The Ifrit Fight is Dangerous to the Community.

completionists normally have the will and drive to do what it takes to complete a game. not gameshark it up.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

Then, can we agree on this one thing?

If Square implements the scaling difficulty option, without infringing on the rewards, prestige and value of the hardcore mode, can you respect that gameplay design decision?

(People who complain about the hardcore option are fair game for heckling, though!)

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Scaling diminishes the accomplishment of simply having tough fights to begin with. You really think "Hey I beat Ifrit" feels the same as "Hey I know we beat Ifrit 1 star, Ifrit 2 star, Ifrit 3 star, Ifrit 4 star and geared ourselves up with all the variations of drops within, but we just beat Ifrit 5 Star!!! What a rush beating a fight we beat at a slightly lower difficulty so many times..."

Plus balancing it is a nightmare, what do you just give the mob % more damage and HP per level, until what point? Until you need the gear from the lower versions to beat it (or at least most do), this isn't innovative it has been done in other MMO's and the results were not good.

This game needs a variety of content so that those who don't enjoy coordinating with a group can do other things other than try and ruin the game for people who do.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

I believe I already described the general idea of the programming side of things...it's not a HUGE adjustment. Just a few adjustments to the loot tables, stats, and adding a dialog box offering the options.

This isn't a painstakingly-accurate 3D model of the Titanic being coded into the game, people.

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If you knew anything about game programming, you WOULD know that there is a LOT more to it than just a few adjustments.

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

Actually, how about I put it this way. You already have your "experience" or "encounter" with Ifrit. Based on the storyline, you later found out that you didn't really defeat Ifrit (R30).

Thus the R50 "Hyper" encounter was designed for "harcores" who are willing to put it the time and effort and really vanquish Ifrit once and for all. Thus your "wants" and "needs" do in fact infringes on my preferences of not having an alternative dumbed down/adjusted Ifrit for those who aren't willing to put in the same amount of work.

Because that wouldn't do Ifrit justice, the "real defeat" of Ifrit should be hard (if you can call it hard) and challenging. If you do not posses the same skill level and perseverance, you are not fit to defeat the real Ifrit at its full strength, meaning you SHOULD be squashed over and over until you learn how to not stand in fire.



No, because Ifrit does not deserve to have a dumbed down alternative lore wise, just so you can experience his demise.

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How about we try re-framing this discussion in the context of endgame content in general, like Dzemael Darkhold and any/all future dungeons?

Would you still be open to difficulty options for dungeon raids?

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

How about we try re-framing this discussion in the context of endgame content in general, like Dzemael Darkhold and any/all future dungeons?

Would you still be open to difficulty options for dungeon raids?

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He seemed clear to me.

Are you fishing for a yes?

All I can say when I look at this thread:

Heaven forbid there should be any content at all designed for the hardcore player. Doesn't everyone who plays this game deserve to have something in it that challenges them?

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

If you knew anything about game programming, you WOULD know that there is a LOT more to it than just a few adjustments.

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Really? From my experience, it usually is a copy/paste operation, and then tweaking that new set of data along with the necessary hooks to ensure that it starts up properly, before pushing it through testing.

There is probably an in-house tool for creating dialogue options and other functions that are associated with the kind of features I'm talking about.

Let's use Oblivion for an example. They have a construction toolset. If I wanted to take a boss fight and weaken him, and put him in a new dungeon, I can simply copy his data, paste him into the new dungeon, alter his stats, and then add new dialogue options to the NPCs that point the player to the new dungeon.

Honestly, I think you're trying to blow a lot of hot air out of your arse. And it's a lot of hot air. No game developer creates a game entirely in a programming language, and that includes NPC data, dialogue functions, etc. The backbone of the game is in programming language along with the construction of a data communication system that ensures everything works together (like a database for MMOs), then a middleware solution (like the TES Construction Set) is created or imported into the system, and that middleware solution is used to further develop the game.

Now that I've said that, I really think you don't know crap.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

He seemed clear to me.

Are you fishing for a yes?

