Marriage feedback [inofficial Poll]

I do want same sex marriage...
Always wanna be a Miqo'te male who will be married with Roegadyn male! Or Elezen male...
P.S. Lalafel is asom too ^^

That's all about era when they have all those samurai wars and so on.
Because in that time homosexuality was not a crime but "a way of warrior". Something like women never can trully understand a warrior...
Something like that if i recall correctly.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

i took a look at that post....
So in other words, magical AIDS? Targeted specifically against homosexual attraction? There no way in hell the PR team could spin that one that wouldn't be seen as intolerant and blind.

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Hmm... I didn't even see the relation until you said it. Goes to show that whatever you can think of, nature has probably already thought of it first. >.<

I think the subject of same sex marriage is touchy, maybe too touchy for SE at the time since for one they originate from japan where its not allowed, and they have to think of it from a business perspective, nobody has an issue with straight marriage but there is a big number of people who aren't for same sex marriage.

I believe asking for it at the time is on the same magnitude of asking for polygamous marriage, which is ok in some places and not so accepted in others.

I voted yes and I'm glad that the yes votes outnumber the no votes 4 to 1.

Thinking back to how EA handled this... it's really easy to handle homosexual content and get away with it. There really isn't much risk at all unless you completely mess up a blog post advertising upcoming support for it. The best way to go about it, is to do what Skyrim did and just say "yeah we support it" and just be done with it. Most of the gaming community seems to be for it or just doesn't care either way, so supporting it will no doubt be in their favor. So, if it was added, I think that it would go like this:

1. People who feel strongly for it will probably have more of an interest in the game and SE.

2. People who support, but not very strongly will still be happy and it will probably have a positive impact on sales due to the increased publicity it brings.

3. People who don't care either way will still be hearing more about SE and FF14 due to news articles reporting on it. This will create more publicity and most likely sales.

4. People who are against it, but not strongly against it will still receive more information about the game and it will most likely not impact sales.

5. People who are strongly against it will hear about it, and whether or not they are players, it may impact whether they keep playing or not. But, there will always be those who will keep playing despite being against it.

I think that this little spectrum here is pretty accurate and that no matter what they do, it will work in their favor. Especially with how much publicity the topic of same-sex relationships is getting these days.

Just pump something out, and let the media know. Kotaku and other sites will post up articles talking about it and how they are thankful for it, etc. I guarantee it will work in their favor, much like it did for EA, despite their bad rep as a company altogether.

http://kotaku.com/5888909/why-a-vide...o-be-a-gay-man
http://kotaku.com/5899246/homophobes...me+sex-romance
http://kotaku.com/5802122/you-wont-k...-mass-effect-3
http://www.webpronews.com/swtor-the-...verage-2012-02
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10797_3-57...tar-wars-game/
http://www.joystiq.com/2011/08/25/sk...sex-marriages/

And for the not so Western part of the world...
http://kotaku.com/5868301/skyrim-japan-likes-you
http://www.computerandvideogames.com...e-chart-debut/
http://kotaku.com/5272178/japanese-g...u-might-expect

These are just some example articles, out of the many hundreds out there on this topic that I'm posting just to show that gamers just don't care enough to not buy games because of this. I know these games are mostly popular in the Western world, but the Western world usually counts for an enormous proportion of sales. If you read through the comments on these articles, or even topics about this on their own forums, you will see that people who speak out for it, are for the most part in favor of it. And either way, publicity is publicity.

I can;t help but dream they add this AND it becomes a big press thing. The idea of less prejudice bigots in the game, such a lovely picture =.=

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Damn you know how to let a propsal down - hanging on the edge of my chair for the last few hours and then BOOM right in the face!

I thought we really knew each other.. we had something special... :(


Lol - and I liked the idea that Galka had none as well. Kind of sad it was a mistranslate - made the "Resurrection speculation done by the npc" less likely.

