Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Yeah, but most premades tell the snipers why they should step off. If they don't, that's them willfully sabotaging others.

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How do we get from ordering someone to do something, and when they choose not to they become willful saboteurs?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I am not engaging in a conversation with anyone who thinks they have profound insights on how I can improve my life, particularly when they have never met me.

Physician, heal thyself.

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It's rather ghastly - and arrogant - to suggest I need to heal myself. To suggest that I need to go on some spiritual and mental journey of healing. What qualifies you to suggest this? Have you met me? Have you walked a mile in my shoes?

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Originally Posted by Neclord

It's rather ghastly - and arrogant - to suggest I need to heal myself. To suggest that I need to go on some spiritual and mental journey of healing. What qualifies you to suggest this? Have you met me? Have you walked a mile in my shoes?

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"The proverb "Physician, heal thyself" means that one should address their own flaws, problems, or shortcomings before attempting to correct those of others. It's an ancient saying, dating back to at least the 6th century B.C. and appearing in various texts, including the Bible in Luke 4:23. The phrase emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and personal responsibility before offering guidance or solutions to others."

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I literally said this in the very next line.



And that's the problem, they talk about it outside of the game but neglected to put the warning in game.

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The problem is they didn't talk about it outside the game either; we only knew it would have some sort of rez restrictions, some sort of phantom job requirements, and an entry system somewhat similar to BA's. They didn't talk about the actual difficulty in the usual context, we were left guessing until the release patch notes made mention of it.

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Originally Posted by JunKazama

I agree with everyone here. You want to try with randoms, leave instance and join one with randoms. EASY. Don't grief a group of dedicated players who are investing hours in learning raid, forming gruop etc.

This is precisely why im not running this shit until they let us queue in as a premade.
SE has been in this market for 14 years. Im over the excuses. The lazy planning, its messy and not representative of what the game should offer.

Im a few more mistakes away from leaving the game. SE is griefing the dedicated player base hard.

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So after entering a NEW instances with around 10 players in it(4 being in my party) waiting for 30 minutes for the weather to appear, while nobody says anything in any chat channel whatsoever, i tag to enter, and once i'm in the raid thanks to my 1 ticket, if i see someone emoting to single me out as a "no revive" target, i have to leave and waste the ticket i farmed for ?

Also i completly agree with you, SE is going in the wrong direction here, they've had the same issue before and decided to repeat the error. However this part of the community(Discord or die) going in an even worse direction is totally on them.

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Originally Posted by JunKazama

I agree with everyone here. You want to try with randoms, leave instance and join one with randoms. EASY. Don't grief a group of dedicated players who are investing hours in learning raid, forming gruop etc.

This is precisely why im not running this shit until they let us queue in as a premade.
SE has been in this market for 14 years. Im over the excuses. The lazy planning, its messy and not representative of what the game should offer.

Im a few more mistakes away from leaving the game. SE is griefing the dedicated player base hard.

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SE are griefing more than just the dedicated player base I can assure you.

This is a pile of fresh garbage, even for those that aren't as dedicated.

Maybe multiple choice is easier for these people.

You join an OC instance and weather pops. A group of 48 people is on the glowy platform. They ask you to kindly step off because a) they're premade, b) they are at a further prog point, c) they invested time into organizing it and spreadsheeting. They link their discord and ask you to join a future newbie run.
Do you:
a) ignore that and join anyway, putting in ciphers and leeching off of the organization of the premade making the run possible in the first place, as well as shitting on everyone's efforts to make time for this coordinated effort?
b) step off the platform and cry wolf on the forum about how the mean raiders are gatekeeping the content?
c) thank them kindly, reinstance and try to organize it yourself with randoms in the next instance? (and don't go into b) after failing)
or
d) join the discord, join a newbie run, pull your weight, actually read guides and provide help with the organizing?

If the answer is anything but c) or d), you are the problem.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

"The proverb "Physician, heal thyself" means that one should address their own flaws, problems, or shortcomings

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I am not engaging in a conversation with anyone who thinks they have profound insights on how I can improve my life, particularly when they have never met me.

Physician, heal thyself.

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Goodness gracious.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Maybe multiple choice is easier for these people.

