What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Tama-Kanzashi

At this point I'm convinced that 95% of the time you have no idea what you are talking about.

EW is like a fresh fish, it starts out smelling mildly unpleasant and the longer you let it sit the more it starts smelling like rot and makes you want to vomit.

The only thing connecting it with wine is that it can be applied to EW like to a bad date, you can get drunk until it looks okay to you. Which I have a feeling is something far too many people here are doing, but it also puts them in the mood to come here and unload their sloshy, needlessly wordy and pseudo-intellectual stream of consciousness about why it is so great.

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Conversely, there are people who do enjoy the story, despite its flaws, without needing to be drunk - either figuratively or literally. Such as myself. Was the story perfect? No. It's probably 3rd/4th in order of enjoyment (can't decide if I like EW or SB story more). I enjoy the EW story overall. There were some pacing problems and some problems with how it explained some things. But they weren't problems to a high enough degree to impact my enjoyment of the story. But I also realize that for some people, those problems do impact their ability to enjoy the story.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

Conversely, there are people who do enjoy the story, despite its flaws, without needing to be drunk - either figuratively or literally. Such as myself. Was the story perfect? No. It's probably 3rd/4th in order of enjoyment (can't decide if I like EW or SB story more). I enjoy the EW story overall. There were some pacing problems and some problems with how it explained some things. But they weren't problems to a high enough degree to impact my enjoyment of the story. But I also realize that for some people, those problems do impact their ability to enjoy the story.

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For context, the particular poster she is responding to is in the habit of coming here (but not only) to loudly proclaim how we're just a tiny minority, how it's the best story ever, that people just wub wub WUB <333, and this then spawns counter-reactions in equal force, while he jumps around the OF trying to constantly berate criticism of the game as "toxic" and just down to a handful of complainers. Thus he garners responses like that. Is this whole dynamic the most productive or conducive to civil discussion? No, but then neither are his posts, which is rather ironic since he is given to frequent tone policing and offering unsolicited advice on how to word posts, which he himself doesn't really follow. Were people to approach this as you do, this would be a lot less common.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

If they hadn't tried to cram everything into one expansion so they could brush the whole story to the side, they could have built up Venat as a likeable character with some actual plot reasons as to why a Sundering was the only option.

But no, they didn't and the result was pure nonsense that didn't connect at all. The comic is nice, but the best thing SE could have done was not rushed the conclusion to a decade worth of story build up.

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I think they were always going to struggle with trying to pass off the deliberate genocide of an entire group of innocents as a good and necessary thing. At best, having the Sundering be a tragic accident and unintended consequence would have worked decently well - but there's no real consistency when it comes to the story.

If anyone was attempting to wipe out the Scions or a major allied City State they would be considered an outright villain regardless of how sympathetic their motives happened to be. Nor would the protagonists be expected to just roll over, die and accept it. Yet instead of applying that same stance to everyone else, we instead get some desperate attempt to pretend as if sometimes genocide is fine and perfectly acceptable.

I like consistency and if we're going to be forced to sit through lengthy foppish speeches about 'forging ahead' and a 'better tomorrow' then the least the game could do is actually operate within its supposed established moral framework across the board.

In the end nothing in this thread really matters. A series of opinions and nothing more. The game will not change. The vast majority of players will love the story regardless. You guys keep this thread alive though if it makes you feel special.

Whatever helps you get through the night. :)

I mean, it usually doesn't matter how politely someone tries to point out that this thread holds a relatively niche opinion or that, sometimes, the complaints here come off as toxic. The backlash is still just as ferocious.

The Omega quest chain would disagree, which is why I think we get comments like this because people feel threatened. Feedback was enough for them to walk back half of the reasoning for the sundering as well as make it so that the WoL can disapprove of what Venat did.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I mean, it usually doesn't matter how politely someone tries to point out that this thread holds a relatively niche opinion or that, sometimes, the complaints here come off as toxic. The backlash is still just as ferocious.

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Whenever someone comes to tell us that the opinions here are niche, no matter how polite, the intent is always the same: "you're the minority so you don't matter". Don't act like this is not the case, especially since it usually comes from Striker44 who's a known offender. Or that user just a few post above who's not even hiding it.
So yes, I understand why nobody is having it.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Whenever someone comes to tell us that the opinions here are niche, no matter how polite, the intent is always the same: "you're the minority so you don't matter".

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I can say for a fact that it's not the case, because I SHARE that opinion but am very much still aware that it's a minority.