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Primal fights and dungeon/raid content are two entirely different beasts.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

What I was referring to when I used the dictionary definition, was generally the social aspect of being an obstructionist. Basically, "Saying No for the Sake of No."

You know, like the scrubs in every country's legislature that likes to stomp all over the other side's toes just because they hate their guts regardless of the content of the bill that's on the floor.

(Analogy: Gamers say no because they wanna say no to a proposal suggesting that a pre-existing feature be altered, or because they hate the type of player the proposer is.)

Answa, quit being a troll. Keep your snark outta my thread, will ya?

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Snark be fun. And that's not what people are doing. They're saying this:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

No because it is a waste of resources better spent on MORE content.

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It's quite far from the sentiment you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Answa

Snark be fun. And that's not what people are doing. They're saying this:



It's quite far from the sentiment you're talking about.

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Waste of resources? As far as I know, programming such a simple adjustment to pre-existing content shouldn't take a huge chunk of manpower. I've already described my estimated manpower costs for such an adjustment.

However, building new content with this featureset in mind will certainly add a bit more to the manpower cost, but not by much. It gets easier down the road especially if they're using a code template for the Primal fights.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

How about we try re-framing this discussion in the context of endgame content in general, like Dzemael Darkhold and any/all future dungeons?

Would you still be open to difficulty options for dungeon raids?

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What don't you understand about the fact that difficulty options does affect everyone.

So I'm strugging with your Dzaemael Darkhold 2.0 which has 5 difficulty options.

• Being in an endgame shell we try the 5 Star version first.
• We die.

Now do we:

1. Do the incredibly easy dumbed down versions developed for Casuals which drops gear that is "slightly less powerful" than the rank 5 version but still better than what we have giving us an edge in the fight?
2. Keep bashing our heads against the wall on the fight because we are "hardcore" and we don't have to do the casual versions.

Most people are going to choose option 1 because despite the fact that they may feel a sense of "accomplishment" going for the hard kill first, this other route is much easier and therefore it is irrational to waste everyone's time just so you can feel some ultimately useless "accomplishment". By the time most shells do kill the "hard version" that accomplishment and excitement they might have felt has been ruined by all the other versions.

How about instead they give us alliance content which is always difficult (since most anti-challenge casuals complain about getting together 18+ people too), and give you semi-challenging group dungeons with maybe one or two challenging single group encounters every now and then.

Or if that is still too much of you spam events like Conquest/Besieged where you don't really have to contribute at all. Why do you have to infringe on our content and try and change it to fit you, you would throw a fit if we tried to make the entire game more challenging for example like reintroducing Maat so that everyone has to kill him to reach a new cap

Edit: <aybe they took Maat out of FFXI since I quit or dumbed it down (like they did just about everything else), but originally he was a very tough solo fight *for some classes* that everyone had to complete to reach level 75.

Turning Ifrit battle into crap Guildleve system? {No, Thanks}

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Originally Posted by Aion

Turning Ifrit battle into crap Guildleve system? {No, Thanks}

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QFT loooooooooooooooooooooool

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Plus balancing it is a nightmare, what do you just give the mob % more damage and HP per level, until what point? Until you need the gear from the lower versions to beat it (or at least most do), this isn't innovative it has been done in other MMO's and the results were not good.

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I'm pretty sure WoW hard modes were successful.

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Originally Posted by Quanta

I'm pretty sure WoW hard modes were successful.

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I'm pretty sure they weren't and most of the endgame community agrees that they were stupid timesinks that required many shells to complete the exact same fight on "regular mode" gear up, then do a "hard mode" which was essentially the exact same fight only the mob essentially has better gear too (more HP, does more damage etc.). It is lame.

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Originally Posted by Quanta

I'm pretty sure WoW hard modes were successful.

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There wasn't an "easy version of the hard mode" though.

So, moot point.

I suck at PC FPS games. I played them. I practiced. I got better. I've pushed my Battlefield 3 K/D up to ~1.5 and climbing.

There's a lesson in there for you.

If you missed it, it's called "get better".

Can I get a /thread?

