so it'd qualify for the tanking role cross-class skill pool. But, I think it should be characterized for each class, sort of like how the Tank's limit Break 3 all do roughly the same thing, but the graphics and appearance are different.

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Originally Posted by Pondera

I think Flash, Unleash, and whatever the WAR class has AoE enmity generation would be classified as a vital tanking skill, so it'd qualify for the tanking role cross-class skill pool. But, I think it should be characterized for each class, sort of like how the Tank's limit Break 3 all do roughly the same thing, but the graphics and appearance are different.

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Overpower. And this is already the case (Flash not being a Damage spell aside). They are already learned at the same level, have the same effect and are already different for each Job (Overpower is a Cleave and a Weaponskill, Flash does no Damage and Unleash has a trait that alows another spell to proc it likr Fire II the Thunder SPells, Cire II, Cure III and Benefic II)