Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU

is a convincing argument against damage meters.

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I listened to this video and, for context, this is coming from someone who has not played WoW and only know bits and pieces said by other people, however, that video essay was, to be blunt, terrible.

Why? It never addressed the question posited by the video, which is the video title itself:

"Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft"

The video has several chapters, each one going deep into each individual topic, however, they never bought it all back to the original question. This means, it is literally 80 minutes of someone talking about the history of WoW and addons, but never tied it on. They talked about WoW classic, again, never bought it back to the main point. Even in the conclusion of the video, this link was never made.

So, "Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft"? Who knows because the video certainly didn't explain why and made no effort to swing one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

Without a point of reference 'your' numbers are pointless. What good would it be to know you did (lets say) 5,000 dps without knowing 5000 out of what, 5,000, 10,000, 50,000?
And if your 'log' includes the raids actions and buff alignments, the numbers you'd get would be skewed anyway.

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Lol fair regarding damage numbers at least, a little too eager to find a middle ground other than only adding parses to savage/ultimate content.

At the very least, a personal log could at least show the % of the boss's HP that you took down, things like uptime and downtime analysis, how many times you've interrupted your own casts, etc.

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Originally Posted by Tyjacon

Where did I say he doesn't play his own game? He does.
He's even been known to PVP and gank other players.
Please stop putting words in my mouth, they taste bad.

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Yet you never mentioned it

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Oh I beg to differ.

As has been said, but bears repeating, the day that dps meters are allowed, you will have THAT GUY spamming meters and screaming abuse at people..............in Sastasha.

Thank you, no.

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Exactly. For you who think it wouldn't change FFXIV for the worse, they must have not played WoW and seen the cesspool it has become, or, they did play WoW and want FFXIV to be like that.
I do not want any part of that BS for FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Dude...I can practically solo a dungeon on my undergeared warrior. Who the hell cares if a new player isn't playing "perfectly"

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Why do you keep bringing new players into this argument?

People aren't discussing new players to the game, new is before you get to max level

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

Exactly. For you who think it wouldn't change FFXIV for the worse, they must have not played WoW and seen the cesspool it has become, or, they did play WoW and want FFXIV to be like that.
I do not want any part of that BS for FFXIV.

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I've not seen wow be like that, but I've seen plenty of sexual harassment take place in ff14 it self

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

..and we love it that way.

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Agreed. Even better, PvP and PvE are different systems, and balancing one doesn't affect the other. Also, no open-world ganking of players who don't want to fight other players. You have to go to the PvP area to PvP, and everyone else there is looking to kill you, too. No haven for people who just want to gank people who don't even want to fight you.

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

Exactly. For you who think it wouldn't change FFXIV for the worse, they must have not played WoW and seen the cesspool it has become, or, they did play WoW and want FFXIV to be like that.
I do not want any part of that BS for FFXIV.

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Lol. It's like a broken record in here. Once again, I ask where the TOS went with the implementation of in game parsers, in a game where hardly anyone talks in duty finder anyways. The random person screeching in freaking Sastasha of all things is going to be so incredibly niche and such an extraordinary outlier that it's such a silly argument to try to make.

A common thing I've seen on this board said is the Tales of Duty Finder cases are very rare and outliers of what actually goes on in the game... but the way y'all are talking is like someone's going to be screeching in every other dungeon and I'm just like ???? Which is it?

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Originally Posted by raelgun

I've not seen wow be like that, but I've seen plenty of sexual harassment take place in ff14 it self

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WoW lives about as rent-free in some 14 players' heads as Firemage lives in some posters' heads lol.
Also it's funny that personal biases, opinions, and experiences for some reason overwrites other peoples'.

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

Agreed. Even better, PvP and PvE are different systems, and balancing one doesn't affect the other. Also, no open-world ganking of players who don't want to fight other players. You have to go to the PvP area to PvP, and everyone else there is looking to kill you, too. No haven for people who just want to gank people who don't even want to fight you.