You join an OC instance and weather pops. A group of 48 people is on the glowy platform. They ask you to kindly step off because a) they're premade, b) they are at a further prog point, c) they invested time into organizing it and spreadsheeting. They link their discord and ask you to join a future newbie run.
Do you:
a) ignore that and join anyway, putting in ciphers and leeching off of the organization of the premade making the run possible in the first place, as well as shitting on everyone's efforts to make time for this coordinated effort?
b) step off the platform and cry wolf on the forum about how the mean raiders are gatekeeping the content?
c) thank them kindly, reinstance and try to organize it yourself with randoms in the next instance? (and don't go into b) after failing)
or
d) join the discord, join a newbie run, pull your weight, actually read guides and provide help with the organizing?

If the answer is anything but c) or d), you are the problem.

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They have to ask something though, there was no warning message whatsoever, we just got targeted with the pointing finger emote once we were in, and when we were in there still was no warning.

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Originally Posted by Neclord

Goodness gracious.

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Great balls of fire...

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Originally Posted by Neclord

I can only hope that your perspective on community changes as you go about your life. It would certainly benefit you in the long run.

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They have to ask something though, there was no warning message whatsoever, we just got targeted with the pointing finger emote once we were in, and when we were in there still was no warning.

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If you see 48 people standing there, just reinstance. You wouldn't have gotten into tower without the premade you were leeching off of. Unless you can organize 16/24 people who are not premades you're leeching off of, you're not entitled to anyone's time. So you won't get raised. And as Neclord said, it's fairly obvious you were following Rinon around because of your weird hateboner.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

So provided the Plebs bend the knee, they will be tolerated?

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Originally Posted by Neclord

I think we just have a difference of perspective here. As a reasonably social person, I have no qualms joining subcommunities in a multiplayer game and collaborating with people (they don't bite) to clear something. If you see that as a bending of the knee rather than just a normal process when something requires real collaboration, I can only hope that your perspective on community changes as you go about your life. It would certainly benefit you in the long run.

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I'm in awe at how someone with nearly 2500 posts can miss something this straightforward. The beginning of this sentence contains an "if" - which means the hope that you shift your perspective is conditional on whether you believe joining a community to collaborate with people to clear a piece of content in a video game is somehow a submissive act of "bending the knee" to the people you're working with. I think most people in this thread would feel deeply concerned for you if you did.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

If you see 48 people standing there, just reinstance. You wouldn't have gotten into tower without the premade you were leeching off of. Unless you can organize 16/24 people who are not premades you're leeching off of, you're not entitled to anyone's time. So you won't get raised. And as Neclord said, it's fairly obvious you were following Rinon around because of your weird hateboner.

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So the only answer now you have is... we follow Messire Rinnon ?
Just a question. If one day we are 24/24, who will decide who can enter ?
I can't understand how a MMO game allows a certain playerbase to do the policemen and decide who can enter and lauch the raid.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Maybe multiple choice is easier for these people.

You join an OC instance and weather pops. A group of 48 people is on the glowy platform. They ask you to kindly step off because a) they're premade, b) they are at a further prog point, c) they invested time into organizing it and spreadsheeting. They link their discord and ask you to join a future newbie run.
Do you:
a) ignore that and join anyway, putting in ciphers and leeching off of the organization of the premade making the run possible in the first place, as well as shitting on everyone's efforts to make time for this coordinated effort?
b) step off the platform and cry wolf on the forum about how the mean raiders are gatekeeping the content?
c) thank them kindly, reinstance and try to organize it yourself with randoms in the next instance? (and don't go into b) after failing)
or
d) join the discord, join a newbie run, pull your weight, actually read guides and provide help with the organizing?

If the answer is anything but c) or d), you are the problem.

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a) 100% what will you do? Call me names? Go for it, leave me dead, go for it it's just a game it isn't my first time dying to content I'm trying to learn, blacklist me? Good, Why would I want to play with someone who hates me because I play differently to them?

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

If you see 48 people standing there, just reinstance. You wouldn't have gotten into tower without the premade you were leeching off of. Unless you can organize 16/24 people who are not premades you're leeching off of, you're not entitled to anyone's time. So you won't get raised. And as Neclord said, it's fairly obvious you were following Rinon around because of your weird hateboner.