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Originally Posted by Murugan

I'm pretty sure they weren't and most of the endgame community agrees that they were stupid timesinks that required many shells to complete the exact same fight on "regular mode" gear up, then do a "hard mode" which was essentially the exact same fight only the mob essentially has better gear too (more HP, does more damage etc.). It is lame.

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I'm pretty sure they were since every boss gains added spells on top of said damage, and health pool. Oh, and the fact that so many people still play it and strive for hard mode content.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

I'm pretty sure they weren't and most of the endgame community agrees that they were stupid timesinks that required many shells to complete the exact same fight on "regular mode" gear up, then do a "hard mode" which was essentially the exact same fight only the mob essentially has better gear too (more HP, does more damage etc.). It is lame.

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You're right. I guess that's why they stopped it after Ulduar and didn't carry the concept on to the remaining raids of that expansion, and why it was completely excluded from Cataclysm, and why the upcoming expansion isn't having hard modes available from day one...

...Hey, wait a minute...

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Originally Posted by Lavani

I'm pretty sure they were since every boss gains added spells on top of said damage, and health pool. Oh, and the fact that so many people still play it and strive for hard mode content.

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Oh, like the rank 50 Ifrit over the rank 30 one.

Right on man!

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

There wasn't an "easy version of the hard mode" though.

So, moot point.

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There never is a "hard" version of anything if you know what you have to do.

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Originally Posted by Aistaraina

I suck at PC FPS games. I played them. I practiced. I got better. I've pushed my Battlefield 3 K/D up to ~1.5 and climbing.

There's a lesson in there for you.

If you missed it, it's called "get better".

Can I get a /thread?

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add me on battlelog. coreywaslegend. let's shoot baddies who can't kill ifrit.

smiley7890 on battlelog.

I'm bad, but Ill admit it and work on it.

I wont petition DICE to make the game easier.

Add meh!

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Originally Posted by Quanta

You're right. I guess that's why they stopped it after Ulduar and didn't carry the concept on to the remaining raids of that expansion, and why it was completely excluded from Cataclysm, and why the upcoming expansion isn't having hard modes available from day one...

...Hey, wait a minute...

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I'm sorry do you want to play World of Warcraft? I hear they are still accepting new players. It is a bad system, it doesn't matter if people still play the game not everything from WoW is a shining example of good design. People complain about Hard modes constantly in WoW. It was a cheap excuse for Blizzard to put a timesink in endgame and it ruined a great deal of the fun those encounters could have been because everyone had to do it on a crappy version first.

But hey if you want to turn this game into an extreme gear grind with no soul or enjoyment go ahead... oh wait no please don't! I don't want that and I (will be) a paying customer too. I like challenge in my games, and I like the feeling of accomplishment of beating a tough fight with my friends. Not beating a fight on varying levels of difficulty while I gear up and practice for a slightly tougher version of that same fight....

Done and done. xPhantomGunx

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

There wasn't an "easy version of the hard mode" though.

So, moot point.

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Sure there was; it was called Normal Mode, and it was tuned to be beaten by the same endgame players as the hard mode. I'm not saying that the OP shouldn't have to level other classes to clear content (he totally should), or that he should be able to get lesser Ifrit weapons from an easier version of the fight (he totally shouldn't), though I do think there's merit in having a normal mode for the majority to at least see whatever cutscenes will await them at the end of this kind of content (though I'm not sure Ifrit hard has anything like that; our LS is still on attempts), and a hard mode version for the people who want that extra challenge and some bitchin' weapons.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

But hey if you want to turn this game into an extreme gear grind with no soul or enjoyment go ahead... oh wait no please don't! I don't want that and I (will be) a paying customer too. I like challenge in my games, and I like the feeling of accomplishment of beating a tough fight with my friends. Not beating a fight on varying levels of difficulty while I gear up and practice for a slightly tougher version of that same fight....

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I guess that's why no game in the world offers various difficulty levels of the same content.... oh wait never mind.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

What don't you understand about the fact that difficulty options does affect everyone.

So I'm strugging with your Dzaemael Darkhold 2.0 which has 5 difficulty options.

• Being in an endgame shell we try the 5 Star version first.
• We die.