An opinion can be valid but still niche.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The Omega quest chain would disagree, which is why I think we get comments like this because people feel threatened. Feedback was enough for them to walk back half of the reasoning for the sundering as well as make it so that the WoL can disapprove of what Venat did.

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Yep. Not to mention the existence of an emergency 'clarification' Live Letter to further elaborate on elements of the story. I don't remember anything like that happening in the immediate aftermath of previous expansions.

If the development team take our feedback on board? Great. If not, oh well - I'll just care less about the game and drift away. I'm already devoting most of my gaming time at the moment to TESO.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Whenever someone comes to tell us that the opinions here are niche, no matter how polite, the intent is always the same: "you're the minority so you don't matter". Don't act like this is not the case, especially since it usually comes from Striker44 who's a known offender. Or that user just a few post above who's not even hiding it.
So yes, I understand why nobody is having it.

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Hi :)

You can definitely scan back through my posts, because I've never said or even attempted to imply that a comment "doesn't matter" just because it's a minority opinion. My main train is to simply note that it is just an opinion and that it's both more polite and more productive to express it as such. Too frequently I see people working themselves up in this echo chamber declaring "the story is bad and the devs don't care" as if it's some objective fact (it's not), and then getting frustrated when it doesn't bring about change. I point out when someone's asking for a sweeping change to something, that's unlikely to happen when it's an opinion only shared by a very small group and would in the process alienate a much larger group.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Hi :)

You can definitely scan back through my posts, because I've never said or even attempted to imply that a comment "doesn't matter" just because it's a minority opinion. My main train is to simply note that it is just an opinion and that it's both more polite and more productive to express it as such. Too frequently I see people working themselves up in this echo chamber declaring "the story is bad and the devs don't care" as if it's some objective fact (it's not), and then getting frustrated when it doesn't bring about change. I point out when someone's asking for a sweeping change to something, that's unlikely to happen when it's an opinion only shared by a very small group and would in the process alienate a much larger group.

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The thing is, none of us know what the actual majority opinion is on the story.

Because none of us has talked with a majority of players.

So acting like those who don't like the story are the definite minority is wrong.

Some like the story, some don't like the story. Which portion is the minority is unknown and likely will be unknown for the rest of time. There will be things that would indicate such things, but nothing that we players can access that would tell us anything definite. And I doubt even SE would have data enough to prove which side is the minority.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I mean, it usually doesn't matter how politely someone tries to point out that this thread holds a relatively niche opinion or that, sometimes, the complaints here come off as toxic. The backlash is still just as ferocious.

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Doubtful. I mean, how can you call US toxic when things like this:

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In the end nothing in this thread really matters. A series of opinions and nothing more. The game will not change. The vast majority of players will love the story regardless. You guys keep this thread alive though if it makes you feel special.

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Are being said by those in the pro-Venat/pro-Endwalker camp? Betcha you were one of the updooters!

I mean, really. What exactly is giving you the moral high ground here? Literally the only purpose of this thread is to express our disappointment in the EW story. It's hardly harming anyone, and there are certainly 10 times the amount of positive pro-EW threads so I really don't see what the issue is if it's NOT that negative opinions of Endwalker aren't welcome on the Fora.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Hi :)

You can definitely scan back through my posts, because I've never said or even attempted to imply that a comment "doesn't matter" just because it's a minority opinion. My main train is to simply note that it is just an opinion and that it's both more polite and more productive to express it as such. Too frequently I see people working themselves up in this echo chamber declaring "the story is bad and the devs don't care" as if it's some objective fact (it's not), and then getting frustrated when it doesn't bring about change. I point out when someone's asking for a sweeping change to something, that's unlikely to happen when it's an opinion only shared by a very small group and would in the process alienate a much larger group.

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Huehuehue, how interesting....

Suddenly, it's YOU who've "never said that" and cannot verify evidence or provide proof! Whatever shall you do, Striker-kun?

Seriously, though. It's hardly fair for you to say that now, not when you consistently accuse others of making wild insinuations like being the "Ultimate Arbiters of Good and Bad, Right and Wrong". Where'dya get that phrase anyway, Mr. Animu Lord?

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

If they hadn't tried to cram everything into one expansion so they could brush the whole story to the side, they could have built up Venat as a likeable character with some actual plot reasons as to why a Sundering was the only option.

But no, they didn't and the result was pure nonsense that didn't connect at all. The comic is nice, but the best thing SE could have done was not rushed the conclusion to a decade worth of story build up.

