The Ninja Superthread

I see a lot of Rogues (not Ninjas) in DF for Syrcus Tower, trials, etc. Is there some consensus that Rogue will do more damage than Ninja? I'm confused as to what is going on...

Edit: to clarify, people aren't equipping their soulstones

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Originally Posted by Discordia

I see a lot of Rogues (not Ninjas) in DF for Syrcus Tower, trials, etc. Is there some consensus that Rogue will do more damage than Ninja? I'm confused as to what is going on...

Edit: to clarify, people aren't equipping their soulstones

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It simply comes down to these players either being really bad, trolling, or they are testing something that is going to result in less DPS. I'm guessing it's the first. With that being said not using their soulstone will not result in more DPS regardless of what crossclass abilities they take.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

It simply comes down to these players either being really bad, trolling, or they are testing something that is going to result in less DPS. I'm guessing it's the first. With that being said not using their soulstone will not result in more DPS regardless of what crossclass abilities they take.

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If what you say is true, then it's troubling, considering how many have ilvl 130 gear (I'm assuming this is the best gear in the game?) Either that or they're just being carried by their FC.

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Originally Posted by Discordia

If what you say is true, then it's troubling, considering how many have ilvl 130 gear (I'm assuming this is the best gear in the game?) Either that or they're just being carried by their FC.

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They probably just don't want to deal with the mudra lag lol. Either way, it's less dps.

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Originally Posted by Discordia

If what you say is true, then it's troubling, considering how many have ilvl 130 gear (I'm assuming this is the best gear in the game?) Either that or they're just being carried by their FC.

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Dreadwyrm is the only thing that is going to require any real effort these days. Ironworks doesn't have any major difficulty to obtaining it anymore. Ever since they upgraded hunts, and then added in Carboncoats/twine and the weapon upgrade tome to WoD anyone can be full i130.

Above all else not having Huton for 15% increased attack speed (15% faster auto attacks and 15% faster GCD) is not something you can compensate for with more crossclass abilities. That alone will always put Rogue behind Ninja. Then you factor in the 30 Dex increase as well as the other Ninja abilities it's not even debatable.

Ninja AF on a hume, same design as the one initially shown on a lalafell;

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7gmnx3u9.png

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/...pswiob7nii.png

Male Au'Ra Ninja (forward oriented horn), executing ninjutsu, with a different outfit (possibly new tome/raid). Helmet is samurai'ish (image shows head facing us, with the horn visible on the right side of the ninja's face). Both of these outfits have a katana strapped to the small back.

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/...psmawvihuc.png

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6jzauktv.png

Some main differences; the boots have a different silhouette and pattern, there are satchel/pockets on the Au'Ra which is also a long coat that splits at the bottom, whereas on the AF there are throwing daggers (kunai) on the left side and a metal design on the right. AF has a tattered scarf/rag originating from the back mid section, whereas the Au'Ra does not (tail is visible). Head gear on the Au'Ra has a single adornment going straight up from the temple, similar to some samurai helmets, whereas the ninja cowl has a smaller metal accent that does not break the silhouette of the top of the head.

I would not use these at all weights, but this is just a rough estimate of what we're looking at for the Ninja:

STR: 1
WD: 7.301
DET: 0.427
CRT: 0.217
SS: 0.145

Based of napkin math and formulas that aren't supposed to work for the Ninja.

Critting the right abilities seems to matter to some extent.

670 parse with 32% crit vs 660 Parse with 37% crit. We need a good working sim IMO :)

**3 min parses, forgot to mention.

RNG is RNG

Still would be nice to have a working simulator where we can do 10,000 iterations :)

I think Pandabearcat is working on a simulator. I don't know exactly what Jobs he's working on, but I'm sure he'll get around to making one for all jobs.

Good lord that new AF gear looks badass.

Is this guide accurate on AoE? I've been playing it by ear for the most part but are there good numbers on AoE conditionals.

Such as, how many mobs does Death Blossom become worth spamming?
Katon seems to pass Raiton as filler at 3+ mobs.
Doton needs the mobs to be alive for 18s to match Katon.

I read that Kassatsu is better on Doton in the scenarios where Doton is actually worth using.
That every tick is a crit. Seems like Katon > Kassatsu > Doton would be better then, unless that's wrong.

Sorry, just trying to catch up on the theory crafting but back reading this thread is mostly about mudra lag, so I thought I'd just ask.

Death Blossom: 100 potency per mob per GCD.