Now do we:

1. Do the incredibly easy dumbed down versions developed for Casuals which drops gear that is "slightly less powerful" than the rank 5 version but still better than what we have giving us an edge in the fight?
2. Keep bashing our heads against the wall on the fight because we are "hardcore" and we don't have to do the casual versions.

Most people are going to choose option 1 because despite the fact that they may feel a sense of "accomplishment" going for the hard kill first, this other route is much easier and therefore it is irrational to waste everyone's time just so you can feel some ultimately useless "accomplishment". By the time most shells do kill the "hard version" that accomplishment and excitement they might have felt has been ruined by all the other versions.

How about instead they give us alliance content which is always difficult (since most anti-challenge casuals complain about getting together 18+ people too), and give you semi-challenging group dungeons with maybe one or two challenging single group encounters every now and then.

Or if that is still too much of you spam events like Conquest/Besieged where you don't really have to contribute at all. Why do you have to infringe on our content and try and change it to fit you, you would throw a fit if we tried to make the entire game more challenging for example like reintroducing Maat so that everyone has to kill him to reach a new cap

Edit: <aybe they took Maat out of FFXI since I quit or dumbed it down (like they did just about everything else), but originally he was a very tough solo fight *for some classes* that everyone had to complete to reach level 75.

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Well, about Option 1, I was thinking that most gear drops would be un-named, non-unique. Only unique, superior drops and chest loot would be found in the top tier version. This ensures that the system is balanced. And I would go for a two or three-rank system instead of five, because with three ranks, you have a smaller workload as a game developer in designing the loot tables for the three difficulty versions (NG equipment, NG+1 Equipment, and Unique Equipment).

And no, Maat is still in, and holy f*ck does he still kick ass.

About Besieged/Conquest, I had to contribute a f*ckton to ensure I could get a decent payoff. Sitting around got me crappy rewards. I don't play XI anymore though. Quit before the cap got raised for the first time after 65.

Also, the sense of accomplishment thing? You're right. That has the potential to to be a buzzkill. Which is why I'm thinking, should we make the variable option feature be a delayed feature? That is to say, it becomes available about 2 months after the content's been implemented.

Example: Square releases a Garlean Empire dungeon, Rank 50 content. The only difficulty mode available at first is Hard. After the first party on that World beats it, a two-month timer is initiated. At the end of those two months, "Standard" difficulty becomes available.

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Originally Posted by Lavani

I guess that's why no game in the world offers various difficulty levels of the same content.... oh wait never mind.

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MMO's didn't used to that's for sure because it doesn't make sense.

It makes sense in a single player game because the player is controlling his own version of the game and that is all they come into contact with.

In an MMO you are playing on a virtual world with other players, if you give an easier route to the same goals then it is irrational for anyone to seek out a challenge even if one is added.

Put in a hard mode and an easy mode for every dungeon and unless the hard mode is not actually hard at all watch as everyone goes and does the easy mode first, gears up and then does the hard mode (unless like with Ifrit you make the easy mode not have any drops whatsoever, which I'd be totally fine with).

I just don't want to have to do tiered versions of the same fight as part of some warped single encounter gear progression like in WoW because that is a horrible and lazy game design.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

The OP wants a scaling difficulty setting so that casual players have a chance to beat Ifrit, at the expense of not being able to get drops.

That being said, I disagree. Yoshi wants a balance between hardcore and casual. This does not mean make all the hardcore fights scaled for casual players.

It means having casual content and hardcore content.

When you make the hardcore content scale on a difficulty slider, then it takes away from the hardcore community because really, not everyone should be able to do that content unless they are dedicated enough.

Balance between Casual and Hardcore does not mean Hardcore with difficulty settings.

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I don't mean to sound like "GIMME ATTENTION" but I really would like a response to this from the OP.

What is wrong with having Casual and Hardcore content?

"Hardcore players can do both but Casual players can only do some!"

Exactly, because hardcore players are hardcore.

They've done it before, so I'm just gonna ask - Can a GM lock this thread please? It's said what it needs to say, I think.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

MMO's didn't used to that's for sure because it doesn't make sense.