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I'm... not sure what your point is at all with this. The people in WoW who have to deal with world PvP chose to deal with that by picking a server that has world PvP. Genuine question, have you actually played WoW?

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Genuine question, have you actually played WoW?

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Jan 28 2005 to about 2 months into Shadowlands. Long enough to suit you?
I know exactly what WoW has turned into, and damage meters and the attitudes that some of you dearly want to adopt is a major part of WHY people have left that game in droves. They turned a game that was fun in 2010 to a game that by 2015 was turning into "Sorry, we won't invite you for a group because your class is 5% behind others" and "How dare you not know the dungeon inside and out the first time you have ever run it!!!" The players mathed all the fun out of the game.
YMMV.

I don't want any part of that progression applied to FFXIV. So far the devs have watched and gotten the right lessons from watching other games struggle, and have realized where the money is, and it's not in allowing tryhards to run off all the non-tryhards, and I'm not talking about 'bads' here.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Dude...I can practically solo a dungeon on my undergeared warrior. Who the hell cares if a new player isn't playing "perfectly"

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I have never said perfectly. Are you capable of understanding that different words have different meaning?

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Yet you never mentioned it

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Didn't think I had to ..... my comment wasn't about Yoshi in particular, but
For your benefit; NEWS FLASH ..... Yoshi plays FFXIV.

I also didn't mention that Yoshi was fascinated by the ability to control a character on a television when he was younger, but he was .

Or how he was bewildered by the fact a player couldn't ride a chocobo in the 1.0 version of the game.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Why do you keep bringing new players into this argument?

People aren't discussing new players to the game, new is before you get to max level

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Plenty of new and casual players in the "expert" roulettes every day. I'm not overly concerned about peoples performance in dungeons that you can sleep walk through.

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

I don't want any part of that progression applied to FFXIV. So far the devs have watched and gotten the right lessons from watching other games struggle, and have realized where the money is, and it's not in allowing tryhards to run off all the non-tryhards, and I'm not talking about 'bads' here.

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Except that by default this isn't such a game and the ToS + dev outlook on things is very, very different.

We don't have an Ion or whatever his name is on our dev team. That alone makes such a big difference in countering that sort of future. Among many other things, I'm sure. Like, I'm all for cautionary tales, but we shouldn't forget this game's own context and history.

Plus, with people who remember how those days in WoW are like and are so against this idea in the first place, I highly doubt toxicity coming from parses would ever even be tolerated, so you don't have much to fear.

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I'm not watching an hour+ long video, but WoW's toxicity isn't only because of parsing tools.

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I did..if YOU had, youd not be saying that.

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I know exactly what WoW is like, I don't have to waste my time on an hour long video to see it.

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So do I. That video is dead on. Then again i had the patience to actually listen to what they had to say.

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And lol, number agenda? Excuse me?

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Go back, exercise some patience...."stay a while and listen"

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This makes me think on how many people excuse and promote laissez-faire lazy playstyles and even resist the suggestion of making Hall of the Novice or any potential subsequent versions of it mandatory for new players.

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Forcing people to do content doesnt make it good or useful. You should not have to "sit a test and be assessed' to play a damned VIDEO GAME.

Ill also notice that TWICE in this thread and others, I have seen posters whine because they cant access my FFlogs to pick me apart..proving my point that they are willing to abuse and MISUSE the data in FFLogs to denigrate others...kinda proves my point, doesnt it?.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I did..if YOU had, youd not be saying that.



So do I. That video is dead on. Then again i had the patience to actually listen to what they had to say.



Go back, exercise some patience...."stay a while and listen"



Forcing people to do content doesnt make it good or useful. You should not have to "sit a test and be assessed' to play a damned VIDEO GAME.

Ill also notice that TWICE in this thread and others, I have seen posters whine because they cant access my FFlogs to pick me apart..proving my point that they are willing to abuse and MISUSE the data in FFLogs to denigrate others...kinda proves my point, doesnt it?.