@ Androgynous races:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4...jgweo1_400.png


@ someone who knows japanese culture - are they sex specific in anti-homosexuality? Or is it dont ask dont tell. I have no idea what they think - I'd have thought they where more into it with what their pop stars look like and all lol.

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sometimes you say things that make me wonder if I didn't play with you often and just not know it.

There has already been several of these threads that were closed by moderators, why are we opening another one? nothing new is being discussed.

I believe that the idea of same - sex marriage is a good idea based on not only a marketing standpoint for the Western market but it also makes good PR for SE in the US to where same sex marriage is starting to become more accepted as a mainstream.

The folks at Trion implemented same-sex marriage as a way to get players to not only play the game but to come together more as a community, and I personally think that if SE implemented this idea that more players would come and play the game. It worked for Trion, I think that SE should try it as well.

I do recognize that in Japan same-sex marriage is frowned upon as their laws dictate that same-sex marriage is not legal domestically. Japan does however recognize same-sex marriage from foreign partners in countries where same-sex marriages are legal. And in 2012 the Tokyo Disney Resort allows same-sex marriage ceremonies in its hotel.

So SE in reality could push the envelope here and keep it civil at the same time, they could really have a true hit MMO that caters to all, no matter the gender, race, sexual orientation, or religion. Se has been known to break through barriers before with their games (graphically and story wise) they can do it again.

Just my thoughts on this.

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

There has already been several of these threads that were closed by moderators, why are we opening another one? nothing new is being discussed.

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The same reason there isn't just one thread of everything. This is a message board, people use it for opinions and polls and debates too.

Marriage services were brought up in the live letter. It is potentially brought up content planned for the future. People have opinions on what that content should include.

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Originally Posted by Raza

I voted yes and I'm glad that the yes votes outnumber the no votes 4 to 1.

Thinking back to how EA handled this... it's really easy to handle homosexual content and get away with it. There really isn't much risk at all unless you completely mess up a blog post advertising upcoming support for it. The best way to go about it, is to do what Skyrim did and just say "yeah we support it" and just be done with it. Most of the gaming community seems to be for it or just doesn't care either way, so supporting it will no doubt be in their favor. So, if it was added, I think that it would go like this:

1. People who feel strongly for it will probably have more of an interest in the game and SE.

2. People who support, but not very strongly will still be happy and it will probably have a positive impact on sales due to the increased publicity it brings.

3. People who don't care either way will still be hearing more about SE and FF14 due to news articles reporting on it. This will create more publicity and most likely sales.

4. People who are against it, but not strongly against it will still receive more information about the game and it will most likely not impact sales.

5. People who are strongly against it will hear about it, and whether or not they are players, it may impact whether they keep playing or not. But, there will always be those who will keep playing despite being against it.

I think that this little spectrum here is pretty accurate and that no matter what they do, it will work in their favor. Especially with how much publicity the topic of same-sex relationships is getting these days.

Just pump something out, and let the media know. Kotaku and other sites will post up articles talking about it and how they are thankful for it, etc. I guarantee it will work in their favor, much like it did for EA, despite their bad rep as a company altogether.

http://kotaku.com/5888909/why-a-vide...o-be-a-gay-man
http://kotaku.com/5899246/homophobes...me+sex-romance
http://kotaku.com/5802122/you-wont-k...-mass-effect-3
http://www.webpronews.com/swtor-the-...verage-2012-02
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10797_3-57...tar-wars-game/
http://www.joystiq.com/2011/08/25/sk...sex-marriages/

And for the not so Western part of the world...
http://kotaku.com/5868301/skyrim-japan-likes-you
http://www.computerandvideogames.com...e-chart-debut/
http://kotaku.com/5272178/japanese-g...u-might-expect

These are just some example articles, out of the many hundreds out there on this topic that I'm posting just to show that gamers just don't care enough to not buy games because of this. I know these games are mostly popular in the Western world, but the Western world usually counts for an enormous proportion of sales. If you read through the comments on these articles, or even topics about this on their own forums, you will see that people who speak out for it, are for the most part in favor of it. And either way, publicity is publicity.