It makes sense in a single player game because the player is controlling his own version of the game and that is all they come into contact with.

In an MMO you are playing on a virtual world with other players, if you give an easier route to the same goals then it is irrational for anyone to seek out a challenge even if one is added.

Put in a hard mode and an easy mode for every dungeon and unless the hard mode is not actually hard at all watch as everyone goes and does the easy mode first, gears up and then does the hard mode (unless like with Ifrit you make the easy mode not have any drops whatsoever, which I'd be totally fine with).

I just don't want to have to do tiered versions of the same fight as part of some warped single encounter gear progression like in WoW because that is a horrible and lazy game design.

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You're assuming the easy version of the feature proposal will give anybody any real decent gear to use in the Hard mode...I want to guard against the idea of using Easy mode to "gear up" for the Hard Mode. Maybe as a training tool, sure, but not to get equipment that would give you an advantage in the hard mode.

Want to know how you will get your shot at Ifrit?

Wait a month.

They will nerf him, or give us new gear/content that will make him easier and you can get your kill then.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

Well, about Option 1, I was thinking that most gear drops would be un-named, non-unique. Only unique, superior drops and chest loot would be found in the top tier version. This ensures that the system is balanced. And I would go for a two or three-rank system instead of five, because with three ranks, you have a smaller workload as a game developer in designing the loot tables for the three difficulty versions (NG equipment, NG+1 Equipment, and Unique Equipment).

And no, Maat is still in, and holy f*ck does he still kick ass.

About Besieged/Conquest, I had to contribute a f*ckton to ensure I could get a decent payoff. Sitting around got me crappy rewards. I don't play XI anymore though. Quit before the cap got raised for the first time after 65.

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Yeah I'd be fine with what you just described, but I do kind of think it would be a waste of time to develop as only the Hard Mode would be worth doing. Why would 8 people get together to get some NQ gear they could buy for cheap on the Market Wards? Other than for RP reasons/boredom.

I think instead we just need a variety of content including some which is "hardcore challenging" (preferably in the form of alliance content) so those of us who want to challenge ourselves can do that. I don't want to have to resort to making my own "house rules" to challenge myself either, I want need for an MMO I pay for to demand it of me.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

You're assuming the easy version of the feature proposal will give anybody any real decent gear to use in the Hard mode...I want to guard against the idea of using Easy mode to "gear up" for the Hard Mode. Maybe as a training tool, sure, but not to get equipment that would give you an advantage in the hard mode.

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You keep using examples of other MMO's that do it though. You realize this is what those other MMO's, mainly WoW (and likely GW2 which you referenced will no doubt copy them), do.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

I don't mean to sound like "GIMME ATTENTION" but I really would like a response to this from the OP.

What is wrong with having Casual and Hardcore content?

"Hardcore players can do both but Casual players can only do some!"

Exactly, because hardcore players are hardcore.

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I'll oblige a response for you. The answer pertains to Hardcore content only, however.

Because, to me in my personal experience, most hardcore content does not really put you in control of your gaming experience. I have a strong preference to be in control of how hard I want my encounters to be. It's not much different from me playing Skyrim on Hard, getting eaten by a Dragon despite my best efforts and going, "Oh f*ck that noise!" and readjusting the difficulty to "Normal", and then fighting the dragon again to learn its cues and weak points. Armed with that knowledge, I can then re-up the difficulty to "Hard" and try the fight again.

Sure, it will rob me of the accomplishment of going "WOOT! I didn't chicken out and beat the Dragon on Hard the first time around!", but have I really cared for those sorts of thrilling highs? Not really. Again, it is a matter of individual preference.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Yeah I'd be fine with what you just described, but I do kind of think it would be a waste of time to develop as only the Hard Mode would be worth doing. Why would 8 people get together to get some NQ gear they could buy for cheap on the Market Wards? Other than for RP reasons/boredom.

I think instead we just need a variety of content including some which is "hardcore challenging" (preferably in the form of alliance content) so those of us who want to challenge ourselves can do that. I don't want to have to resort to making my own "house rules" to challenge myself either, I want need for an MMO I pay for to demand it of me.