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Agreed, but I also do feel like some of this was becoming...long winded? Im not saying rushing the ending was the right decision. But I also feel like there was plenty of fluff in past expansions that could have been easily cut for a more focused story around Venat and Zodiark, and the ancients on both sides, and why each side could be seen as both right and wrong. I still dont get the usefulness of the majority of stormblood outside giving us prettyboy Zenos. Had they cut out the majority of it and made shadowbringers take its place, and viseversa with EW and shadowbringers so they had more time to explore stuff between venat and the others, I feel like the ending would have felt alot better.

I think a healthy balance can be struck between 'long winded' and 'too much, too fast'. Endwalker tried to cover way too much territory within a very short period of time and didn't really give any of the regions visited their fair share time in the spotlight as a result. Some of us have been waiting years to see specific elements come into the direct spotlight only to have them fall away just as quickly as they finally pulled into the station.

The deliberate efforts to 'subvert expectations' is also arguably rubbing a decent amount of people the wrong way. We ended up fighting both Hydaelyn and Zodiark anyway so if they truly wanted to 'subvert expectations' then maybe having both team up to combat a third party threat would have caused more people to be on board with the premise of the expansion. Pretty hard to consider the story to be 'inspiring' when it's unironically trying to excuse and promote genocide as a good and necessary thing, after all.

As an aside, I'd consider that to be far 'edgier' than artwork calling out how messed up genocide actually is...

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Originally Posted by Treesus

Stormblood? What was its purpose other than Zenos?

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Ok, so, some perspective for you. ARR wasn't expected to do well. It did, so HW was greenlighted, and they had to scramble it together. Lo and behold, they dropped another deadringer of a success, so BAM make another expansion please. So the writer's had to just crap out another story.

With that in mind, Stormblood is actually pretty dang good. It's probably the expansion that was least appreciated at the time(I am guilty of yammering to all of my friends that the game is on the downhill and it only gets worse from here).

To the point though, Stormblood's purpose is to bridge the story. They were still fleshing out exactly what they wanted to do with the Ascians, and that's why we got Zenos/Omega etc. Basically it was a filler arc. A truth that would be attributed to Shadowbringers, but it's actually not true about Shadowbringers (though obviously all periphery characters in SHB are filler cast, for the most part).

We get a more real confrontation with The Empire, as opposed to what'ssupposed to be the moral/spiritual/Emperor's Throne Room sequence with the Ascians. We also get lots of Outer Eorzea/Outside of Eorzea world building.

Stormblood had a decent MSQ followed by fantastic side and .1 to .55 content. Its purpose was to be as entertaining as possible while trying new things, since they figured it would be received poorly anyway. Beyond that, just to give us stuff to chew while they fleshed out the grand story they really wanted to tell.

That's how I see it, anyway.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Doubtful. I mean, how can you call US toxic when things like this: Are being said by those in the pro-Venat/pro-Endwalker camp?

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Because it's not mutually-exclusive? I've had toxic people insult me over my opinions of the game, too. Doesn't change the fact that there have been plenty of cases where I've felt this thread went too far.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Betcha you were one of the updooters!

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Nope.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

I mean, really. What exactly is giving you the moral high ground here? Literally the only purpose of this thread is to express our disappointment in the EW story. It's hardly harming anyone

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Who said anything about "moral high ground"? I don't agree with some of the arguments being made, or (sometimes) the manner in which they're made.

Just because someone agrees that the story is bad doesn't mean that they need to agree with every single complaint made about it.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Because in hindsight, the entire Zodiark ark ended with Elidibus while Fandaniel just wanted to destroy what was left of it to doom the world.

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The worst of it is I think I might not have been as mad at Endwalker if SE had been honest about this. Oh, sure, the story would still have been... the sort of story that makes use of plot devices like mechanically inconsistent time travel, a bootstrap paradox functioning as the explanation for fundamental lore points rather than actual organic character motivations doing so, a memory wiping device with the side effect of making everyone in its radius dumb as bricks, and a race dependent Power Of Friendship whose exact effects depend entirely on the plot (I'm sorry – I can't say Endwalker writing is bad, you see, because that would deeply wound some people)... but maybe then I wouldn't have had expectations following one of my favorite stories. And I might have been able to shrug it off as just an average JRPG plot attached to an MMORPG gameplay I still enjoy, personally (hence the continued subscription in spite of the update lull that I find hits particularly hard right now for some reason).