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Your value on this matter is equivalent to your skill

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Ill also notice that TWICE in this thread and others, I have seen posters whine because they cant access my FFlogs to pick me apart..proving my point that they are willing to abuse and MISUSE the data in FFLogs to denigrate others...kinda proves my point, doesnt it?.

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Does it though? The forum isnt the same place as the ingame chat. The forums are a place to thoroughly discuss and chew through topics, ingame chat isnt. The amount of times I've read on this forum how different the ingame climate is compared to the forum is staggering but now suddenly you want to paint it as one and the same?

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Originally Posted by KeshLives

Jan 28 2005 to about 2 months into Shadowlands. Long enough to suit you?
I know exactly what WoW has turned into, and damage meters and the attitudes that some of you dearly want to adopt is a major part of WHY people have left that game in droves. They turned a game that was fun in 2010 to a game that by 2015 was turning into "Sorry, we won't invite you for a group because your class is 5% behind others" and "How dare you not know the dungeon inside and out the first time you have ever run it!!!" The players mathed all the fun out of the game.
YMMV.

I don't want any part of that progression applied to FFXIV. So far the devs have watched and gotten the right lessons from watching other games struggle, and have realized where the money is, and it's not in allowing tryhards to run off all the non-tryhards, and I'm not talking about 'bads' here.

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"dearly want to adopt" Oh please, would you all stop with this crap, it just makes you look like you're either not reading and understanding the replies in this thread, or you're twisting things around to make it seem like your argument is more valid than it actually is.

WoW has lost players in droves for multiple reasons, and putting the blame on parsing as a "major" reason why people left is so silly. The fiasco with Blizzard's harassment crap and multiple horrendous expansions were much larger issues than people parsing and theorycrafting, which, by the way, existed in the game as early as WotLK. It's been there for AGES and people tout WotLK as one of the best expansions in WoW's history. Icy-veins started in 2011, in fact. Nine years before Shadowlands.

And you clearly don't raid in 14 either (which isn't an attack on you or anyone else before this gets twisted), because optimizing and all that stuff you're scared of coming here *already exists in the game*. And you know what? The crowd that's going to do that content is pretty separate from the vast majority of the playerbase. Do you realize how small the raiding community in 14 actually is? Tryhards aren't going to be running off anyone, especially when if they try to spout off on people they're going to get suspended/banned. You just sound like you're trying to put boogiemen in places where they're not actually going to be.

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I did..if YOU had, youd not be saying that.



So do I. That video is dead on. Then again i had the patience to actually listen to what they had to say.

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We've already been over this: Your experience =/= objective fact, your experience is anecdotal and your own personal experience, many other people have different experiences. I've played a LOT of WoW and I RARELY ran into these issues that you claim are rampant and happened constantly. From Dungeon Finder to pugging raids, I hardly ever saw anyone screaming about DPS, except when someone was legit sandbagging (read: just following along, not using abilities, and refusing to actually play the game, which... you don't exactly need Recount or whatever other parses exist now to see that). Actually I had my own guild get aggravated because I was joking with a cohealer about our healing (because she was beating me in healing and I was trying my best to overtake her) and I was told to not talk about parses because it might make someone feel bad.

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Forcing people to do content doesnt make it good or useful. You should not have to "sit a test and be assessed' to play a damned VIDEO GAME.

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HotN isn't an assessment or a test, what? It's a tutorial, which many games have.

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Ill also notice that TWICE in this thread and others, I have seen posters whine because they cant access my FFlogs to pick me apart..proving my point that they are willing to abuse and MISUSE the data in FFLogs to denigrate others...kinda proves my point, doesnt it?.

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Maybe because it's literally the subject of the thread and seeing if you actually raid or not is helpful to know where your experience is on this matter.

At the end of the day, none of this matters, in game parsing tools aren't going to be added and we all know it. But using WoW as a boogieman, blaming a parsing tool for idiots misusing it, and using personal experience as objective fact and not just as anecdotal experience to explain your standpoint is silly.

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Your value on this matter is equivalent to your skill

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I was wondering when you would chime in. Seeing as you have no way of knowing in any case, the comment is moot.