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I don't see having a "Normal Mode" as worthless. It could be an ideal resource for those who want to do the fight without having to depend on outside information sources (wikis, websites, videos, etc) and instead learning from their own visceral, personal experiences.

Getting your "experience" by living viscerally through others (via aforementioned sources) isn't my sort of thing. Though it IS necessary for now...

If you haven't noticed already, I am a "Knowledge is Power" type of person. I feel rewarded when I learn something by my own initiative, rather than being given the knowledge by other people. However, in a game environment as with a pacing like FFXIV, it is significantly more difficult for me to absorb that kind of information from personal experience when I am under pressure, as I've said in previous posts.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Want to know how you will get your shot at Ifrit?

Wait a month.

They will nerf him, or give us new gear/content that will make him easier and you can get your kill then.

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As far as I'm concerned this thread as of now no longer deals with the act of beating Ifrit or completing endgame content - I'll end up beating him eventually -but is more or less specific to how future and current endgame content should be implemented. That is to say, we're talking about how we can "open up" the endgame content more without damaging the experience for hardcore players.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

I don't see having a "Normal Mode" as worthless. It could be an ideal resource for those who want to do the fight without having to depend on outside information sources (wikis, websites, videos, etc) and instead learning from their own visceral, personal experiences.

Getting your "experience" by living viscerally through others (via aforementioned sources) isn't my sort of thing. Though it IS necessary for now...

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That makes no sense if the only way to beat Ifrit was to depend on outside information sources, how did anyone ever beat it in the first place? Square Enix did not hide a strategy somewhere on the internet for us to find as part of some easter egg hunt.

You can get your experience now, because the fight isn't totally gear dependent you can go in and take your time to figure it out (and there is no real timer either).

Besides I don't think there are enough people playing MMO's who want "generic rewards" or a casual oriented "visceral experience" to demand they put a fight in. Which is why if they went to scaling it would likely involve gear scaling as well, and that is what ruins the fight.

I think you should have just had fun with the fight (or maybe taken a long break from it then tried it again), rather than make this thread. It is certainly doable by everyone, it just has a low tolerance for mistakes which makes it a very frustrating fight as you get used to it (and before the "real elitists" come down on you for failing, just remember they all whined and screamed at eachother too before they get their kill. We have hilarious video evidence in many cases! :D

The difference is they did their 70 attempts all in 1-2 days, while as a casual you should be spreading that out over a couple months (or more). They aren't better than you, it isn't because they had 4 Lancers (total overkill), or because they had Materia, or anything other than that they went through all those attempts and you can too. No one is stopping you from getting your personal, visceral experience in Ifrit right now as it is.

You can do it! Just believe in yourself, and try not to murder your group mates.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

I don't see having a "Normal Mode" as worthless. It could be an ideal resource for those who want to do the fight without having to depend on outside information sources (wikis, websites, videos, etc) and instead learning from their own visceral, personal experiences.

Getting your "experience" by living viscerally through others (via aforementioned sources) isn't my sort of thing. Though it IS necessary for now...

If you haven't noticed already, I am a "Knowledge is Power" type of person. I feel rewarded when I learn something by my own initiative, rather than being given the knowledge by other people. However, in a game environment as with a pacing like FFXIV, it is significantly more difficult for me to absorb that kind of information from personal experience when I am under pressure, as I've said in previous posts.



As far as I'm concerned this thread as of now no longer deals with the act of beating Ifrit or completing endgame content - I'll end up beating him eventually -but is more or less specific to how future and current endgame content should be implemented. That is to say, we're talking about how we can "open up" the endgame content more without damaging the experience for hardcore players.

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yeah, your supposed to get that visceral feeling fighting on hard though. Thats where all the rest of these dudes learned it, they went in there and tried, and died, and tested. You dont need an easy mode for that, in fact the same solutions, and tactics wouldnt be necessary on an easier mode. you could take the hit and cure, in hard mode that isnt always the case.