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Again, HOW DO I F* KNOW ? They could all be players just being around OC and waiting for the weather, don't blame me for their lack of communication, i didn't see a single message saying this was a premade, i was doing fates while waiting for the weather.
At first there was one of my teammates and 3 rdms on the platform, we just entered this instance and there were around 10 people in, then it shot up to 35 or smth in minutes, i do fates for a while then the right weather appear i tag to go in and discover the raid, it's as simple as that.
So whenever there are people in my instance ready to do the raid i don't go in ? What kind of logic is that ? IF they tried to actually communicate instead of going on a bullying spree i would have gone off the platform, you think i would throw away scrolls just for fun ? WTF

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Originally Posted by Neclord

I'm in awe at how someone with nearly 2500 posts can miss something this straightforward. The beginning of this sentence contains an "if" - which means the hope that you shift your perspective is conditional on whether you believe joining a community to collaborate with people to clear a piece of content in a video game is somehow a submissive act of "bending the knee" to the people you're working with. I think most people in this thread would feel deeply concerned for you if you did.

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Oh good, a lawyer.

Yes agreed, that would be a very weird position for me to take. But never did I suggest joining a group was a submissive act.

I'm done with this, but I would assume that a lawyer would notice the behavior that "bending the knee" was actually referring to. If they believed the judge was asleep, the jury was gullible, and they had a flexible personal code of ethics, they might then run with your disingenuous argument.

Do please have the last word if you wish.

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

leave me dead

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That. And apparently the snipers seem to hate being left dead. If you don't mind, sure. I don't mind leaving leechers and snipers dead until they either stop doing it or get good enough to somehow pull their weight.

The "no communication, they could've all been randoms" doesn't track. It doesn't track because this content is indeed being organized outside of FFXIV for the most part, organizing inside is less likely, so the onus is on you to not inconvenience 48 people.

If it was 24/24, whoever came second should leave tbh. They did that for BA. "Is this instance taken?". That easy. But as long as you're under 24 or even 16 people, do not think you deserve priority over groups that organize and let you enter in the first place. You get your cipher back when you reinstance. It ain't that deep.

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Originally Posted by Watai

you think i would throw away scrolls just for fun ? WTF

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The one thing I will say is that you are refunded the cipher if you don't make it in.

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

a) 100% what will you do? Call me names? Go for it, leave me dead, go for it it's just a game it isn't my first time dying to content I'm trying to learn, blacklist me? Good, Why would I want to play with someone who hates me because I play differently to them?

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It is about being polite from both sides. If one side kindly ask, they want to do premade, and you insist on going in... I don't think those people are the real problem. Problem is SE made this system and it allows toxicity to spread. You wanna tell us, if you see some private ceremony in public space (these happen), where you are comforted that it is private and you still go and eat their cake... Dunno. That's more toxic than them in my opinion.

I think you are not even planning on actually doing the raid. You just want to make people mad and that is all.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Oh good, a lawyer.

Yes agreed, that would be a very weird position for me to take. But never did I suggest joining a group was a submissive act.

I'm done with this, but I would assume that a lawyer would notice the behavior that "bending the knee" was actually referring to. If they believed the judge was asleep, the jury was gullible, and they had a flexible personal code of ethics, they might then run with your disingenuous argument.

Do please have the last word if you wish.

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Great. Thank you for clarifying you do not see joining a group to be a submissive act. I would've preferred to have received that clarification three pages ago and without being misquoted multiple times, but there we are.

Can you return to discussing the actual topic of the thread rather than whatever this law court roleplay is please?

Self awareness taking an extended holiday in this thread I see.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

The one thing I will say is that you are refunded the cipher if you don't make it in.

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Yes you are 100% right, but in this case they never said they were a premade, so we tagged in assuming they were random groups or just random players, and it's once we were in that they showed it was a premade by talking about "coordination" and that we "sniped", letting us dead on the floor making us use scrolls for nothing, so they are actively griefing by letting us rot on the floor while we still have 3 revive left, making us lose an OC lvl, and making us lose our Scrolls.
The Alchemist revive is instant and only has 5 sec cd, it requires no items. They are just griefing.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

That. And apparently the snipers seem to hate being left dead. If you don't mind, sure. I don't mind leaving leechers and snipers dead until they either stop doing it or get good enough to somehow pull their weight.