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If EA can do it... so can SE. I dont even like most of the games with EA's name on it, but at least they aren't wimps.

If Japan has any concern about their own survival, they won't sanction same-sex marriages anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

I think the subject of same sex marriage is touchy, maybe too touchy for SE at the time since for one they originate from japan where its not allowed, and they have to think of it from a business perspective, nobody has an issue with straight marriage but there is a big number of people who aren't for same sex marriage.

I believe asking for it at the time is on the same magnitude of asking for polygamous marriage, which is ok in some places and not so accepted in others.

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No one has an issue with straight marriage, the issue is with the restriction and exclusion of same sex couples from participating. The only relevant information we have is this thread and the poll in it. Those votes and posts are from people who actually play this game. Going by that info, SE would be losing almost four times more business by not allowing same sex marriage (if everyone who voted left if they didn't get their way). Realistically, they'd be upsetting/disappointing four times more people.

Morally of the same magnitude? Possibly. If you consider resources though, making a restrictive system here is actually more work than just allowing any character to marry any other character.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

If Japan has any concern about their own survival, they won't sanction same-sex marriages anytime soon.

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I don't think that's taken into proper context.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

If Japan has any concern about their own survival, they won't sanction same-sex marriages anytime soon.

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Wait, you actually think that birth rates will suffer if Japan allows marriage equality? Based on what, exactly?

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

If Japan has any concern about their own survival, they won't sanction same-sex marriages anytime soon.

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However same sex marriage in Eorzea won't hurt its survival.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

The same reason there isn't just one thread of everything. This is a message board, people use it for opinions and polls and debates too.

Marriage services were brought up in the live letter. It is potentially brought up content planned for the future. People have opinions on what that content should include.

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Hello folks,

This topic has been brought up a number of times and Development has been made aware of all the thoughts and feelings, from both sides. I am going to lock this thread, now, as this has been a hot topic in the past, so we are getting no new opinions.

Thank you for your thoughts and support, but some of the posts may need to be removed after we do a full review of the thread.

-Senior Game Master Jhanaka

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I support marriage of all types, just for the record. but this is pointless. like regional servers they will do what is in the best intrests of their game succeeding, they cant afford to piss off all the closeminded people. most of them are already on the forums, lol j/k.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

If Japan has any concern about their own survival, they won't sanction same-sex marriages anytime soon.

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Marriages are not required to have children. Nor are married couples forced to procreate.

How does preventing same sex marriages force the LGBT crowd to marry people they are not attracted to? How does it even foster the needed family environment for raising children, or wanting children?

More to the point, how does same sex marriages in game have anything to do with Japan's population?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Marriages are not required to have children. Nor are married couples forced to procreate.

How does preventing same sex marriages force the LGBT crowd to marry people they are not attracted to? How does it even foster the needed family environment for raising children, or wanting children?

More to the point, how does same sex marriages in game have anything to do with Japan's population?

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Didn't you know? If gay marriage were recognized as valid everyone in the world would suddenly turn gay and the human race would die out. I mean it is so obvious. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

I support marriage of all types, just for the record. but this is pointless. like regional servers they will do what is in the best intrests of their game succeeding, they cant afford to piss off all the closeminded people. most of them are already on the forums, lol j/k.

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They locked that thread because it got too heated AND because there wasn't any opinion that the devs haven't already heard. I realize you'd rather not have this thread exist, but the mods haven't locked it yet, which means that at least for now this thread is not a problem.

If the mods think this thread needs to be locked, it will be locked. Just let them do their job.

I said it earlier, but the only problem with this thread (socio-religeous discussion aside) is that a poll on the forums is inherently not representative of the buying populace. The poll needs to be publicised and placed in all languages so people across the world have full knowledge of it's existance and can contribute.

The only people contributing to this poll are people who are naturally on forums, which is in and of itself, a subgroup.