A:Ok guys, I think Ifrit 5 star is hard, lets do the 4 star first
other: OK!!!

*3 hours later

A:ok ,we get hang of it, lets do the real thing then!
Other: Ok!!!

*30 min later
A: WTF why it is so hard!! Lets do again!!
Other: erm boss, why would we do the 4* for hours if we still cant beat the 5*?????

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Originally Posted by Murugan

I'm sorry do you want to play World of Warcraft? I hear they are still accepting new players. It is a bad system, it doesn't matter if people still play the game not everything from WoW is a shining example of good design. People complain about Hard modes constantly in WoW. It was a cheap excuse for Blizzard to put a timesink in endgame and it ruined a great deal of the fun those encounters could have been because everyone had to do it on a crappy version first.

But hey if you want to turn this game into an extreme gear grind with no soul or enjoyment go ahead... oh wait no please don't! I don't want that and I (will be) a paying customer too. I like challenge in my games, and I like the feeling of accomplishment of beating a tough fight with my friends. Not beating a fight on varying levels of difficulty while I gear up and practice for a slightly tougher version of that same fight....

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As opposed to what, exactly? The current FFXIV is already a gear grind with no soul or enjoyment; a barren wasteland devoid of any meaningful content. You have two instanced dungeons that have no real purpose in the world (there's supposedly imperial plots that take you inside them, only one has no imperials at all, while the other has imperials that aren't even related to the end goal of the instance, and they both end with you fighting bosses that literally come out of nowhere and you kill them because they're bad guys, I guess), a bunch of world bosses you have no reason to go hunt and kill other than the fact that they exist and they drop shinies, some strongholds where your raid just stands around farming keys off of bosses and mini-bosses as they respawn in order to open chests with crappy drop rates, and a single-room boss fight whose major difficulties are related to problems with game animations and network lag more than the actual fight mechanics. And really, what motivations do you currently have to continue playing the game aside from acquiring gear and maintaining a social circle? It can't be the levelling process, where your options are to mindlessly kill the local wildlife for no purpose other than the earning of imaginary points, or the completion of your daily allotment of kill and fetch quests to the same end; there's no way in hell that's more entertaining than doing quest chains that will grant you experience, items, and money as you advance in the game's story, which leads you to instanced dungeons to raid with friends and strangers alike and preps you for the endgame where you'll finally get to make progress towards defeating the game's Big Bad.

Yoshi-P needs to hurry up and get this abortion over with so we can get acquainted with the new kid.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

MMO's didn't used to that's for sure because it doesn't make sense.

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It doesn't make sense to you and i'm sure several others but that doesn't mean that the concept makes no sense. Just because it was never done before does not mean it shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

It makes sense in a single player game because the player is controlling his own version of the game and that is all they come into contact with.

In an MMO you are playing on a virtual world with other players, if you give an easier route to the same goals then it is irrational for anyone to seek out a challenge even if one is added.

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Although a single player is interacting with hundreds of people in an MMO they can and are still controlling their own version of the game. That's how you get people at different levels of the game. End game is designed to be played with multiple players. That being said people begin to form groups (Linkshells, guilds etc). When these people progress through content they do it as ONE. So to say that various levels of difficulty makes no sense in an MMO, makes no sense....

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Put in a hard mode and an easy mode for every dungeon and unless the hard mode is not actually hard at all watch as everyone goes and does the easy mode first, gears up and then does the hard mode (unless like with Ifrit you make the easy mode not have any drops whatsoever, which I'd be totally fine with).

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If the hard mode is not actually hard why waste time doing the "easy" mode. Players will just skip to the hardmode and get the better gear right from the start. That is where the developers have to design the encounter to be more challenging. That can be done with addition of abilities and changing the learned pattern of the original encounter.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

I just don't want to have to do tiered versions of the same fight as part of some warped single encounter gear progression like in WoW because that is a horrible and lazy game design.

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You have the choice to join a LS that does not care about HM content. To continue your wow example, Blizzard gave players the choice to do content in either 10 or 25 player mode, at normal or hard difficulty for each and there are different people focusing on each of the modes offered.