GCD rotation (with Dancing Edge) potency and complete payoff on DoT ticks (5x Dancing Edge, 5x Aeolian Edge, 5x Shadow Fang, 3x Mutilate): ~262 potency per GCD after wind-up. Double-DoTting is harder to model but it's not significantly better than this if Mutilate isn't going to pay off.

So, if you have the TP to spare, Death Blossom is the practical choice at 3 or more targets. This is before Kisses are applied.

Ninjutsu: Huton is good if things aren't really close to dead (it'll pay off after 4 Death Blossoms, I believe?). Doton is better than Raiton on 2+ targets with >18s uptime, Katon is a toss-up with Raiton at 2 targets and better than Raiton at 3+ targets.

The science doesn't have much more to say than that. I find it is not so easy to decide on Doton sometimes, since your ninjutsu doesn't often align well with pulls. Add in positioning concerns, overall party DPS and the other players' cooldowns, Kassatsu quantum mechanics, and so forth, and AoE ends up being more of an art overall. It is on most jobs, really.

(goad the dragoon -> Full Thrust spammer -> okay, the WHM gets the next one ಠ_ಠ)

Thanks for the information.
Death Blossom at 3 targets seems a bit excessive since it costs so much TP. I guess at 4+ it's a solid choice.

Do you ever multi dot? I find myself doing it at 3 targets with Mutilate, but it's inefficient to try to get the Dancing Edge debuff.
I would get the debuff up on the main target, put my dots on and Mutilate the other two.
Though I'm not sure Mutilate is worth putting up when those targets don't have the slashing debuff, and I could've spent those 2 GCDs on the main target which does.

Shadow Fang takes much longer to put on multiple targets and if you try to keep it up, you won't get time to keep the slashing debuff on any.
So yea, I don't bother with Shadow other than the main target.

Thanks again for the answer SunnyHirose.

Hey guys!!

Just got my second mudra and I have some doubts about mudras.

1) How many seconds (or gcd) is acceptable to perform a 2-way and 3-way mudra? I feel like I'm losing a bit more than 1 gcd to perform 2-way mudra.

2) It looks like there is a lack of synergy between mutilate and Aelion related to first mudra usage. I need to wait some few moments before using my first mudra. This doesn't happens with Gust and Spinning. Anyone has noticed this?

3) THAT mudra lag. Ugh. Pro players are able to hit 100% of mudras without doing a single lag based mistake? Seems impossible to me :/ (130 ping here btw. Not that good, but...). Anyone care to share some tips to this issue?

Well, no one's responded to the questions yet but I want to ask another one anyway.

I've read it's more damage to put up the slashing debuff before dots. So debuffs affect dots.
Now I know that dots snapshot buffs. Is the same true for debuffs?

Now this isn't really important for the slashing debuff since you try to always keep up.
It is relevant for Trick Attack's Vulnerability Up debuff though. Can I snapshot that debuff on a dot?
If not, it seems like a waste to refresh dots within that window.
If it snapshots, it'd be a increase if they happen to line up. If it doesn't, it might be better to Trick Attack after you just refreshed your dots so that you get more direct attacks in.

So does anyone know if dots snapshot Vulnerability Up particularly?

Debuffs like -% Slashing/Piercing DO NOT affect DoTs. You put them before hand however, as they buff the initial attack of said DoT, plus a myriad of other reasons.

Vulnerability does affect DoTs afaik as it just increases their damage taken. It doesn't reduce their stats.

How do I play Ninja with trash? I know my rotation well and can put up good numbers on bosses, but I'm still getting beat every time there's a trash pull.

Doton seems to be hit or miss, depending on if the trash will die fast or slow. Should I be using Shadow Fang + Mutilate on all enemies of that pull, or should I be focusing my main rotation on a single enemy? Should I be using Death Blossom?

If you're with another strong aoe dps (blm), and the trash pulls are massive:
Pre-Huton during the pull (time so ninjutsu is up before the trash is completely gathered), then Internal Release + Blood for Blood while running up to the trash pile > Katon > Kassatsu > Katon > Death Blossom spam (weave in off GCD attacks when up between Death Blossom, invigorate at <600 tp) is what I do. This is easily sustainable when trash pulls are super pulls that are no more than 2 encounters before a boss. If the other dps is good, you sometimes don't even need invigorate.