The "no communication, they could've all been randoms" doesn't track. It doesn't track because this content is indeed being organized outside of FFXIV for the most part, organizing inside is less likely, so the onus is on you to not inconvenience 48 people.

If it was 24/24, whoever came second should leave tbh. They did that for BA. "Is this instance taken?". That easy. But as long as you're under 24 or even 16 people, do not think you deserve priority over groups that organize and let you enter in the first place. You get your cipher back when you reinstance. It ain't that deep.

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Why would I stop doing it? And yes obviously I'd get good with practice just the same way you and everyone else does with everything in the game. What they dislike about being left dead is the toxicity of it shown to them by other players who originally they were working with to clear and as thanks they get sneered and jeered at. it's rude and unhelpful it's against tos too but some actively encourage it to try to force people to play the game the way they do.

I guess I'll try one last time. If you, as a sniper, are in the run and do not know boss 2, you are very likely to wipe the entire raid. Boss 3, hallways and bridges, too. Keeping you alive (that is, healing and ressing you) is a risk to the run.

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

Why would I stop doing it? And yes obviously I'd get good with practice just the same way you and everyone else does with everything in the game. What they dislike about being left dead is the toxicity of it shown to them by other players who originally they were working with to clear and as thanks they get sneered and jeered at. it's rude and unhelpful it's against tos too but some actively encourage it to try to force people to play the game the way they do.

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I don't think there is anything in TOS telling us, that people are expected to raise dead players. But you can prove me wrong.

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Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy

I don't think there is anything in TOS telling us, that people are expected to raise dead players. But you can prove me wrong.

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I realize it's a long thread, but I believe there are 3 or 4 different posts highlighting multiple parts of ToS that indicate this is a punishable offence.

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Originally Posted by SaltyDaddy

It is about being polite from both sides. If one side kindly ask, they want to do premade, and you insist on going in... I don't think those people are the real problem. Problem is SE made this system and it allows toxicity to spread. You wanna tell us, if you see some private ceremony in public space (these happen), where you are comforted that it is private and you still go and eat their cake... Dunno. That's more toxic than them in my opinion.

I think you are not even planning on actually doing the raid. You just want to make people mad and that is all.

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Like lots of people have said before just accept random people might end up in your premade thing because the instance is open to all. Pretty ridiculous to suggest I just want to make people mad im not the one calling people names or judging them on how they play the game.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I realize it's a long thread, but I believe there are 3 or 4 different posts highlighting multiple parts of ToS that indicate this is a punishable offence.

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I want to point out that every part of the ToS that people highlighted mentions being in a group. Being in the same instance doing the same content doesn't mean you're in a group, alliance raids have separate party frames for the other 2 alliances to indicate you're in a group, but OC content does not.

Would it be fine to report every healer and chemist for not raising you when you're all doing the same CE together?

People are so trigger happy with the report button nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I want to point out that every part of the ToS that people highlighted mentions being in a group. Being in the same instance doing the same content doesn't mean you're in a group, alliance raids have separate party frames for the other 2 alliances to indicate you're in a group, but OC content does not.

Would it be fine to report every healer and chemist for not raising you when you're all doing the same CE together?

People are so trigger happy with the report button nowadays.

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I'm pretty sure you'll find plenty of GMs who will view being in the same instance as qualifying as "the same group."

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Which means if I die in a CE I can report every single chemist, healer, RDM, SMN and person who has one of the former levelled for teleporting back to the start rather than raising me?

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I'd say there's a qualitative difference between an instanced dungeon which can be failed and open world content, but as Kaurhz notes the ToS allow some room for interpretation.

It's the same sort of issue we have in Frontline in defining "lethargic play."

ToS is really too nebulous in the fact that you really could make a case for such behavior violating the ToS, e.g.,

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Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
"If you can't do the mechanic well, maybe you shouldn't bother joining the party."
"If you're going to talk like that, why don't you just quit?"
"If you don't understand that, you'd be wise to leave the party."
"Let's ignore them."
"Let’s leave [person] out."

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Just in the same way that if you wanted to make a case for someone 'sniping' runs under the following:

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・Expressions considered impolite or against common sense
・Expressions that significantly lack consideration for others
"intentionally ignoring the community-specific rules and guidelines while being aware of them" or "unwilling to learn of them," a report can be made.