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WoW has lost players in droves for multiple reasons, and putting the blame on parsing as a "major" reason why people left is so silly. The fiasco with Blizzard's harassment crap and multiple horrendous expansions were much larger issues than people parsing and theorycrafting, which, by the way, existed in the game as early as WotLK. It's been there for AGES and people tout WotLK as one of the best expansions in WoW's history. Icy-veins started in 2011, in fact. Nine years before Shadowlands.

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Oddly enough, the video I posted covers that...........in detail.

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We've already been over this: Your experience =/= objective fact, your experience is anecdotal and your own personal experience, many other people have different experiences. I've played a LOT of WoW and I RARELY ran into these issues that you claim are rampant and happened constantly

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On this i willingly concede. You may dismiss what I have seen as "anecdotal"..yet I can replicate these occurrences with other players who will happily recount THEIRS as well. I submit that the fact it didnt happen to you is not evidence it didnt happen.

This is from GameFaqs, draw your own conclusions

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Damage meters WILL increase the competitiveness of the game environment, as it gives players an easy metric to compare each other. Even if the intent is to provide a good tool for analysis, they're inevitably misused. They're also VERY hard to get rid of. Even in games where damage meters are forbidden (FFXIV), people still sneak in their own parsing tools (DPS meter) and compare performance; still, making them less accessible at least slows down their influence.

This competition, rather than encouraging teamwork, is what mostly contributes to toxicity in online communities. Essentially, the tool is NOT the problem; it's the community and their need to be on top individually rather than as a group. The damage meter is just the tool which gives the community an avenue to indulge in toxic behaviour

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In this very thread, we have the term "bads" being thrown around, which illustrates my point on dps numbers giving rise to a "Im superior to them so its fine for me to scream abuse at them" mentality.

I also submit that, as with any tool, regardless of what it is, the old adage "If it can be abused or misused, it will be" holds true. I agree you do not share my conclusions, but at the same time it would be..unwise..to dismiss them out of hand.

Vels Rules: Book One Page Ten: "It is foolish to ignore what is in front of you, even if you disagree with it. The messenger is not the message"

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I was wondering when you would chime in. Seeing as you have no way of knowing in any case, the comment is moot.



Oddly enough, the video I posted covers that...........in detail.



On this i willingly concede. You may dismiss what I have seen as "anecdotal"..yet I can replicate these occurrences with other players who will happily recount THEIRS as well. I submit that the fact it didnt happen to you is not evidence it didnt happen.

This is from GameFaqs, draw your own conclusions



In this very thread, we have the term "bads" being thrown around, which illustrates my point on dps numbers giving rise to a "Im superior to them so its fine for me to scream abuse at them" mentality.

I also submit that, as with any tool, regardless of what it is, the old adage "If it can be abused or misused, it will be" holds true. I agree you do not share my conclusions, but at the same time it would be..unwise..to dismiss them out of hand.

Vels Rules: Book One Page Ten: "It is foolish to ignore what is in front of you, even if you disagree with it. The messenger is not the message"

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What do you think would happen if I pop off ingame on somebody for failing a mechanic right now? I would catch a swift journey to GM gaol. Why do you pretend popping off on someone's dps numbers in the case an official parser gets introduced would lead to a different outcome?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I was wondering when you would chime in. Seeing as you have no way of knowing in any case, the comment is moot.

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You mean your comments are moot actually, as you have yet to show you have value in discussing this matter

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On this i willingly concede. You may dismiss what I have seen as "anecdotal"..yet I can replicate these occurrences with other players who will happily recount THEIRS as well. I submit that the fact it didnt happen to you is not evidence it didnt happen.

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I do not dismiss what you said at all, I fully believe it happened. My issue is that unfortunately, anecdotal evidence doesn't mean something will happen or happens on a daily basis, I take it more of a "this is what we should watch out for and try to prevent from happening if parsing tools were added". Cautionary tales that are worth listening to.

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snipped the quote you quoted for character limit.[/B].