If you're running with a weaker aoe dps (depends on other player skill/gear), you may want to replace the Kassatsu Katon with Kassatsu Doton, as the ticks are affected by Kassatsu force crit afaik. The longer trash encounter better utilizes Doton uptime, but typically I find that if this is the case, you're likely to be more tp starved during the next pull (if 2-pull before boss), since you expend more tp because of the longer trash encounter.

If you're bottoming out on tp and the trash mobs are not yet dead, you're probably better off not doing big pulls, and likely more efficient single targeting smaller groups. It's pointless to grab big groups if you can't aoe them down quickly, which is a mistake I see a lot of people do.

Don't worry guys sounds like Ninjas are getting positionals and still get to deal with mudra lag AND even better another mostly useless utility spell that lowers threat.

And positional are the best case situation from how the translation sounded.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Don't worry guys sounds like Ninjas are getting positionals and still get to deal with mudra lag AND even better another mostly useless utility spell that lowers threat.

And positional are the best case situation from how the translation sounded.

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Well, they implied that we can extend Fuuton instead of recasting it.
Taking away one of the 3-mudra casts would be really helpful since that's where you really feel the lag.
I can deal with just Suiton, and positionals aren't a big deal coming from Monk.
More utility is good, but it can't be too useful to make NIN mandatory for just that.

There were some new damage moves in the video that they didn't explain.

Aside from Huton duration increase are Ninjas even getting anything worthwhile? I don't like to be a doomsayer but I'm not liking where Ninja heading one bit.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Well, they implied that we can extend Fuuton instead of recasting it.
Taking away one of the 3-mudra casts would be really helpful since that's where you really feel the lag.
I can deal with just Suiton, and positionals aren't a big deal coming from Monk.
More utility is good, but it can't be too useful to make NIN mandatory for just that.

There were some new damage moves in the video that they didn't explain.

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Well lets just hope they balance it well. But i have this feeling its going to be monk or go home for progression all over again.

#ManlyTears!

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Don't worry guys sounds like Ninjas are getting positionals and still get to deal with mudra lag AND even better another mostly useless utility spell that lowers threat.

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Mostly useless? Opening on an add with a 2k TA crit hurts for aggro. If I now have an option to not pull aggro while doing that, I will quite gladly take it. Especially since NIN and MNK currently have no way to manage aggro aside from either not DPSing or dying.

Managing your own aggro can help a lot specially if you are dealing with a low gear Tank, indeed.
As of late I've ended as a NIN tank for CT2 last boss more often than not simply because the Tanks can't keep up :/

Needless to say that never ends well...

But it not only applies to yourself, it seems you can also lower your allies' Aggro... *throws it to the Tank* now the Healer is the Tank!!
Well, TrollNIN is underway.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

But it not only applies to yourself, it seems you can also lower your allies' Aggro... *throws it to the Tank* now the Healer is the Tank!!
Well, TrollNIN is underway.

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To steal a thing from WoW, Misdirect the healer!

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Well lets just hope they balance it well. But i have this feeling its going to be monk or go home for progression all over again.

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lol NIN have been favored over monk for a while and here you are whining about monks. Trick Attack and Goad in addition to similar DPS output without positionals is what put NIN in a category of its own.

Try losing your mudras everytime a boss goes up in the air or you get targeted by a mechanic, then we'll talk. But monks have that oh so "useful' Mantra.

Losing aggro on trick attack really should only happen if your tank sucks, as you will want dancing edge up, and getting that up gives them plenty of time to hold aggro. This is all pretty lackluster, and I don't see how we can compete with the tools that other dps are getting. How will our damage scale with them?

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Originally Posted by Azmaria

Losing aggro on trick attack really should only happen if your tank sucks, as you will want dancing edge up, and getting that up gives them plenty of time to hold aggro. This is all pretty lackluster, and I don't see how we can compete with the tools that other dps are getting. How will our damage scale with them?

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You'll essentially get Houton up and then passively keep it up, which means you'll be executing more Raitons in between Suitons now. There's also more skills in the ninja video and you don't know if the new positionals means they will do more damage than they currently do.

Speculating about dps disparities now is stupid and a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

You'll essentially get Houton up and then passively keep it up, which means you'll be executing more Raitons in between Suitons now. There's also more skills in the ninja video and you don't know if the new positionals means they will do more damage than they currently do.

Speculating about dps disparities now is stupid and a waste of time.

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Yea as it is now you get 1 extra raiton, that's all that changes to mundra rotation. The new combo's could be nice, but given they have the effect of buffing huton's uptime, I doubt they will be our main damage combo. So far it looks like we keep up our dots, keep up dancing edge and weave in new combo's whenever we need to. Pretty boring when you compare to the shake up that everyone else is getting.