But that's the thing. They told me we were going to get the big dramatic finale of the Hydaelyn and Zodiark arc. The big deal that had been going on more or less in the background, after years of build-up. They, quite literally, said they would give me the moon. I'm an Ascian fan – even before 5.0 I had always found them to be the most intriguing element of the story, the real larger-scale plot. I wanted to know more, what they were, what their personal differences were, because I just love villain group dynamics. Obviously, I loved most of Shadowbringers and its patches. My hype reached a fever pitch during 5.2-5.4, because I had always had a soft spot for Elidibus, and 5.2 casually dropping the lore bomb that he was quite literally Zodiark, at the same time as they introduced his counterpart as an actual human character, was huge to me – this is it, we're finally revving up the engines for the real endgame of this storyline, and my boy is finally taking centerstage after getting crucial backstory in 5.0 and the start of a character development in 5.3. 5.3 was, to me, only ever just the first act for Elidibus's character – compared to Emet-Selch fully mourning his people, dying with a smile after having recognized us as his ...very, very good friend... who had bested him and accepting to pass over the torch, Elidibus's arc was quite obviously incomplete, never recognizing us, never truly reflecting on his past self and all of those he lost, never remembering his oath or who he swore it to, dying a crying mess under the weight of his guilt, and us never getting to see him as the acting consciousness of Zodiark – there's just... so much. Literally Zodiark!!

And it wasn't just him: the end of 5.3 and patch 5.4 that followed also went and gave me three Sundered Ascians with the new context of their Shadowbringers backstory, and I loved it too – each of them with their own views on what being an Ascian meant to them, and I wanted so much more of it. Because hey, we have a number of these guys left too! Can't just ignore them! (Narrator: "They could.") And surely, now that the Unsundered were mostly gone (I was hellbent on Elidibus not being gone, either still alive in the Tower or still having part of his consciousness in Zodiark, and as it turns out I was right!...), it wasn't just Fandaniel that would have his... ah, opinion on how to proceed; what about Pashtarot, Halmarut, Altima, Deudalaphon? What do they think about it, and where does that leave them? And what about Gaia? The inclusion of G'raha as a main character left a significant precedent for making side content mandatory – surely the introduction of Loghrif, Oracle of Darkness and Almost-Heart of Zodiark was significant to the plot of Endwalker where we would fight Fandaniel and Zenos for the control of Zodiark?

I remember, right before the February 2021 Fan Fest... YoshiP said something to the effect of "feel free to have high expectations!". Look at the two paragraphs I just wrote; I felt free to have high expectations indeed! I remember all the jokes about Moonbase Ascian when Mare Lamentorum was revealed, housing what appeared to be so many Ancient concepts and records – surely even more juicy info about the Unsundered and how they coped with being the survivors of a genocide for thousands of years!

6.0 was going to rock my world so hard, you guys. I just knew I was going to sob my heart out when Elidibus finally regains control of Zodiark and sacrifices himself to save the world after having remembered Azem and his oath to them. And it was beautiful, always.

Expectations subverted!

https://i.imgur.com/HUC02rF.jpg

I realize nobody asked for this sudden outburst of Elidibus/Ascianposting, but I never asked for the Twitterpocalypse, so we'll all have to suffer through this together. It builds character, except when you're the bad people.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

6.0 was going to rock my world so hard, you guys. I just knew I was going to sob my heart out when Elidibus finally regains control of Zodiark and sacrifices himself to save the world after having remembered Azem and his oath to them. And it was beautiful, always.

Expectations subverted!

https://i.imgur.com/HUC02rF.jpg

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Yep, that was a pretty snazzy lv 84 8 man fight. :^)

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Yep, that was a pretty snazzy lv 84 8 man fight. :^)

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And who has a better story than Fandaniel the Broken in a mech suit killing himself to make way for the true plot of Endwalker: ruining the good will Shadowbringers had built up for the Ancients?

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Originally Posted by Teraq

And who has a better story than Fandaniel the Broken in a mech suit killing himself to make way for the true plot of Endwalker: ruining the good will Shadowbringers had built up for the Ancients?

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Ancients? I thought it was just an expansion explaining why Minfillia was the best Scion™. :^)

What gets me is that I honestly cannot fathom the decision making when it comes to the likes of Elidibus. It's like Yoshi-P is terrified of people rooting or liking anyone other than the Scions and City State leaders or some fluffy very minor character of little consequence. So right as a character who has been built up over time steps into the spotlight they're immediately killed off and then largely forgotten about by the ongoing narrative. Unless it's to make disparaging remarks at their expense.