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While I don't necessarily disagree with this, I do want to point out that 14's community is generally pretty intolerant of this sort of stuff. I'm willing to bet anyone who tries pulling this crap in normal duty stuff around the more casual or anti-raid crowd is going to get blasted out of the game. 14's community, while I do think has its own brand of toxicity, is not WoW's. If anything, the passive aggressive underbelly of our community would grow more passive aggressive (my theory, anyways).

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In this very thread, we have the term "bads" being thrown around, which illustrates my point on dps numbers giving rise to a "Im superior to them so its fine for me to scream abuse at them" mentality.

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I hope you'll at least agree with me that the likes of Firemage are definitely outliers and not the view of every pro-parsing person in the thread, nor that everyone will suddenly become like that if they were added to the game. The only time I personally would refer to someone as a bad is if they're literally leeching off the rest of the group and expecting a free ride. I do not think people that are new and learning and trying are bads. They MIGHT be bad at the game for the moment, but they're not A BAD, if that makes sense lol.

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I also submit that, as with any tool, regardless of what it is, the old adage "If it can be abused or misused, it will be" holds true. I agree you do not share my conclusions, but at the same time it would be..unwise..to dismiss them out of hand.

Vels Rules: snip for character limit

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My issue with this is for starters I am not dismissing your conclusions, and I apologize if that's how I'm coming across, but a lot of this thread has basically felt like various things I and others have said have been twisted out of context and that people are putting their hands over their ears screaming "blah blah blah", and it goes from exasperating to frustrating. Again, apologies if I'm coming across as antagonistic or dismissive, as that is not my intent and does not foster conversation or debate. And second, I find it really hard to prevent something because of the potential for misusing, when there is a lot of objectively good potential for actually using it.

For the record, I freely invite anyone to look at my own logs. They're garbage LOL, as I tend to focus on run safety than DPS, and even then when it's safe I make mistakes all the time. I'm a regular graylet sometimes greenlet and I've *always* been terrible at DPSing, both in 14 and WoW. Dunno how I was in ESO because I wasn't aware of any damage meters there, nor did I ever really see anyone talking about DPS all that much.

My cohealer described herself as "a white mage who probably makes the sage work too hard" the other day lmao

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Originally Posted by Saraide

What do you think would happen if I pop off ingame on somebody for failing a mechanic right now? I would catch a swift journey to GM gaol. Why do you pretend popping off on someone's dps numbers in the case an official parser gets introduced would lead to a different outcome?

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I think it just means that kind of behavior would just occur more frequently, even with GMs getting involved. We already have a weird distinction between actual advice and being toxic within this community so that fine line is just going to be such a mess. Realistically us smelly gamers are going to ruin it for the rest of the people that actually do use it for what its intended for, and I think its because of that extra headache the dev team doesnt want to deal with it. Its already been proven multiple times in other games, its not as if this is an entirely alien concept that misuse of parsing is something that will happen more frequently.

And again, yes we have ToS and ideally we would expect that it will be enforced but would you really think they'll want to risk more drama to happen for the sake of the few who care about their raiding? If I was in charge of making the rules, I would definitely want to make precautions necessary to avoid any unnecessary issues rather than potentially causing more.

I already heard somebody bring up personal damage meters which I think is a fine idea, if the intention IS for personal use.

I have said sure it does happen, but if we are being fair it does not happen majority of the time unless the player that is happening too is grossly doing something to warrant it being brought up at a higher then avg frequency. Should we really bar the use of the a tool because some players may get picked on at the higher rate then the avg? Or should we just allow the ToS to protect those that need the extra layer of protection?

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You mean your comments are moot actually, as you have yet to show you have value in discussing this matter

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Id discuss this with you, but Im busy rearranging my socks, which, trust me, is FAR more interesting....:D:D:D:D:D

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I think it just means that kind of behavior would just occur more frequently, even with GMs getting involved. We already have a weird distinction between actual advice and being toxic within this community so that fine line is just going to be such a mess. Realistically us smelly gamers are going to ruin it for the rest of the people that actually do use it for what its intended for, and I think its because of that extra headache the dev team doesnt want to deal with it. Its already been proven multiple times in other games, its not as if this is an entirely alien concept that misuse of parsing is something that will happen more frequently.