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Originally Posted by RoxyLalonde

sometimes you say things that make me wonder if I didn't play with you often and just not know it.

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Oh But I am " . . ." Fill it in with some mind blowing name - tell me that name and then Ill meet you on ARR with a hardcore in game / out of game RP :D

I saw you a few times in the server but it was near the end and I think you were afk cause I waved and you didnt move. . . *whimpers* lol

Assuming you are located within NA, see you in ARR too :P (Or content finder, hope you can request cross server players in it that; would be fun)

@Colvin - Pretty much lol, It is good to know when the forum thinks something is a interesting idea but it hardly represents the majority of actual players.

I really hope they get it done and over with quickly as well, "just in case" I dont want the opening of ARR to be marred with a battle of activists and their opponents. Letting the players have a decision, I think, is a bad idea.. but.. so long as they can get it done smoothly I guess it doesnt matter.

These are pixels and guys play girl characters and vice versea. I don't think it's so important that the pixels' genders be the same to marry in a fictional world.
I say allow it. because in the end it's their personal decision that doesn't effect me. those who are against same sex marriage, think of it this way, if you put all your time and work into a girl character , and your a guy. and there is a girl or perhaps even your wife (or can reverse say girl>guy character>husband>guy character) your not going to want to create a mule just to marry them. that would be like calling in a substitute to marry them, what would be the point?
This should not turn into an argument about gay marriage I see this as a way to let those who play opposite genders in the game to be with whoever they have their heart set on guy or girl, and be able to celebrate that.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Oh But I am " . . ." Fill it in with some mind blowing name - tell me that name and then Ill meet you on ARR with a hardcore in game / out of game RP :D

I saw you a few times in the server but it was near the end and I think you were afk cause I waved and you didnt move. . . *whimpers* lol

Assuming you are located within NA, see you in ARR too :P (Or content finder, hope you can request cross server players in it that; would be fun)

@Colvin - Pretty much lol, It is good to know when the forum thinks something is a interesting idea but it hardly represents the majority of actual players.

I really hope they get it done and over with quickly as well, "just in case" I dont want the opening of ARR to be marred with a battle of activists and their opponents. Letting the players have a decision, I think, is a bad idea.. but.. so long as they can get it done smoothly I guess it doesnt matter.

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I will be captain subligar in 2.0... XD you seem pretty cool so I'm sad we never got to play together :(

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Marriages are not required to have children. Nor are married couples forced to procreate.

How does preventing same sex marriages force the LGBT crowd to marry people they are not attracted to? How does it even foster the needed family environment for raising children, or wanting children?

More to the point, how does same sex marriages in game have anything to do with Japan's population?

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It makes perfect sense:

Marriage is a child-stimulus program (either by design or incidentally). Same sex unions are a stamp of approval on a romantic relationship. To call a same-sex union a 'marriage' is to reduce the latter to the former.

Japan needs a child-stimulus program - that is a special benefit to those who are starting a biological family.

I doubt you'll understand this though - you seem determined that the romantic element is the only component of marriage, rather than just a part of it (Historically, it wasn't a part of some marriages at all.)

I support same sex marriage.
I know people in different country/religion has different view of this but restricting someone from being together with someone they truly love is not right. If you can love someone, that shouldn't matter if that person is same gender or not. All it matters is love in the end right? Times are changing people, we have to be able to love one another more than spreading hate.

But in my case... I just spread subligar love to everyone... no matter what race, gender, species, monsters... so.... yeah....

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

They locked that thread because it got too heated AND because there wasn't any opinion that the devs haven't already heard. I realize you'd rather not have this thread exist, but the mods haven't locked it yet, which means that at least for now this thread is not a problem.

If the mods think this thread needs to be locked, it will be locked. Just let them do their job.

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That was kind of a bs reason to close the thread though considering they just described about 90% of the topics that have been and will be on this forum. Never before have I seen a thread closed with that reason stated.

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

All it matters is love in the end right? Times are changing people, we have to be able to love one another more than spreading hate.