Just hard to be excited after seeing all the flashy new things that EVERYONE else is getting, while ninja get a small qol buff.

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Originally Posted by Azmaria

Yea as it is now you get 1 extra raiton, that's all that changes to mundra rotation. The new combo's could be nice, but given they have the effect of buffing huton's uptime, I doubt they will be our main damage combo. So far it looks like we keep up our dots, keep up dancing edge and weave in new combo's whenever we need to. Pretty boring when you compare to the shake up that everyone else is getting.

Just hard to be excited after seeing all the flashy new things that EVERYONE else is getting, while ninja get a small qol buff.

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Using more raiton instead of 3-step mudras also lessens the issue of latency affecting your DPS as you can get a 2-step mudra within the GCD easier than a 3-step one.

And while you may not end up with as many toys or changes, that also means less complications and juggling for your class. Not all change is positive. The ninja abilities video showed several new ones so at least wait a little till we know more about those.

Keep in mind ninja needed less changes because it was a far more fleshed out and complete class as a new job compared to the vanilla jobs. The ninja has an interesting rotation and thematic kit.

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Originally Posted by Azmaria

Yea as it is now you get 1 extra raiton, that's all that changes to mundra rotation. The new combo's could be nice, but given they have the effect of buffing huton's uptime, I doubt they will be our main damage combo. So far it looks like we keep up our dots, keep up dancing edge and weave in new combo's whenever we need to. Pretty boring when you compare to the shake up that everyone else is getting.

Just hard to be excited after seeing all the flashy new things that EVERYONE else is getting, while ninja get a small qol buff.

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NIN is fairly new though. It's been the flashy new thing. The other jobs are catching up.
We might get a bit less but I think people are jumping the gun when we clearly new flashy weaponskills that weren't explained.

NIN needs more time before they can shake up the design as much as the rest.

indeed Huton refresh is a big up
indeed the new skill that allows to reduce the hate is a big up

however, position and the lack of true new ninjutsu.... usefull! it's an big let down!
the cycle is still crancky (thanks the 2 dot with different duration with one into a combo of 2 skill), the mudra lag is still there, the useless ninjutsu skill are still the same...seriously i was hoping for more... being the last jobs don't means we are perfect, no?

we have a lot of issues that affect directly our cycle and dps.... and they want to throw on top of this the positionning? do any dev play ninja? no because i begin to wonder!

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

lol NIN have been favored over monk for a while and here you are whining about monks. Trick Attack and Goad in addition to similar DPS output without positionals is what put NIN in a category of its own.

Try losing your mudras everytime a boss goes up in the air or you get targeted by a mechanic, then we'll talk. But monks have that oh so "useful' Mantra.

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And monks have always been the go too melee for progression and ninja barely does more damage then monk you can't be Dragon kick and 20% mantra for progression. I guess if you tank really sucks(get a new one) the aggro thing will be useful. Also most peoples mudra lag its a dps loss to use raiton so a lot of ninjas are using fuma shuriken so no refreshing Huton really isn't that awsome.

Adding positionals to Ninja is very souring. The last thing Ninja needs is the same arbitrary tediousness that plagues the other two melee; here's to hoping it's not too invasive like Dragoon's recent positional overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

And monks have always been the go too melee for progression and ninja barely does more damage then monk you can't be Dragon kick and 20% mantra for progression. I guess if you tank really sucks(get a new one) the aggro thing will be useful. Also most peoples mudra lag its a dps loss to use raiton so a lot of ninjas are using fuma shuriken so no refreshing Huton really isn't that awsome.

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You say that like groups don't usually have two melee. Only need one MNK for DK and Mantra.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

You say that like groups don't usually have two melee. Only need one MNK for DK and Mantra.

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Or you know double monk could be the go to thing again. It really isn't an issue to me i can play either well i just prefer not to have 2 melees dancing around and then dancing around aoes and white fires and shit like that to get each other killed.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Or you know double monk could be the go to thing again. It really isn't an issue to me i can play either well i just prefer not to have 2 melees dancing around and then dancing around aoes and white fires and shit like that to get each other killed.

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Has double MNK been a thing since NIN released? I know some of the first groups through FCoB had double MNK, but MNK/NIN made it into the first 5 groups, so. . . And I doubt that having a DK slave for one MNK will be a bigger DPS boost than having TA available.