And again, yes we have ToS and ideally we would expect that it will be enforced but would you really think they'll want to risk more drama to happen for the sake of the few who care about their raiding? If I was in charge of making the rules, I would definitely want to make I take precautions necessary to avoid any unnecessary issues rather than potentially causing more.

I already heard somebody bring up personal damage meters which I think is a fine idea, if the intention IS for personal use.

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I mean I'd freely agree with this if 14's community wasn't so weird to begin with. 14's community is a weird MMO outlier where the players themselves are pretty intolerant of rule breaking, ranging from legitimate reports of toxicity to idiots who cry when someone offers help (in a genuinely non-hostile manner), and the GMs are really active with rule enforcement (except in those frustrating times where stalkers manage to keep getting away with their crap... >_> ). I genuinely don't think much would change at all, and things definitely wouldn't change if parsing tools were ONLY added to extremes, savage, and ultimates.

At the very least, surely most of us can agree that only content with enrage timers is a more fair middle ground for adding parsing tools? It doesn't affect the more casual or anti-raid crowd who doesn't do that content anyways, and people who routinely do that content are quite likely to already be running or have access to ACT anyways.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Id discuss this with you, but Im busy rearranging my socks, which, trust me, is FAR more interesting....:D:D:D:D:D

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Bro I'm so glad I mostly only have one type of sock that I wear, so at least I don't have to sort them ._. I freaking hate dealing with laundry.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Id discuss this with you, but Im busy rearranging my socks, which, trust me, is FAR more interesting....:D:D:D:D:D

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Your attempt to troll is poor. Anyway there is no discussion to be had, as you have nothing of value to contribute

Zebraoracle: Noted with thanks. I merely wished to post counter arguments, and in all truth am enjoying your feedback.

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Cautionary tales that are worth listening to.

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They are indeed.

My thanks for hearing me out. One thing: yes yes I know Im going back to it, but though the video itself is long, you dont need to watch it as really the screen graphics are placeholders, this is more one to listen to. I accept the time involved, but in all truth, I really do recommend it.

Your call, of course :)

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Bro I'm so glad I mostly only have one type of sock that I wear, so at least I don't have to sort them ._. I freaking hate dealing with laundry.

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Life of a bachelor in all its glory

https://media.tenor.com/PoYAvAJAlokAAAAd/cats-socks.gif

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Your attempt to troll is poor. Anyway there is no discussion to be had, as you have nothing of value to contribute

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Yet here you are replying to me. Ive spoken to answering machines that make more sense than you ever do. ;);););)

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Yet here you are replying to me. Ive spoken to answering machines that make more sense than you ever do. ;);););)

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I'm just informing you of your place. You should be grateful

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Originally Posted by FireMage

I'm just informing you of your place. You should be grateful

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My place? Its in Australia. Need me to show you where it is on a map?

I understand the stance of, not wanting to add something that would increase overall harassment. I willing to agree that if a tool was official then just by virtue of it being more readily available cases of abuse will raise. I have always wondered and wish we could get the metrics regarding GM reports in WoW pre hyper prevalence of parsing verse post what is the overall general percentage of actionable and non actionable reports in relation to player count. While, I have no means to prove it I still stand by my stance that overall positive or at the very least neutral encounters regarding parsing far outweigh the negative ones. Just the perception or stimga around the negative encounters shines through especially the more horrendous cases that involve stalking, harassment, mass black listing / reporting.

I do understand SE likes to take a throw the kitchen sink out approach to harassment, look at feast chat removal. They do have what appears to be a zero tolerance policy. I just for the life of me do not understand how people with a straight face can say it is not worth having a meter for all players not just PC players because it will be abused by players. If someone wants to pull meters in lowbie content report and move on. Sure we may get that one player flexing on other classes that do nor have AoE in lowbie content, but I really doubt it will be that large of an issue. Though if you are saying one time is far too many then fair.