But in my case... I just spread subligar love to everyone... no matter what race, gender, species, monsters... so.... yeah....

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Nominated for the congressional medal of awesome

I support polyamory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory
And there are many people out there, living that way.

I think it should be allowed to marry more than 1 character.
Do we really want to ignore this minority, too?
You guys inspire me.
I should make a thread.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

It makes perfect sense:

Marriage is a child-stimulus program (either by design or incidentally). Same sex unions are a stamp of approval on a romantic relationship. To call a same-sex union a 'marriage' is to reduce the latter to the former.

Japan needs a child-stimulus program - that is a special benefit to those who are starting a biological family.

I doubt you'll understand this though - you seem determined that the romantic element is the only component of marriage, rather than just a part of it (Historically, it wasn't a part of some marriages at all.)

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A "child stimulus program"...I'll have to remember that for my stand up routine.

Still, I have to wonder exactly how many would-be parents are factoring whether marriage equality is legal into their decision about having a baby.

"Well gee, honey, we're doing fine financially, there's room in the house, and we did always say we wanted a child but...I just can't get over that there are gays out there somewhere marrying each other. I mean, two people of the same sex raising adopted or surrogate children in a legally recognized family, it's just too much!"

Is there any research or study you're basing this off of, Zan?

In my experience there are two kinds of people arguing for SSM:

1) People who are personally invested in it. They are gay, or have friends who are, and they believe that this makes gay relationships officially 'accepted', or 'validated'. Their position is emotional and they won't be convinced by any arguments.. ever. - they just FEEL strongly about this and are the most vocal. These people will often view the opposition as homophobes, bigots, haters, despots, etc.

2) People who are caught up into the latest cause de celebre (often passively). These people want SSM because the believe it to be popular or because they don't want to be treated as a wet-blanket, or ridiculed, or excluded from anything. These people put out very weak arguments for SSM and typically just say: "Why can't we all get along" or "If someone wants to do 'X', who are we to say they can't?". These people will frequently modify or change their position solely depending on what their friends, media, or other perceived popular sources are saying. (These types would be equally opposed to SSM if you asked them a mere 10 years ago)

Reading through the posts, its pretty easy to sort them into these two categories. And it's why arguing over it is largely useless.



I trust SE to do what's in their own best interest, and from my vantage point, implementing SSM is much more of a sticky issue than just staying out of it. In fact, I've said implementing ANY marriage in FFXIV is a silly/stupid idea.

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Originally Posted by RoxyLalonde

I will be captain subligar in 2.0... XD you seem pretty cool so I'm sad we never got to play together :(

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Capt just wants SSM so he can have a legit excuse to stalk me like he did before the servers went offline <.<

Zantetsuken, I think there is a third category of people who want to marry their partners in-game but don't play their actual gender. There have been several replies to this effect. It's a smaller group, but, it's becoming increasingly common to see couples play MMO's and to see men playing female avatars and vice versa :)

(Aside, It may be worth pointing out that in one of Square Enix's own videos, they shown a male hume being played by a woman (at least... it really sounds like a woman!) and a lalafell female being played by a man. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=n-vjy97RuoA )

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Originally Posted by Vilhem

Capt just wants SSM so he can have a legit excuse to stalk me like he did before the servers went offline <.<

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I never stalked you o_O and how would stalking you involve marriage... oh there's SSM therefore I will stalk vilhelm into marriage submission?
And @ Zan I really wish you would stop this... I've respected your opinion in the past but you are teetering on offensive... It makes me very sad to see this topic in general... I already had to deal with this in the elections (In florida there was a lot of terrible propaganda) ... now from FFXIV??

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Originally Posted by Laiferr

Zantetsuken, I think there is a third category of people who want to marry their partners in-game but don't play their actual gender. There have been several replies to this effect. It's a smaller group, but, it's becoming increasingly common to see couples play MMO's and to see men playing female avatars and vice versa :)

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I agree with that. About half of my RL friends that play are playing opposite gender characters.