Like that utterly laughable snipe from Y'shtola regarding Elidibus in 6.1 for doing the very same thing that...Hydaelyn was doing, to one of Y'shtola's closest friends no less! Oh, but of course - it's absolutely fine for someone very close to you to be manipulated and killed unnecessarily so long as 'mOmMy' is the one doing it. These same characters will lose their minds if even the most sympathetic of antagonists so much as looks at one of their friends the wrong way, though!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

What gets me is that I honestly cannot fathom the decision making when it comes to the likes of Elidibus. It's like Yoshi-P is terrified of people rooting or liking anyone other than the Scions and City State leaders or some fluffy very minor character of little consequence. So right as a character who has been built up over time steps into the spotlight they're immediately killed off and then largely forgotten about by the ongoing narrative. Unless it's to make disparaging remarks at their expense.

Like that utterly laughable snipe from Y'shtola regarding Elidibus in 6.1 for doing the very same thing that...Hydaelyn was doing, to one of Y'shtola's closest friends no less! Oh, but of course - it's absolutely fine for someone very close to you to be manipulated and killed unnecessarily so long as 'mOmMy' is the one doing it. These same characters will lose their minds if even the most sympathetic of antagonists so much as looks at one of their friends the wrong way, though!

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He simply does not and probably cannot understand what made Emet-Selch work and clearly refuses to try. At this point XIV is in it's Sticker Star phase (fourth expansion and fourth Paper Mario maybe) where the director thinks they know what players want by destroying absolutely everything that made the previous expansions work in favor of what the director personally wants, quality be damned. Spoiler alert: the game was a goddamn failure and is almost universally agreed upon. In between using a weak consumable based system for the entirety of the game and Kersti's existence, I couldn't even finish a second playthrough. Origami King and Color Splash were steps in the right direction but it's going to be take a long time for there to be a true quality Paper Mario again. Wouldn't surprise me if XIV is heading the same way.

Or maybe he just doesn't care anymore since he has his money.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

He simply does not and probably cannot understand what made Emet-Selch work and clearly refuses to try. At this point XIV is in it's Sticker Star phase (fourth expansion and fourth Paper Mario maybe) where the director thinks they know what players want by destroying absolutely everything that made the previous expansions work in favor of what the director personally wants, quality be damned. Spoiler alert: the game was a goddamn failure and is almost universally agreed upon. In between using a weak consumable based system for the entirety of the game and Kersti's existence, I couldn't even finish a second playthrough. Origami King and Color Splash were steps in the right direction but it's going to be take a long time for there to be a true quality Paper Mario again. Wouldn't surprise me if XIV is heading the same way.

Or maybe he just doesn't care anymore since he has his money.

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I think he's too obsessed with the older Final Fantasy titles. It's not exactly a secret that although they weren't free of nuance, they're mostly straight up black and white stories of good versus evil. Things get more complex in the more 'recent' main entries since the antagonists are generally more fleshed out, charismatic and sympathetic.

I also think there's a strange unwillingness to compromise. Those of us who enjoyed the Return to Ivalice and Save the Queen content are forced to lose out because the storyline was artificially ended despite being planned to last longer. Then some here have the audacity to wonder why we're so annoyed when resources are diverted into yet more fluffy pursuits that lack meaningful stakes and consequences.

FFXIV's storytelling is becoming very effete for lack of a better word. I suppose it's telling that one of the few elements that still intrigues me is the Void and that looks to be the next thing to be hastily wrapped up and resolved.

I've been having fun in TESO at least. I'll be giving 6.2 chance - mostly for the sake of my house - but if it ends up disappointing me then I'll cut my losses. I'll only be sticking around if the development team prove that they're willing to throw a bone at those of us who like more than just their clear favourites.

I have to wonder what media it is they're consuming that led them to write things the way they turned out recently. Covid pushing people in a lighter direction cannot account entirely for the sort of storytelling we've been seeing. Rather than being influenced by greater works more geared towards an adult audience like Devilman, Game of Thrones, or even recent games like FFXV and Lightning Returns, it appears the "safe" route was chosen far too frequently.

Where are they drawing inspiration from when it comes to the Void? Why is it being pushed onto us so hard early on rather than letting it come into its own relevance later on over the course of the Season 2 plot? I do not want to be over and done with it so soon, nor do I want to be teased by it and get interested in it only for 7.0 to "subvert my expectations" by taking us somewhere completely different. Why couldn't we have actually gone back to being adventurers with a new party? Why are we still keeping characters around whose arcs have long since been over?