I know bashing FireMage is the favoured pastime here on the official forums, but he did raise a valid point earlier, why do parts of the community allow (or actively encourage) people that refuse to contribute when queueing up for a team activity? Now, I'm not talking about the sprouts, or the newbies, or the "bads", I'm talking about those who refuse to contribute at all.

Why is it wrong to call out the RPR who's standing in the corner and facing the wall in an alliance raid until the boss is dead? Why is it bad to ask the SMN what they're doing when they're on /follow until they die and then they release to the start of the entrance? Why is it a problem to call out the SAM that gets angry because someone else accidentally killed them and then refuses to take any raise?

When will the community response to these actions stop being "Just carry them lmao" and become "Don't waste our time, leecher"?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I know bashing FireMage is the favoured pastime here on the official forums, but he did raise a valid point earlier, why do parts of the community allow (or actively encourage) people that refuse to contribute when queueing up for a team activity? Now, I'm not talking about the sprouts, or the newbies, or the "bads", I'm talking about those who refuse to contribute at all.

Why is it wrong to call out the RPR who's standing in the corner and facing the wall in an alliance raid until the boss is dead? Why is it bad to ask the SMN what they're doing when they're on /follow until they die and then they release to the start of the entrance? Why is it a problem to call out the SAM that gets angry because someone else accidentally killed them and then refuses to take any raise?

When will the community response to these actions stop being "Just carry them lmao" and become "Don't waste our time, leecher"?

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The community should never condone active leeching. None of the listed activities are ok, and I would push for these members to be removed from the group were I to notice it.

A damage meter literally does not solve this issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

The community should never condone active leeching. None of the listed activities are ok, and I would push for these members to be removed from the group were I to notice it.

A damage meter literally does not solve this issue.

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Active leeching is a lot more than what was described

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

The community should never condone active leeching. None of the listed activities are ok, and I would push for these members to be removed from the group were I to notice it.

A damage meter literally does not solve this issue.

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it does not solve the issues, but it let you see them more easily. Sure is more easy to notice someone deal no damage with a dps bar than just checking behind me if one of the other 24 players is a SAM hiding behind the magical dps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

it does not solve the issues, but it let you see them more easily. Sure is more easy to notice someone deal no damage with a dps bar than just checking behind me if one of the other 24 players is a SAM hiding behind the magical dps.

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A single player parser as suggested in here would not solve this issue.

I’m inclined to disagree, you’d have to size the window large enough to view all 24 members, easy enough to do with an unofficial parser with a fair bit of customizational liberty allowed to you but in a hypothetical where an official parser that tracked all members was implemented I cannot imagine how ghastly it would look with the current UI customizations. You’re just better off doing what you actually should be doing, looking at the raid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

A single player parser as suggested in here would not solve this issue.

I’m inclined to disagree, you’d have to size the window large enough to view all 24 members, easy enough to do with an unofficial parser with a fair bit of customizational liberty allowed to you but in a hypothetical where an official parser that tracked all members was implemented I cannot imagine how ghastly it would look with the current UI customizations. You’re just better off doing what you actually should be doing, looking at the raid.

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They could just make it so you only see the 8 people in your alliance. the other 2 will look for their own members

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

The community should never condone active leeching. None of the listed activities are ok, and I would push for these members to be removed from the group were I to notice it.

A damage meter literally does not solve this issue.

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Exactly. A damage meter or parser is not even relevant to discussions of leeching/non-participation, because those cases are obvious. I helped kick someone the other day in a dungeon who was stealthily going to the corner once the boss fight(s) started. That's not 'bads'. That's lazy/leech behavior, and we don't need damage meters to deal with it. I'm all for getting rid of obvious AFKers in the fight.

I still hold that the way it is now, is fine. If someone truly wants it 'for personal use' it's available, but anyone who thinks that if damage meters were built into the game, that they wouldn't be misused in the worst way, by the worst people, they're very much guilty of wishful thinking.