IF they called it 'soul pairing' or something of the sort in-game, I don't think many people would have an issue with it.

It's the term 'Marriage' which takes the issue out of the game and propels SE headfirst into RL politics and culture.

But as you'll see, many advocates here won't settle for something like 'Soul Pairing', because they want SMM by name in as many places as possible to use as leverage in the larger RL social discussion, in addition to having the in-game relationship of their choice.

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Originally Posted by RoxyLalonde

I never stalked you o_O and how would stalking you involve marriage... oh there's SSM therefore I will stalk vilhelm into marriage submission?

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You got it! And I'm jk about the stalking >.> Didn't get to say bye and stuff before servers went offline :(

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Originally Posted by RoxyLalonde

@ Zan I really wish you would stop this... I've respected your opinion in the past but you are teetering on offensive... It makes me very sad to see this topic in general...

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How have I been offensive?:confused:

It certainly wasn't my intention.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

I agree with that. About half of my RL friends that play are playing opposite gender characters.

IF they called it 'soul pairing' or something of the sort in-game, I don't think many people would have an issue with it.

It's the term 'Marriage' which takes the issue out of the game and propels SE headfirst into RL politics and culture.

But as you'll see, many advocates here won't settle for something like 'Soul Pairing', because they want SMM by name in as many places ass possible to use as leverage in the larger RL social discussion, in addition to having the in-game relationship of their choice.

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If the issue is solely with the use of the term "Marriage" and not using it will allow them to more easily remove the gender restriction, I'm all for it. I really don't care what they call it, as long as there's equal access to all couples playing the game.

I fall into your first category, I have friends who are gay who I'm sure would love to have the option to use all of the features in the game regardless of their gender or the gender of their partner. The restriction doesn't impact me negatively in any way but I still think they need to remove it.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

In my experience there are two kinds of people arguing for SSM:

1) People who are personally invested in it. They are gay, or have friends who are, and they believe that this makes gay relationships officially 'accepted', or 'validated'. Their position is emotional and they won't be convinced by any arguments.. ever. - they just FEEL strongly about this and are the most vocal. These people will often view the opposition as homophobes, bigots, haters, despots, etc.

2) People who are caught up into the latest cause de celebre (often passively). These people want SSM because the believe it to be popular or because they don't want to be treated as a wet-blanket, or ridiculed, or excluded from anything. These people put out very weak arguments for SSM and typically just say: "Why can't we all get along" or "If someone wants to do 'X', who are we to say they can't?". These people will frequently modify or change their position solely depending on what their friends, media, or other perceived popular sources are saying. (These types would be equally opposed to SSM if you asked them a mere 10 years ago)

Reading through the posts, its pretty easy to sort them into these two categories. And it's why arguing over it is largely useless.



I trust SE to do what's in their own best interest, and from my vantage point, implementing SSM is much more of a sticky issue than just staying out of it. In fact, I've said implementing ANY marriage in FFXIV is a silly/stupid idea.

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Generally speaking, I find anyone who is opposed to marriage equality tend to base their arguments on either wild speculation that isn't backed up by anything, unscientific studies on the subject, or the notion that their personal religious tenets should be enforced by law.

Though if they do cite credible studies, they'll often misrepresent the findings, which they tend to get away with normally when they only have to fear the authors of the studies calling them out, but when it's tested in the court of law like it was in Perry v Brown (previously Perry v Schwarzenegger), the claims do not hold.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

Generally speaking, I find anyone who is opposed to marriage equality tend to base their arguments on either wild speculation that isn't backed up by anything, unscientific studies on the subject, or the notion that their personal religious tenets should be enforced by law.

Though if they do cite credible studies, they'll often misrepresent the findings, which they tend to get away with normally when they only have to fear the authors of the studies calling them out, but when it's tested in the court of law like it was in Perry v Brown (previously Perry v Schwarzenegger), the claims do not hold.

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What evidence would suffice in swaying your position? (Hypothetically)