Friday brings with it the 6.2 trailer with the Live Letter, and hopefully some kind of clue as to what we should expect. Given the photos up on the patch site I can make a reasonable prediction as to what we might see in the MSQ, though none of it is particularly exciting nor do I expect that a meaningful dialogue will occur between us and Zenos's voidsent.

As I mentioned earlier in another thread, I think that they need to take the time to consider how things feel from the player's perspective rather than a developmental one where in this case, they know what lies ahead and while they may feel assured in the current direction, there are a lot of players who don't. We want to be able to trust in them and gain some confidence back, but what we've been seeing is getting in the way of that. We'd rather not lose out on FFXIV but if things don't get better despite our attempts to call attention to the issues with this game, many people stand to leave for other games though ideally, they want to be able to play the best version of FFXIV that they don't feel they're getting.

Re-asses, reconsider, and restore our trust.

https://i.imgur.com/xZPd0P8.png

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Huehuehue, how interesting....

Suddenly, it's YOU who've "never said that" and cannot verify evidence or provide proof! Whatever shall you do, Striker-kun?

Seriously, though. It's hardly fair for you to say that now, not when you consistently accuse others of making wild insinuations like being the "Ultimate Arbiters of Good and Bad, Right and Wrong". Where'dya get that phrase anyway, Mr. Animu Lord?

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Hehe, I made that phrase up, but I kinda like it, and it seems to stick in people's minds, so...I'll go with it :)

And what's "interesting" about a fact? Seriously, go find a post of mine where I claimed someone's opinion didn't matter simply because it was a minority opinion. I notice you didn't yet. I wonder why that is?

The phrase of mine your quoting doesn't do that. It just points out people like to act as if personal opinions are facts. I'll say it again - there's a difference between something "not mattering" and someone getting themselves frustrated more and more because they refuse to consider that their opinion might be widely opposed, and then getting exasperated when the dev team doesn't change their approach to suit them.

Random note:

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...the true plot of Endwalker: ruining the good will Shadowbringers had built up for the Ancients?

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Like that utterly laughable snipe from Y'shtola regarding Elidibus in 6.1 for doing the very same thing that...

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These are just from the last single page. They're opinions masquerading as facts by people declaring themselves those very arbiters of right and wrong ;)

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The worst of it is I think I might not have been as mad at Endwalker if SE had been honest about this...They told me we were going to get the big dramatic finale of the Hydaelyn and Zodiark arc. The big deal that had been going on more or less in the background, after years of build-up. They, quite literally, said they would give me the moon.

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They were honest about that and gave you all of those things. Read the rest of that post to see how it ultimately devolves into the usual "well, actually they just wrote a different story than the one I wanted them to write...the nerve of those authors...they must be bad."

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while they may feel assured in the current direction, there are a lot of players who don't. We want to be able to trust in them and gain some confidence back, but what we've been seeing is getting in the way of that. We'd rather not lose out on FFXIV but if things don't get better despite our attempts to call attention to the issues with this game, many people stand to leave for other games though ideally, they want to be able to play the best version of FFXIV that they don't feel they're getting.

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And this one takes the cake, from one of our two most prominent you-know-what's. Pretending that this niche opinion in this echo chamber is somehow the general feeling, which is only going to lead to more frustration when it doesn't lead anywhere since it isn't the general feeling. There are hundreds of thousands of active players in this game. There will technically be "a lot" of anything on any topic for pure numbers. But as a portion of the playerbase? Declaring things "issues" just because you personally think they are doesn't make them so. Most people still completely trust the dev team and have a lot of confidence in them. EW knocked it out of the park for them. They already feeling their playing if not the "best" version of FFXIV, then at least a much, much, much more than satisfactory one. Risking alienating all of those people just to please a minuscule minority that creates their own echo chamber would be a horrible business decision.

Random suggestion: You should consult this post rather than venting at us to remind us our opinions are our opinions and throwing out claims about majorities, minuscule minorities and niches and whatnot. There's an awful lot in your post you're averring but, contrary to your own suggested best practice, you do not preface your words as opinions or in the language you suggested people use in the past. Guess you're exempt from the Striker bible on how to forum post.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

you-know-what's.