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It is literally is a case of whatever the side of the bed the person reviewing the report woke up on.

That being said, I would not be surprised if some people find themselves getting a warning.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'm pretty sure you'll find plenty of GMs who will view being in the same instance as qualifying as "the same group."

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Which means if I die in a CE I can report every single chemist, healer, RDM, SMN and person who has one of the former levelled for teleporting back to the start rather than raising me?

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

I guess I'll try one last time. If you, as a sniper, are in the run and do not know boss 2, you are very likely to wipe the entire raid. Boss 3, hallways and bridges, too. Keeping you alive (that is, healing and ressing you) is a risk to the run.

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Ok but if you don't rez someone how will they learn? You can't expect people to believe that the first time these runs were played somehow you all magically knew that you needed to leave people in your team dead. Nah you all rezzed each other and carried on learning and progging and I'm sure some of you caused wipes many times over but letting others be new at it? Naaaah they need to watch your YouTube guides and get in your discord and fill out your questionnaires so you can decide where they belong (the newbie run no doubt).

Really want to try FT, and don't mind discord because use it already for a lot of content across a few games(and have done Eureka with a BA-centric server too), but the more I read this thread and the wild/cringe takes, I'll just spend time silver/gold currency/coin farming instead.

This could have been entirely avoided if the devs had been more considerate and aware that people are going to be people, and that there should have been a split between normal and this current difficulty.

I mean, yeah, if the premade you're sniping is a boss 4 prog and you're new, they won't reprog for you. That'd be stupid. And yeah, normally everyone does indeed do the spreadsheet (not even signup, a lot of runs are FFA) as well as read guides (no YouTube in this town, just raidplans). There are blind parties, and even they don't like snipers because everyone took the time out of their day for this very much scheduled event.

If you wanna learn mechanics, learn with people at your prog point. You don't join M6S kill parties when you haven't watched a guide, let alone adds, either, do you?

I think what people don’t seem to understand is how high stakes a wipe is in Forked Tower, it’s more punitive than Savage and Ultimate where if you wipe you just try again from start, but if you wipe Forked Tower you’re sent back to OC and have to wait 30-40 mins to queue back in again… this is why runs are mostly run as organised, if you think you can rock up to fights blind and not check raid plans and think you’ll coast through FT you’re in for a rude awakening indeed…

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Originally Posted by Novarius

I think what people don’t seem to understand is how high stakes a wipe is in Forked Tower, it’s more punitive than Savage and Ultimate where if you wipe you just try again from start, but if you wipe Forked Tower you’re sent back to OC and have to wait 30-40 mins to queue back in again… this is why runs are mostly run as organised, if you think you can rock up to fights blind and not check raid plans and think you’ll coast through FT you’re in for a rude awakening indeed…

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I haven't had chance to try it yet but is it really that hard? Why have they stuck a savage level raid in OC where anyone in instance can sign up? Is it really like savage/ultimate?

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

I haven't had chance to try it yet but is it really that hard? Why have they stuck a savage level raid in OC where anyone in instance can sign up? Is it really like savage/ultimate?

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Because the devs felt like personally challenging themselves on this patch to see if they could actually make it worse than BA in terms of organizing

Having progged over halfway through the final boss of FT I can say the fights are as challenging as EXs and debatably low Savage level at most, that’s not the issue though you can only rez 3 times via Chemists, you can’t change Phantom Jobs once you leave the start area and harshest of all any wipe sends you back to OC unless a Chemist dies, another Chemist gives them a rez and they hold this until the boss resets after a wipe and then they get up and try to rez everyone else…

Also you can’t do the Chemist rez chain on the Bridge encounter so if you wipe there you are cooled… Fight difficulty isn’t the big issue it’s how mean-spirited it feels not being able to retry from start should you fail, whereas you can retry endlessly in Savage and Ultimate…

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Because the devs felt like personally challenging themselves on this patch to see if they could actually make it worse than BA in terms of organizing

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Yeh but wasn't BA extra content at the end of eureka? The OC has only just started so what's a super hard raid requiring discord guides and hardcore planning etc doing in it?

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

Yeh but wasn't BA extra content at the end of eureka? The OC has only just started so what's a super hard raid requiring discord guides and hardcore planning etc doing in it?

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The question everyone is asking