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Huh? No, actually, I don't know what you're referring to and I very much doubt that the majority do either.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Random note:





These are just from the last single page. They're opinions masquerading as facts by people declaring themselves those very arbiters of right and wrong ;)



They were honest about that and gave you all of those things. Read the rest of that post to see how it ultimately devolves into the usual "well, actually they just wrote a different story than the one I wanted them to write...the nerve of those authors...they must be bad."



And this one takes the cake, from one of our two most prominent you-know-what's. Pretending that this niche opinion in this echo chamber is somehow the general feeling, which is only going to lead to more frustration when it doesn't lead anywhere since it isn't the general feeling. There are hundreds of thousands of active players in this game. There will technically be "a lot" of anything on any topic for pure numbers. But as a portion of the playerbase? Declaring things "issues" just because you personally think they are doesn't make them so. Most people still completely trust the dev team and have a lot of confidence in them. EW knocked it out of the park for them. They already feeling their playing if not the "best" version of FFXIV, then at least a much, much, much more than satisfactory one. Risking alienating all of those people just to please a minuscule minority that creates their own echo chamber would be a horrible business decision.

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Don't try to reason with these people man. They just spent over 600 pages on a forum trying to jam their opinion down the throat of others. They don't realize it won't change a thing or maybe they do and that really bothers them. Endwalker was absolutely amazing. I loved every single minute of it. I am in the majority. Most people I have talked to LOVED the expansion story/finale. I have been playing since 1.0. The opinions of others will never change that regardless of how adamant they are or how hard they choose to beat a dead horse.

I think it is always very strange when the same handful of posters - who seemingly feel compelled to linger and read through this thread to keep up to date with what the supposed, irrelevant 'minority' is saying - falsely attempt to proclaim that every post here is a demand rather than feedback. I wonder if this is a case of deflection at play? Many times, I have found that people in this game's community love to partake of the very things that they accuse others of doing.

At this point, it's actually getting a bit creepy to see how obsessive some posters have become when it comes to trying to find new ways to dismiss and invalidate what is stated throughout this thread. Be it by accusing posters here of being alts of one another, attempting to get very nasty with targeted personal attacks/threats or poison the well with irrelevant things that have no relation to what is being discussed at the time.

Still, if nothing else such posts help make the thread even bigger and increase the chances of more people seeing it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Don't try to reason with these people man. They just spent over 600 pages on a forum trying to jam their opinion down the throat of others. They don't realize it won't change a thing or maybe they do and that really bothers them. Endwalker was absolutely amazing. I loved every single minute of it. I am in the majority. Most people I have talked to LOVED the expansion story/finale. I have been playing since 1.0. The opinions of others will never change that regardless of how adamant they are or how hard they choose to beat a dead horse.

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o/ Striker #2. If it's a tiny irrelevant minority that'll never reach the developers, continue enjoying the game I suppose. Not sure what saying this to us accomplishes. Do you want tribute or ritual deference or something? Genuflection? A confession of our sins for doubting the revered EW? Whipping ourselves until the words "EW #1 FAN" are formed on our backs, before it congeals into a bloody mess? Pray to Yoshi so he can emerge as a primal and punish the unfaithful?

Because if anything, I could throw this right back at you, and say maybe you realise that there is a possibility that some of the feedback could get through and this bothers you. If not, this really just comes across as a rather churlish attempt at putting the heretics in their place to me. People here post for a variety of reasons and with differing expectations. I have now offered my thoughts in the perhaps vain hope that the devs will do something with that in terms of future writing, and I am here for the chat until 6.2 rolls around to see how it goes. Not sure what your problem is, if I am quite honest. You like EW? Great. What am I meant to do with that? I'm not going to stop posting here or in other threads, or alter my thoughts on the topic, just because you and others liked EW or don't like the fact that it has its critics. And although Mr Striker won't like this, there won't always be an "IMO" in there - even he seems to forget that one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Don't try to reason with these people man. They just spent over 600 pages on a forum trying to jam their opinion down the throat of others. They don't realize it won't change a thing or maybe they do and that really bothers them. Endwalker was absolutely amazing. I loved every single minute of it. I am in the majority. Most people I have talked to LOVED the expansion story/finale. I have been playing since 1.0. The opinions of others will never change that regardless of how adamant they are or how hard they choose to beat a dead horse.

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If it was so great then you have no reason to get so triggered over a single thread that says it wasn't. You wouldn't feel the need to constantly reassure others that the evil minority doesn't matter.
Go make your own thread where you can drink all the Endwalker-flavored koolaid in peace if it is so great, where you can gild each others backsides over that opinion.

Or maybe you are just scared that you will not get the responses you are hoping for, or you will not get the attention you want. After all, coming here and posting insults calling everything we say meaningless nets you plenty of attention, doesn't it? I wager that's why some people keep coming back here to repeat that same mantra over and over, they want attention, no matter how negative.

If everything was so perfect, then you would not need to feel threatened enough by us to keep coming back. It just makes you look like an impertinent child.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Don't try to reason with these people man. They just spent over 600 pages on a forum trying to jam their opinion down the throat of others. They don't realize it won't change a thing or maybe they do and that really bothers them. Endwalker was absolutely amazing. I loved every single minute of it. I am in the majority. Most people I have talked to LOVED the expansion story/finale. I have been playing since 1.0. The opinions of others will never change that regardless of how adamant they are or how hard they choose to beat a dead horse.

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I don't like the Ascians like some of my fellow posters who take issue the with story. I also don't like Hydaelyn. I believe both are objectively in the wrong as it stands right now. That being said, you're being a massive hypocrite.

"These people" made a thread where they can discuss what they consider to be a subpar story and lackluster writing. They are no more jamming their opinions down everyone's throats than you and the rest are. They think you're fools for believing they're wrong. You think they're fools for believing you're wrong, that's the human condition. But how can you seriously walk in here to debate people that you know disagree with you and then get angry and offended when they won't change their mind? That's the recurring theme I see throughout this thread despite joining fairly late in the discussion.

Everything your post ridicules them for is the SAME. EXACT. THING. That you yourself are doing when you participate in this thread. Don't go to a person's house to start an argument with them and then act like they're the bad guy or being unreasonable when they refuse to capitulate.

It kind of reminds me of this:

https://c.tenor.com/mweqSDA_s_gAAAAC...hrones-got.gif

But instead with the refrain being: IMO. IMO. IMO.

As always, I find accusations of this thread being an echo chamber to be disingenuous. For starters, although there's some overlap here and there many posters have very different reasons for finding Endwalker to be a disappointing and lacklustre experience.

This forum is specifically designed for feedback to be posted here. Whether the development team choose to do anything with it or even end up seeing it is another matter entirely though some of us have enough investment in the game as a whole that we'd rather continue to say our piece rather than stay silent. To some extent it's also a matter of carrying the torch for those who share similar concerns but who are either taking a break or have quit entirely.

Furthermore, the only thing any of us here are obligated to do is to follow the established code of conduct. We're under no obligation to bend to the whims of those who partake as tone and content policing as a hobby or who bizarrely demand that every post is adorned with 'IN MY OPINION' as if that isn't something that cannot be reasonably inferred.

It's hard to be an echo chamber when the only thing most people agree on is that EW wasn't satisfactory. I find a lot of the "fix its" in this thread just as terrible, but I also think people were teens going through ARR-SB, and probably have a skewed perspective on how good (or coherent) the narrative has been.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Don't try to reason with these people man. They just spent over 600 pages on a forum trying to jam their opinion down the throat of others. They don't realize it won't change a thing or maybe they do and that really bothers them. Endwalker was absolutely amazing. I loved every single minute of it. I am in the majority. Most people I have talked to LOVED the expansion story/finale. I have been playing since 1.0. The opinions of others will never change that regardless of how adamant they are or how hard they choose to beat a dead horse.

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Nobody wants anyones opinion to change, I'd you're sated by entry level shonen macguffin storytelling that's fine but doesnt mean any of us have to be.

When posters such as yourself come into threads like this and essentially ignore 600 pages of complex discourse and start flailing around proclaiming "NoThInG Is WrOnG I LOVE GAME" you really dont do yourself any favours. People who try to derail this thread never actually come forth with any kind of compelling arguments or discussion, it's always "I liked it so you're wrong". My kid is a single digit age and is more mature than that.

The liberation of Ala Mhigo was teased as far back as the first story quest in 1.0 where the Circle of Knowing are all seen together. For that reason alone I can't see Stormblood as filler.
It was our only satisfactory conflict against Garlean after the Meteor arc too. To think 6.0 could have peaked that if they didn't completely piss on the opportunity by flattening Garlemald off-screen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jagick

Don't go to a person's house to start an argument with them and then act like they're the bad guy or being unreasonable when they refuse to capitulate.

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*Looks at how other MMOs and IPs have fallen*
*sensible chuckle*
Sorry, I think irony is funny. lol